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flouride possible in our water

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halo2
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Jul 12 2014 21:58
flouride possible in our water

Hello everyone,

I am very curious about the possibility of dangerous flouride in our tap water. How do we know this is the truth? Personally
I like to keep a very open mind and what if actually the water is safe and it is a scheme to increase sales of bottled water.
Anyway I feel like I need to know, can not find any answer from both water companies and the government.

It does seem though dangerous chemicals could be added, why are we not forming groups to take these chemicals and
Dump it outside political buildings! !

If you know me I am always a nice and polite person whom always shows respect. But I want to seriously fight corruption
By any means.

I have to admit I am not 100% sure the plans behind this forum, I am currently researching this site though.

I am angry at this country and sick of political corruption. I see a few meetings around London, if there any upcoming meetings
Or events I will try my best to attend.

Edit....

I should mention that there are 14 of us that all feel the same way. We bassicly meet and discuss, now we want to take action.

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RedEd
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Jul 12 2014 23:29

Adding fluorides to drinking water is advocated by all sorts of professional bodies including both the UK and US dental associations despite the very reason they advocate it -the prevention of tooth decay- being against the commercial interests of their membership. Some drinking supplies do have levels of fluoride that are higher than is good for those using them, but these are naturally occurring fluorides, not usually ones that have been added, though industrial accidents in the process of adding fluorides can be dangerous. But, yeah, so can all industrial accidents and the history of accidents in this sphere is basically negligible from what I can tell.

There are lots of reasons to be suspicious of governments, but fluoridation of water is not, in my opinion, one of them.

halo2
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Jul 13 2014 01:33

Well in my mind we do not know what type of flouride it is and my biggest question is why consider dental care over other health issues? Why not add vitamins?

Southern water will not comment on the supply of flouride, do we not have the right to this information?

Could you confirm that these are natural flourides? perhaps they are and this story is out to increase bottled water sales. In the other case just look at the uproar about the subject across the UK and US.

Belgium is one of many countries that do not support flouride, their dental problems over the last 5 years have decreased more so than ours.

Also please find me the case study in which flouride is proven to be beneficial to dental care. Apparently the flouride chemically removes bacteria, is that 100% safe for our skin?

A friend of mine works for a company called BTU and he said over the past few months every time he seen flouride it looks different.

Fleur
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Jul 13 2014 03:08

Fluoride is the 13th most abundant element on the planet and is found naturally in water, as well as the soil and foods. There's a large amount of drinking water which is not topped up by fluoridation because there are already sufficient levels of fluoride naturally occurring to help prevent dental decay and there are many, many studies available which extrapolate a correlation between fluoridation of the water supply to improved dental health. Here's one from the CDC -
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5014a1.htm
There are far fewer credible studies indicating adverse effects from fluoridation, where fluoride is at an acceptable safe level.There has been problems with dental and skeletal fluorosis in China, where the levels of fluoride are too high, caused by naturally occurring high levels of fluoride in water, coupled with environmental pollution caused by burning fluoride-rich coal. The levels of fluoride around the London area will be much lower than there. If you are unsure of the beneficial effects of fluoride on dental health, you can peruse this paper on medieval archeology, in which they find that the dental health of people who lived in coastal areas, and were therefore exposed to higher levels of fluoride in their diet, was much better than those living inland.
http://dro.dur.ac.uk/6260/1/6260.pdf

A more detailed study of regional caries rates in England showed that they also increased in both monastic and non-monastic sites from early to late periods (CaCell 2005); caries rates were lower in coastal sites overall which reflects the preventative nature of the high fluoride content of fish.

Southern Water will comment on the levels of fluoride in the water, they have a legal obligation to do so. You just need to ask the right department.

There have been conspiracy theories concerning the fluoridation of water since it first started. It used to be a communist plot, now it's a favourite of the people who don't like vaccinations and think that juice boxes are turning everyone gay (yes, I'm looking at you Alex Jones and Joe Mercola) It seems very unlikely to be a plot to get people to buy bottled water because most water companies, and I'm especially thinking of those in the US where this theory is most popular, are private, for profit businesses and it would seem a little counter-productive to put something in the water to try and drive their business away.

What is a natural fluoride? The fluoride added to the water is synthesized in chemical factories to the specifications of the water providers, in much the same way that iron supplements or vitamin C pills are made. We ingest chemicals all the time, with everything we eat and drink. Adding vitamins to water would be impractical because they would need to be added at levels of concentrations much higher than the levels at which fluoride is added in order for them to be effective. Some places vitamins are added to food - where I live folic acid is added to flour, which had dramatically reduced the levels of some birth defects but it wouldn't be a practical thing to do with water.

Belgium's overall dental health may have improved but it has in most places where people have access to good dental treatment. People do tend to take care of their teeth much better than previous generations. Perhaps the overall comparison to the UK can be accounted for by better dentistry in Belgium? When I lived in the UK I had a NHS dentist. From what I gather now, NHS dentists are a dying breed and the costs of dentistry are quite prohibitive.

Fluoride does not chemically reduce bacteria, it redeposits fluoride on tooth enamel which has been denuded by acid in food and drinks and it helps neutralise the acid which causes the tooth decay. It will not kill any bacteria on skin and the quantities in the water would have no effect anyway, certainly not in comparison with soap.

Some people find the fluoridation of drinking water to be a massive attack on their civil liberties. I find that there are far greater assaults on my personal liberty than something which has overall beneficial effects on dental health.

The solution if you're worried would be just not to drink it. You can buy bottled water, although much of the bottled water available is just tap water which has been ionised. Or you can get a filter which is supposed to remove mineral contents (whether they do or not, I don't know.) One thing worth bearing in mind, if a UK resident, is that there is one particular beverage which has a far higher fluoride level than any glass of water. I get through about five or six cups a day. It's called a cup of tea.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100714104059.htm

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Joseph Kay
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Jul 13 2014 06:37

This page from the NHS website includes links to studies on safety and efficacy: http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/fluoride/Pages/Introduction.aspx

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Serge Forward
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Jul 13 2014 07:33

Decent NHS dentists are indeed a dying breed. And you still have to pay a fair whack for NHS if you're working. Therefore, I'll take the fluoride, thanks very much.

halo2
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Jul 13 2014 09:34

Okay so you all know 100% that it is natural flouride being added? I totally understand and agree perhaps natural flouride could be a good idea. Phone up and ask southern water where the supply of their flouride is coming from, can never get an answer. If I can get some evidence that it is natural flouride I'd be a heap happier.

Also toothpaste and mouth wash contain flouride and it is important that both are not consumed, shouldn't that be an indication of the potential health risk? You all shown me the benefits of dental care but what about long term health issues? If flouride makes my teeth better what does it do to the rest of my body?

And what about the idea of adding vitamins?

Why go through all this trouble adding a substance that has the same name as a toxic waste bi product,
And go through the trouble of convincing people that it is healthy. If it was said that a whole bunch of trace vitamins being added to water wouldn't that make more sense?

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Chilli Sauce
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Jul 13 2014 10:02

I remember heating that some parts of the medical establishment had considered advocating adding statins to the water supply - although I think some of the excitement around statins has died down, so I haven't heard much more about recently. But, Jesus, can you imagine the conspiracy theories that would come out of that?

But, Halo, basically, yeah governments do a lot of really f*cked up things, but we don't need elaborate hidden explanations for what they do and why they do it. There's a lot of real immediate issues that are really going to hit people's health. Cuts to hospitals and NHS funding and inadequate housing - those things are damaging the health of an entire generation. If you can get 14 people together to discuss fluoride in the water, could I suggest you maybe change the focus a bit to things like that?

halo2
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Jul 13 2014 10:12

Do you really think that flouride is the only thing we talk about?

I guess everyone here has a closed mind and will believe that it is natural occurring flouride, all I am asking for is evidence.

Give me a day or two and I will upload the pictures of flouride my buddy at BTU has taken, sometimes it is white other times yellowish, sometimes it comes in metal containers and other times in sacks.

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Joseph Kay
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Jul 13 2014 10:18

Fluoride is just an F- ion. Elemental Fluorine (F2) is pretty toxic, but that's because it's highly reactive. In its ionic form, F-, it's already 'taken' an electron from another atom which means it's much more stable and much less reactive.

If that still sounds like a toxic chemical, remember table salt is made up of sodium (Na+) and chloride (Cl-) ions. Salt can also be toxic in large quantities, but isn't anywhere near as toxic as chlorine gas (Cl2).

The (UK) legal limit on fluoride in water is 1.5 milligrams per litre, which is below the concentrations where adverse effects are known to occur (a milligram is a thousandth of a gram so we're talking a very small amount of fluoride).

redsdisease
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Jul 13 2014 10:23
halo2 wrote:
Also toothpaste and mouth wash contain flouride and it is important that both are not consumed, shouldn't that be an indication of the potential health risk?

You don't use toothpaste?

halo2 wrote:
You all shown me the benefits of dental care but what about long term health issues? If flouride makes my teeth better what does it do to the rest of my body?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation#Safety

halo2 wrote:
And what about the idea of adding vitamins?

Perhaps you should read people's posts before complaining that they haven't responded to your questions. From fleurs post:

fleur wrote:
Adding vitamins to water would be impractical because they would need to be added at levels of concentrations much higher than the levels at which fluoride is added in order for them to be effective. Some places vitamins are added to food - where I live folic acid is added to flour, which had dramatically reduced the levels of some birth defects but it wouldn't be a practical thing to do with water.

halo2 wrote:
Why go through all this trouble adding a substance that has the same name as a toxic waste bi product,

You know that water is also a toxic waste biproduct, YET THE CORRUPT GOVERNMENT PUMPS IT INTO EVERY SCHOOL, HOSPITAL, AND PARK IN THE COUNTRY. AND THEY REFUSE TO TELL ME THE SOURCE FROM WHICH IT WAS SYNTHESIZED. WHAT ARE THEY HIDING!?

halo2 wrote:
And go through the trouble of convincing people that it is healthy. If it was said that a whole bunch of trace vitamins being added to water wouldn't that make more sense?

That's actually a really good question; if iflouride really isn't good for you, like you seem to think, what is the point of the government adding it in the first place? Assuming the worst, who actually benefits? I doubt the flourine industry makes enough money off of it to make it worth funding the giant conspiracy that people allege.

Something I never understood is why ant-flourideization people don't seem to mind the use of chlorine in water, despite the fact that that shit is a legit poison.

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Chilli Sauce
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Jul 13 2014 10:25
Quote:
Do you really think that flouride is the only thing we talk about?

Well, mate, that's a fairly reasonable thing to take away from what you wrote in the OP.

But, no offense intended, what else do you discuss?

halo2
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Jul 13 2014 11:04

Okay so now you are arguing that even if it is toxic waste it is okay, because it is such a low level and less

Does natural occuring flouride have the same dental benefits as un natural flouride?

I have agreed that natural flouride maybe okay but I will not agree that unnaturally created flouride has the same benefit to our teeth. Lets also point out I have not said that natural flouride is bad for your health. could this whole conspiracy been brought up to increase sales of bottled water? If none of you agree with me there then I seriously cant believe how closed minded you guys are

Also chlorine has always been necessary to ensure clean water, has flouride always been necessary?

Also if you like to make fun then that is upto you, in fact if you are going through the trouble of uploading pictures and writing a bunch of crap to try and offend someone on the Internet then I really feel sorry for you.

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Chilli Sauce
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Jul 13 2014 11:08

I didn't think it was possible for a statement to be a parody of itself, but there you go:

Quote:
If none of you agree with me there then I seriously cant believe how closed minded you guys are.

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Jul 13 2014 11:14

Halo, this is a class struggle website. We view the problems of the world not in terms of back room deals with small cliques plotting on global scale, but rather as a result of the natural, material functioning of capitalism which pitches the well-being of the many against the profit and wealth of the few.

And you don't need conspiracies to explain that, you experience everyday when you go to work or pay your landlord or buy groceries. If you want to discuss those things, people are going to be more than happy to do that. But discussing fluoride in the water? You're in the wrong place.

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Joseph Kay
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Jul 13 2014 11:16

What is 'unnatural fluoride'?

Spassmaschine
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Jul 13 2014 11:18
redsdisease wrote:
You know that water is also a toxic waste biproduct, YET THE CORRUPT GOVERNMENT PUMPS IT INTO EVERY SCHOOL, HOSPITAL, AND PARK IN THE COUNTRY. AND THEY REFUSE TO TELL ME THE SOURCE FROM WHICH IT WAS SYNTHESIZED. WHAT ARE THEY HIDING!?

In my job I regularly spray the poisons on the trees, and I can attest that in most cases the poisons contain over 99% water. In fact, in the most toxic poison i disperse, one even the government restricts the use of, water comprises 99.83% of the formulation!!!!

halo2
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Jul 13 2014 11:53
Chilli Sauce wrote:
I didn't think it was possible for a statement to be a parody of itself, but there you go:

Quote:
If none of you agree with me there then I seriously cant believe how closed minded you guys are.

I do apologise for that statement, it was just something said out of slight anger.

What I ment to express was that people should have an open mind to every possibility and not those expressed via todays standard of living.

Chilli guy I have nothing against you and I have not said flouride in our water is definitely dangerous. Why must you feel the need to try and embarrass people online? Such as the statement "what else do you talk about" well to tell the truth every fortnight we either box, rock climb, hike and so on and after these events we get a pint and discuss a variety of subjects.

And by unnatural flouride I mean flouride that isn't the natural flouride that has been discussed. I would think un natural flouride is a chemical produced as a waste product and as flouride has been seen in many forms and colour I suppose it could be anything. But to be honest I am unsure how to describe it so please give me a few hours to contact my friend at BTU as it is part of his job I am sure he can answer the question directly.

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RedEd
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Jul 13 2014 15:27
halo2 wrote:
And by unnatural flouride I mean flouride that isn't the natural flouride that has been discussed. I would think un natural flouride is a chemical produced as a waste product and as flouride has been seen in many forms and colour I suppose it could be anything. But to be honest I am unsure how to describe it so please give me a few hours to contact my friend at BTU as it is part of his job I am sure he can answer the question directly.

Why does it make a difference, from a public health perspective, if the fluoride has been created by human activity or not?

As I think I already mentioned 'naturally' high levels of fluoride in drinking water can cause health problems, and 'naturally' low levels don't offer protection from health problems that can be averted by a higher level of fluorides. I don't think the idea of what's 'natural' really has anything to do with what's good for human health in this case.

Bear in mind that chemical compounds don't know how they were created, whether human activity was involved or not, and they are going to behave the same either way.

Fleur
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Jul 13 2014 16:25

Firstly, if you phone Southern Water and ask them where their fluoride is coming from they probably won't know, because under further investigation (I googled it) it turns out that Southern Water does not add fluoride to their water supply. There is a naturally occurring level of fluoride in the water of one part per million - a little low on the scale but still sufficient to improve overall dental health in people who consume it. If you wanted to know where exactly their fluoride came from you would probably need to ask a geologist who knows the region and could tell you where the naturally occurring fluoride in the region was situated. My guess, all over, because it's everywhere.

Quote:
Does natural occuring flouride have the same dental benefits as un natural flouride?

If by "unnatural" fluoride, you mean the stuff which is specifically produced in chemical factories to be added to drinking water, then the answer is yes. Read the document on the medieval findings. There was a chronic shortage of industrial chemical plants in the 12th century.

The difference between "natural" and "unnatural" fluoride? I take iron supplements every day (FER.) It is made in a chemical factory, or at least I bloody hope it is and not some geezer with a bunsen burner in a shed. It is exactly the same chemical as naturally occurs in nature. Presumably the water suppliers could dump massive amounts of fluoride rich rocks in the reservoirs, so that the naturally occurring fluoride could leech out over millions of years but it wouldn't be very effective. So they take the same fluoride it is the same in a form which is water soluable and can be added in a controlled way, in which the levels of fluoride can be easily monitored to be at a safe level. A chemical is a chemical, irrespective of whether it is in a form which can be found in nature or if it is produced in a lab. Salt(as in table salt) is NaCl whether you buy it at the supermarket to add to your food or dig it out of the ground or take it from the sea. The same goes for iodine. We need fluorides, in the same way as we need chlorides and iodides. Not in too large quantities, but we need them. So, Fluoride is fluoride, whether or not it is occurring in nature or made in a factory.

The anti-fluoride camp make much of the fact that the fluoride added to water is made from a by-product of chemical fertilizer -OH MY GOD IT'S A BY-PRODUCT! THAT MEANS WASTE! FERTILIZER! ISN'T THAT SHIT? It just betrays a complete lack of understanding of some very basic chemistry. By product is just the stuff left over from the process of making something else. It's not intrinsically bad and in this case it's used to make something else. I eat a by-product regularly. It's the left over sludge from the beer making process and most people in the world think it's disgusting. It's Marmite (although it's getting bloody hard for me to get my hands on it here now, thanks to some idiot story in the British tabloids.)

Quote:
And what about the idea of adding vitamins?

Didn't you bother reading what I already said? It is not practical to add vitamins to the drinking water, it would have to be in such massive quantities that it would be impractical, would make the water taste like shit and vitamins can easily be consumed by other means (unlike fluoride in sufficient quantities) - if you have even a half-way sensible diet you will get enough anyway. Even the water marketed as Vitamin Water, beyond tasting like cack, doesn't have enough vitamins in them to make an noticeable difference to your health. Vitamins are added to some foods, go back and read my folic acid comments. Also vitamin D is added to the milk supply here because anyone north of Washington DC is vulnerable to vitamin D deficiency, the climate not being sunny enough ( and it's far sunnier here than in the UK.) If I were in the UK I would be far more concerned about lack of Vitamin D, than any concerns about fluoride, due to the lack of sun.

The fluoride in toothpaste is in higher concentrations than in water but you would have to be eating tubes of the stuff to make any real difference. So spit don't swallow. (I could make a joke out of that one…)

Quote:
Also chlorine has always been necessary to ensure clean water, has flouride always been necessary?

Fluoride has always been in water. It occurs naturally.

As for the pint you enjoy after your hikes and rock climbing, it will contain far more chemicals than anything you get out of the tap, including fluoride because it's made mostly of water.

Edit: cross-posted with RedEd who said what I wanted to say much more succinctly.

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Noah Fence
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Jul 13 2014 17:53

If Fluoride Inc. is out to get us, the only thing for it is to develop a positive mental attitude. These guys could definitely teach us a thing or two:
http://youtu.be/god7hAPv8f0
Notice the word 'god' and the number '7' in the link - significant, yes?
They cannot win if we all wake up.
Remember, freedom is just a choice in the moment, infinite joy is just a thought away.

redsdisease
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Jul 13 2014 18:18
Spassmaschine wrote:
In my job I regularly spray the poisons on the trees, and I can attest that in most cases the poisons contain over 99% water. In fact, in the most toxic poison i disperse, one even the government restricts the use of, water comprises 99.83% of the formulation!!!!

Hey me too!

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cresspot
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Jul 13 2014 23:29

Flouride is a fucking dentist's conspiracy. And apparently everyone on here loves their dentist

By the way the dentists tried imposing their fluoride dictatorship here in Portland and the dentocrats got SHUT DOWN. Soon you people will be saying that we should floss every night

Fleur
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Jul 13 2014 23:34
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And apparently everyone on here loves their dentist

I love my dentist, in a totally comradely sort of way. I lucked out, found a communist dentist. As a consequence, I don't have to lie down in a dark room and stave off a panic attack at the thought of dental costs. Each according to their abilities, etcetera. smile

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Jul 14 2014 00:29
Fleur wrote:
communist dentist

Wait a second! Really existing socialism?

Please tell me more about this. Does this mean that not all dentistry is oppressive, that there can be dentists without agendas? And does it mean your dentist own the means of production?

Fleur
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Jul 14 2014 00:53

Steady on, don't get too excited! He's a dentist, who identifies as a communist. Not our type of communist though, the Marxist-Leninist kind. I'm not holding out for an anarchist dentist. He's a decent guy. I sent someone who had a dental emergency to him last week, told him she didn't have insurance or money and he treated her anyway, without charge.

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Jul 14 2014 08:15

From each according to their incisors....

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Chilli Sauce
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Jul 14 2014 11:57

So, Halo, I don't know if you're still around, but I was thinking about this thread.

You've obviously got this thing that you feel might have some legitimacy to, you post on here as a newbie, and you get really detailed rebuttals of your idea and a slight bit of piss-taking. I can see how that might feel a bit sh*t, so I wanted to give a bit context to why people have responded as they have.

At any point in recent history that there's been a popular mass movements that anarchists feel they can support (think Occupy), at some point the conspiracy theorists inevitably show up - f*cking 9/11 truthers, David Icke types, all those whackjobs. And, then time and energy has to be diverted to deal with these schmucks instead of actually doing worthwhile work. (Fleur, as you've discovered, has an ability to do this, at least on libcom, with unmatched style, grace, and substance)

And there's a rightward trajectory to these to these conspiracy theories: it's only a hop, skip, and jump away from believing there's some secret cabal linked to the finance industry that's undermined the gold standard and fluoridated our water and the nanny state putting mercury in our vaccines to right-wing "libertarianism" to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

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Jul 14 2014 16:35
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David Icke types

I went to a David Icke talk about 15 or 16 years ago and it has to be said, he was a fucking brilliant speaker. There were maybe 10 attendees and he did a pretty convincing job on all of us. He was also very funny. After he had finished speaking he asked me and my mate if we had any change for the phone booth, instead I offered him my mobile and he recoiled in horror - something about mind control waves! We then spent about an hour with him in the bar and I found him a thoroughly pleasant and engaging bloke.
I had never heard of conspiracy theory before and I found it pretty exciting. His 'info' was a lot less outlandish back then though. I reckon it was at least a couple of years before I concluded that it was a load of old bollocks so I guess that makes me an ex 'David Icke type'.
So, admins, am I banned???

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jonthom
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Jul 14 2014 16:46

and it works like this...

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Noah Fence
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Jul 14 2014 17:37

Oh fuck - I also met Paul Hardcastle around the time Nineteen was a hit(I did some work in his house). Someone is watching me!
Infiltrating shapeshifter alert!!! I've just noticed that 'jonthom' is an anagram of 'bilderberg lizard'.