Are you...

Outside & Against
21% (8 votes)
Outside & For
10% (4 votes)
Inside & Against
41% (16 votes)
Inside & For
28% (11 votes)
Total votes: 39

Posted By

meanoldman
Sep 15 2005 15:33

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meanoldman
Sep 15 2005 15:33

What's your take on unions?

(Interpret outside as 'I don't want a be and am not a member of a union', so you're inside if you want your workplace to be unionised)

Mike Harman
Sep 15 2005 15:42

Inside (sort of, trying to be), and against in most circumstances. Haven't posted 'cos I'm not sure what "against" means.

Steve
Sep 15 2005 16:17

I think your options would not include one for many anarcho-syndicalists who operate inside and outside the present unions and are for unions but not in their present form. Doesn’t really fit into these poll things does it?

You need an ‘other’ or ‘more sophisticated approach’ option.

meanoldman
Sep 15 2005 16:23

By union I mean unions in their present form, not an anarcho-syndicalist union or something like the wobblies. Anarcho-syndicalists count as against in my schema.

Steve
Sep 15 2005 16:50

Well how about an 'inside and outside & against' option? tongue

JDMF
Sep 15 2005 17:04

where do i fit with this attitude:

- if the situation is ripe, organise a syndicalist union like IWW. If not then...

- if possible, organise a rank and file union. if not, then...

- if there is a union already, organise within that, but with all the typical anarchist criticism.

i guess thats kind of inside & outside, against and for grin

meanoldman
Sep 15 2005 17:16

Nah. That's inside & against.

Although this poll is failing as you're all pedantic bastards. tongue

Lazy Riser
Sep 15 2005 17:42

Hi

I'm outside and against, I suppose. The TUC leadership would definitely see me as “against”, so why argue? And I'm self-employed, so what union should I join?

Love

Chris

JDMF
Sep 15 2005 17:58
Lazy Riser wrote:
And I'm self-employed, so what union should I join?

IWW

Lazy Riser
Sep 15 2005 18:19

Hi

IWW won't let me in if I have the power to hire and fire. Which I do.

Love

Chris

alibadani
Sep 15 2005 18:19

I agree with the position of the left communists: The ICC, the IBRP, the Bordigists, the councilists etc. Unions are the enemy of the worker. They were useful in the ascendant phase of capitalism, when major, long-lasting reforms were possible. But in capitalism's period of decadence unions have been sabotaging every single workers struggle. I don't think it matters what type of unions there are, or who the leadership is, or how the unions are structured. Workers must struggle both outside and against the unions.

The recent Gate Gourmet strike was done outside the unions and was eventually sabotaged by them. Just the last example in a long series of "betrayals". This pamphlet is long as hell but is worth reading.

http://en.internationalism.org/pamphlets/unions.htm

JDMF
Sep 15 2005 18:58
Lazy Riser wrote:
IWW won't let me in if I have the power to hire and fire. Which I do.

then how are you self employed?

PaulMarsh
Sep 15 2005 19:13
alibadani wrote:
I agree with the position of the left communists: The ICC, the IBRP, the Bordigists, the councilists etc.

That's something you don't see everyday of the week!

Lazlo_Woodbine
Sep 15 2005 21:28
alibadani wrote:
I don't think it matters what type of unions there are, or who the leadership is, or how the unions are structured.

What -- so no organisation at work at all? The anarcho-syndicalists were still unionists.

Gate Gourmet is also far from being over yet.

888
Sep 15 2005 21:43

THe "against" and "for" definition is a bit weird, meanoldman. I voted "for", but not by your definition.

meanoldman
Sep 15 2005 22:02

embarrassed

Take the wildcat pamphlet as the definition of Outside & Against and make up the rest from there.

Lazy Riser
Sep 15 2005 23:06

Hi

Quote:
IWW won't let me in if I have the power to hire and fire. Which I do.
Quote:
then how are you self employed?

Apart from hiring cleaners, plumbers and pizza delivery technicians? The many services I am prepared to offer include supplier appraisal and personnel assessment. I hope you know the secret Anarchist handshake, comrade.

Even when I was the lowliest of wage slaves my colleagues and I were more than capable of forcing out (or in) other employees as appropriate, closed shop stylee. To my mind, that’s the power to hire and fire, which has always given me pause for thought with regard to this particular IWW membership clause.

Love

Chris

JDMF
Sep 16 2005 07:20

so you think that because you can hire a plumber, or you could be in a position where you know that your work mate has downloaded porn to his computer at work and that knowledge could get her fired, you are in a position of hire and fire?

Well mate, how many contradictions can you find from the IWW preambles opening "The working class and the employing class have nothing in common"? ("well, they do breathe the same air, so i dont really agree with that. Also, sometimes they might have same friends, or even go to the same football match, so i dont think thats very fair to say")

darren red star
Sep 16 2005 07:33

Well I voted inside and for, as being inside one of the better tuc unions, thr RMT and inside the IWW, I am for both of them

creepyoller
Sep 16 2005 08:32

To steal a quote;

'I believe every communist and anarchist worthy of their salt ought to be a member of the IWW, whatever other union they belong to. This is our union the union of the reds. It could do much to stop the rot in the unions, to steel the stand being made across industry and workplaces, to coordinate the struggle in the fight we are in - and in the fight we want to get into, for the big picture. It could do much to put the horse back in front of the cart and restate that our aim is a classless, wage-free, communist world.'

Taken from the review of 'Wobblies! A graphic history of the Industrial Workers of the World' at

http//www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/592/wobblies.htm

Lazy Riser
Sep 16 2005 08:40

Hi

Quote:
so you think that because you can hire a plumber, or you could be in a position where you know that your work mate has downloaded porn to his computer at work and that knowledge could get her fired, you are in a position of hire and fire?

Not really, but I think interviewing job applicants may well seal the deal.

Love

Chris

Steve
Sep 16 2005 09:08
creepyoller wrote:
To steal a quote;

'I believe every communist and anarchist worthy of their salt ought to be a member of the IWW, whatever other union they belong to. This is our union: the union of the reds. It could do much to stop the rot in the unions, to steel the stand being made across industry and workplaces, to coordinate the struggle in the fight we are in - and in the fight we want to get into, for the big picture. It could do much to put the horse back in front of the cart and restate that our aim is a classless, wage-free, communist world.'

Taken from the review of 'Wobblies! A graphic history of the Industrial Workers of the World' at

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/592/wobblies.htm

Very nice. Unfortunately it was written by a member of the IWW so he would say that wouldn't he? wink

oisleep
Sep 16 2005 09:17

i thought you didn't work lazy r

JDMF
Sep 16 2005 09:20
oisleep wrote:
i thought you didn't work lazy r

..and i thought he is living off the profits he made on the stock market (=being a capitalist) wink

JDMF
Sep 16 2005 09:22
Steve wrote:
creepyoller wrote:
To steal a quote;

'I believe every communist and anarchist worthy of their salt ought to be a member of the IWW, whatever other union they belong to. This is our union: the union of the reds. It could do much to stop the rot in the unions, to steel the stand being made across industry and workplaces, to coordinate the struggle in the fight we are in - and in the fight we want to get into, for the big picture. It could do much to put the horse back in front of the cart and restate that our aim is a classless, wage-free, communist world.'

Taken from the review of 'Wobblies! A graphic history of the Industrial Workers of the World' at

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/592/wobblies.htm

Very nice. Unfortunately it was written by a member of the IWW so he would say that wouldn't he? :wink:

thats a circular situation which is hard to escape mate. Since because of what he wrote if he wasn't a member of the IWW, he would not be "communist and anarchist worthy of their salt" would he wink

Lazy Riser
Sep 16 2005 09:49

Hi

oisleep wrote:
i thought you didn't work lazy r

I try to avoid it, but I feel the need to make a contribution.

Quote:
..and i thought he is living off the profits he made on the stock market (=being a capitalist)

Mate, I'm telling you, I couldn't afford to be self-employed if I didn’t have my golden parachute. Do you have a pension, by the way? Where's the money invested?

Love

Chris

JDMF
Sep 16 2005 09:52
Lazy Riser wrote:

Mate, I'm telling you, I couldn't afford to be self-employed if I didn’t have my golden parachute. Do you have a pension, by the way? Where's the money invested?

didn't you say that you have been "lucky" on the stockmarket? or did you just take your pensionmoney and live off that?

Refused
Sep 16 2005 09:54

Maybe he's a teacher.

Lazy Riser
Sep 16 2005 11:59

Hi

As this is meant to be about the unions, I think it's best if we pick this up on "+ insults". See you soon.

Love

Chris

McCormick
Sep 18 2005 15:07

Inside and against, although that needs some clarification.

I'm against the idea that we can transform the existing unions into revolutionary working class organisations, but the reality is that if you are involved in workplace activity you are going to be involved at some level with the trade unions. So how do we relate to them?

I think we do what we can at the most rank and file level (which means as members and in some circumstances, stewards/H &S reps.) whilst encouraging our fellow workers (yes, I'm an IWW member!) to organise themselves and to take control of their own activity, which will mean inevitable conflict with the union bureaucrats and official structures.

The IWW in Britain seems to me to be an attempt by people to create networks of militants who see this dual approach as useful. I'd agree with the reviewer of Wobblies! that (anti-state) communists and anarchists should join the IWW, if it makes sense in their circumstances.

red n black star