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Who does more for animal welfare?

RSPCA
72% (13 votes)
ALF
28% (5 votes)
Total votes: 18

Posted By

Anonymous
Jan 17 2006 22:10

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Fatty
Jan 18 2006 02:03

The RSPCA are well known for their "make-you-feel-bad-for-not-donating" adverts wink

Lazlo_Woodbine
Jan 18 2006 12:52

The Salvation Army do more for the poor than anarchists do.

the button
Jan 18 2006 12:58
Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
The Salvation Army do more for the poor than anarchists do.

.... as indeed do the DSS.

BB
Jan 18 2006 13:08
the button wrote:
Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
The Salvation Army do more for the poor than anarchists do.

.... as indeed do the DSS.

Comein atcha! grin

Lazy Riser
Jan 18 2006 13:17

Hi

I don’t know about you, but I find being asked to sponsor both a child in Africa and a dog in Battersea during the same ad-break slightly off putting. It’s a struggle keeping a roof over the heads of people in our own back yards, and we’re signing direct debits to sponsor dolphins off the Japanese coast.

By the time you add in the “teach a man to fish…” style third world sponsorship adds, how oblivious these people are to straight-forward poverty at home, leads me to conclude that the “Enemy is Middle Class” after all.

Quote:
The Salvation Army do more for the poor than anarchists do.

Autonomy, comrades, autonomy.

Quote:
.... as indeed do the DSS.

The DSS are much more willing to help middle class people who have fallen on hard times, by calling up their mates in the rest of the public sector, signalling the release of some “regeneration” vacancies they’ve been keeping to one side for just such an emergency. The “poor” face some extremely unpleasant hoops to jump through before they get a sniff of cash, try jacking your forklift truck driving job in for a bit of funded training as a Teacher or a Regeneration Consultant, see how far it gets you.

The stay-at-home wife of the local spiv MD, on the other hand, that’s a different story. The state will lavish resources inserting them in a cosy position suitable for someone of their high social status.

Love

LR

wheresmyshoes
Jan 18 2006 13:52
Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
The Salvation Army do more for the poor than anarchists do.

Ooooooh snap!

RSPCA definatly

petey
Jan 18 2006 15:20
Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
The Salvation Army do more for the poor than anarchists do.

yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyup

WeTheYouth
Jan 18 2006 16:23

Im sure anarchists would do alot more for the poor if we had the same numbers as the salvation army, Imagine food not bombs if they had half the funds of the salvation army it would do plenty more; and im sure the ALF would do more for animal welfare if they had the same funding and support that the RSPCA does.

Caiman del Barrio
Jan 18 2006 16:33

Fuck the fucking ALF to fucking death.

Fuck the fucking SHAC stickers encouraging you to "politely" call HLS, complete with phone numbers. What an utter load of cunts.

Fuck all animal rights extremists/radicals. Those AR types who don't resort to such misanthropic pseudo-terrorism should work harder to disassociate themselves from the ALF et al, or just leave the movement altogether.

WeTheYouth
Jan 18 2006 16:41
Quote:
Yea, they could buy napalm and ICBM's.

Probably a bit too far for the majority of the ALF. They would use campaigns which meant not appealing to the state for intervention.

Lazlo_Woodbine
Jan 18 2006 16:47
Alan_is_Fucking_Dead wrote:
Fuck the fucking ALF to fucking death.

I applaud your eek

WeTheYouth
Jan 18 2006 16:48
Jack wrote:
What, because the state to maintains the exploitation of one species by another? roll eyes

No because anarchists should have more interest in undoing injustices without appealing for state intervention.

JDMF
Jan 18 2006 16:50
Alan_is_Fucking_Dead wrote:
Fuck the fucking ALF to fucking death.

Fuck the fucking SHAC stickers encouraging you to "politely" call HLS, complete with phone numbers. What an utter load of cunts.

Fuck all animal rights extremists/radicals. Those AR types who don't resort to such misanthropic pseudo-terrorism should work harder to disassociate themselves from the ALF et al, or just leave the movement altogether.

you sound hysterical mate. Wipe the foam off your mouth and take a pill of something homeopathic.

Caiman del Barrio
Jan 18 2006 16:57
JDMF wrote:
Alan_is_Fucking_Dead wrote:
Fuck the fucking ALF to fucking death.

Fuck the fucking SHAC stickers encouraging you to "politely" call HLS, complete with phone numbers. What an utter load of cunts.

Fuck all animal rights extremists/radicals. Those AR types who don't resort to such misanthropic pseudo-terrorism should work harder to disassociate themselves from the ALF et al, or just leave the movement altogether.

you sound hysterical mate. Wipe the foam off your mouth and take a pill of something homeopathic.

Shit, that convinced me. What's the HLS' number again?? roll eyes

WeTheYouth
Jan 18 2006 16:57
Jack wrote:
WeTheYouth wrote:
No because anarchists should have more interest in undoing injustices without appealing for state intervention.

What do the ALF have to do with undoing injustice?

And anarcho's don't 'not appeal to state intervention' out of some dogmatic wank, but because the role of the state means it's never going to be useful for working class emancipation.

The ALF want to end animal cruelty, that is undoing an injustice is it not? I dont agree with the pseudo-terrorism way they go about what they do.

Quote:
Just because something is being done by the state doesn't mean it's bad inherently

So the state can be a way to do good? Is that what your saying?

JoeMaguire
Jan 18 2006 18:16

Personally I tend to avoid AR type threads, because they have the same tired individuals, repeating the same comments that were refuted some time ago....if people want intelligent responses then PM me, I dont normally bite unless needless provoked.... wink

In answer to the question, its the RSPCA of course (although it does regularly put animals to sleep and supports culls against wildlife). Because the ALF is an organisation which isnt in the least bit interested in animal welfare, rather its enforcing animal rights by using direct methods against animal exploiters. So alas this thread speaks volumes about some peoples ignorance roll eyes

Volin
Jan 18 2006 18:26
Jack wrote:
What do the ALF have to do with undoing injustice?

And anarcho's don't 'not appeal to state intervention' out of some dogmatic wank, but because the role of the state means it's never going to be useful for working class emancipation.

The idea of the ALF, or just about any 'AR' group using illegal direct action, is to rescue animals from an institutionally accepted cruelty and to put pressure on individuals and companies supporting or carrying this out. So, of course it has to be done outside and contrary to the state. The RSPCA in its time has done a lot of brilliant welfarist-type work, without which would have resulted in countless animals dying of preventable diseases, on the streets or because of particularly barbaric owners. Yet at the same time they could never go far enough. In Scotland, the SSPCA (our equivalent) is notorious for OKing some of the worst examples of disease and suffering in factory farms. Like any typical government backed, 'reformist' organisation that's what they have to do. It's also completely rediculous; the greatest amount of harm we commit against animals is in the factory farms, breeding warhouses and indeed animal labs. Things like ALF provide only limited change, and though they're (unfortuneately) associated with the most stupid and annoying protests, vandalism and attacks, they represent a necessary direction.

Lazy Riser
Jan 18 2006 19:14

Hi

Both organisations are approximately as bad as each other. The question is not “which one is best for animals”, but “which one inconveniences the working class least”. In this respect the RSPCA wins. Marginally.

Love

LR

ginger
Jan 18 2006 23:56

I think the thing that pisses me off the most is that the same people who should be pissed off when anarchists are described as cloaked terrorists throwing bombs into crowds then come out with descriptions of animal rights activists zeroxed from the capitalist mass media.

So animal rights activists spend all their time digging up grannies or throwing acid in the face of innocent working class folk just trying to do their jobs? No, they work bloody hard building grass roots support for their campaigns, at which they've been more successful than most of us. Personally I find their commitment, determination and imagination inspiring.

My first ever political activity was when I saw a picket outside a circus in the town I grew up near. I joined them for the next few days, after being convinced by their eloquent arguments of the unnecessary cruelty of using animals in circuses. Nowadays almost every circus coming to the UK leaves its animals in Europe. Live animal exports of calves bound for veal crates in Holland/Belgium have, I think, also completely stopped. Again, this was a combination of activists taking direct action and building grass roots support so that they weren't isolated - indeed the direct action against live animal exports was snowballing to include all sorts of people who hadn't previously taken matters into their own hands.

To take the quote from the "Meaningful action" thread:

Solidarity wrote:
Meaningful action, for revolutionaries, is whatever increases the confidence, the autonomy, the initiative, the participation, the solidarity, the equalitarian tendencies and the self-activity of the masses and whatever assists in their demystification. Sterile and harmful action is whatever reinforces the passivity of the masses, their apathy, their cynicism, their differentiation through hierarchy, their alienation, their reliance on others to do things for them and the degree to which they can therefore be manipulated by others - even by those allegedly acting on their behalf.

From that definition I'd say animal rights activists have done better at increasing participation, humanitarian tendancies (which I think is connected to "equalitarian tendencies") as well as "demystifying" capitalism in terms of what happens in the pursuit of profit and alienation of working class people from what they eat.

Lazlo_Woodbine
Jan 19 2006 00:05

I support you, ginger. You're about to get called a cock lots, though

jef costello
Jan 19 2006 00:11
Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
I support you, ginger. You're about to get called a cock lots, though

Damn right, its a shame that the boards seem to be so anti ALF and posters take such pleasure in goading vegans.

God I hate those RSPCA ads, they make me want to torture animals, or at least the fucks that get paid for making them smile

jef costello
Jan 19 2006 00:47
Jack wrote:
ginger wrote:
My first ever political activity was when I saw a picket outside a circus in the town I grew up near.

Maybe monkeys LIKE riding little bikes?

Monkeys like smoking cigars and wearing Fezs, everyone knows that.

Some of them rollerskate too.

lucy82
Jan 19 2006 06:58

actually the RSPCA are twats. we had a house full of kittens left empty and the RSPCA refused to help. They got really arsey about it and told the housing officer it was her problem. there were twelve feral kittens living behind a cooker and the mother was really sick. they'd been locked in an abandoned flat for ages. she threatened to leave them on the RSPCAs doorstep and then tell the press which oddly enough, shifted them fast enough to get the kittens out of the flat. they probably got put down poor little bastards.

we've had problems with them before with abandoned dogs etc so we don't even bother asking them to help anymore . they are just rubbish whereas leigh dog and cats home is great. they will take them in and rehome them, so do a lot of the small volutary shelters, run with nothing like the money the RSPCA gets.

lucy82
Jan 19 2006 06:58
Jef Costello wrote:
Monkeys like smoking cigars and wearing Fezs, everyone knows that.Some of them rollerskate too.

grin

JoeMaguire
Jan 19 2006 17:52
Tommy Ascaso wrote:
Oi! ginger's not the only ex-Womble on here, and IMHO ginger is very sound, I just don't agree about animal rights activists, obviously they don't spend all their time chucking rape alarms into guttering, but a lot of the anarchist animal rights types do and are into militant animal rights stuff.

:)

The pursuit for a libertarian end is not uniform, and sometimes it comes with compromises, but in the description you give as long as they dont attack/alienate working people, recognising its the only social group capable of bringing meaningful change, I see no problem.

Steven.
Jan 19 2006 20:43
lucy82 wrote:
Jef Costello wrote:
Monkeys like smoking cigars and wearing Fezs, everyone knows that.Some of them rollerskate too.

grin

That made me spit my coffee out. Ha ha

Actually the chimp Cheetah from Tarzan does smoke cigars. I think he drinks whisky too. He wears one of them golfing peaks though instead of a fez sad

JDMF
Jan 19 2006 21:23
Tommy Ascaso wrote:

They're more working class than most anarchist animal rights activists...

do you have any data to back that statement up? I know it would be convenient if that was the case for your arguments sake...

The only actual research that I know of was done in finland where someone did research on social movements in 90's especially on the enviro and animal movements and concluded that the animal movement was significantly more working class based than the environmental movement, and draw interesting conclusions from that saying that this would explain their level of militancy and reliance on direct action rather than using existing official and accepted channels of political change set out by the state.

AnarchoAl
Jan 19 2006 21:32

Ginger's an ex-womble and ex-AR activist who's still done more for the class struggle than, say, Jack. Unless you've got your local social housing body scared of you, Jack? (for example, there's no need to produce a huge list of ginger's activities)

From now on, I'm insulting people by calling them ex-AYN...

ginger
Jan 19 2006 21:34
Tommy Ascaso wrote:
So lab technicians at somewhere that does animal testing are not workers?

They're more working class than most anarchist animal rights activists...

"While you are dismissive of the post of lab technician, it may be more attractive than you think. Take a look at www.jobs.ac.uk, key in the words "biology" and "technician" and you'll find an array of jobs (many requiring a degree and paying around £20,000)"

http://education.independent.co.uk/further/article312598.ece

Anyway, I'm not suggesting that lab technicians should be attacked. In most campaigns I think there's an important (vital?) place for communication with the workers inside and maybe even it will bring up the opportunity to discuss why they are coerced to do something that they must know the animal is suffering for, in pursuit of profit. Considering a science degree seems to be required for a lab tech job, presumably these people are also keen for the development of science, and up for a discussion as to how good for scientific knowledge animal testing is, or is not.

Steven.
Jan 19 2006 21:56
AnarchoAl wrote:
From now on, I'm insulting people by calling them ex-AYN...

I was ex-AYN and womble embarrassed embarrassed

And c'mon jack's only taking the piss, he of all people wouldn't expect anyone to post their revolutionary CV. Tommy Ascaso's post seems tongue in cheek to me too.

I would've thought most lab technicians would believe in the utility of animal testing - anyone got any data on it?

Anyway...

I'm sposed to be going out, don't know why I'm still talking to you lot