Primitivism: how to get there and some definitions

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Steven.
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Oct 13 2004 01:15
JDMF wrote:
Username, you have been avoiding this very simple question all along:

If availability of food or high mortality rate are not a factor, in the absense of contraception what is keeping the population from growing?

Username wrote:
i think something about agriculture fuels our population.

Yeah JDMF you see when people plant all those seeds in the ground and they all get trampled by people you actually get cross-fertilisation resulting in potentially thousands of people growing out of the soil, along with your standard grains/legumes or what have you.

The population of some tribal societies increased several hundred-fold in a generation like this, destroying many communities.

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Oct 13 2004 03:41

Primitivism = complete denial of reality.

Almost all of your "facts" are wrong, Username. Why don't you try getting your facts from slightly more reliable sources than those who just want to justify their ill thought out arguments?

What's the natural medicine solution for people who are short-sighted, or for diabetes? Or is every single conceivable ailment conveniently blamed on "civilisation"? Eye exercises, bollocks!

If you had a heart attack, who would you trust? A homeopath or a doctor?

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Oct 13 2004 08:19
888 wrote:

What's the natural medicine solution for people who are short-sighted, or for diabetes? Or is every single conceivable ailment conveniently blamed on "civilisation"? Eye exercises, bollocks!

If you had a heart attack, who would you trust? A homeopath or a doctor?

nah mate, don't take homeopaths into this, many treatments are actually really good holistic treatments. Heart attack -> doctor, back pain -> osteopath (if you go to a doctor with a back pain all they do is give you pain killers, WTF!), allergies, asthma -> some holistic hippy thing plus nutritional treatment, knife in your throat -> surgeon, diabetes -> both conventional medicine plus nutritional treatment.

Anyways, this was totally off topic but needed to be brought out - actually, there is no such thing than on topic on this board anyway grin

redyred
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Oct 13 2004 13:22

When I was about 16 I was referred (e.g. passed on) to a homeopath by my GP to sort out my chronic eczema. He was a rather sinister man who drew a timeline of my life with some pictures of my feet on it, as well as asking some really personal questions. Then he gave me some tablets which had absolutely no effect. I went back to him about 6 times over the next year, each time he gave me some different tablets which had no effect, after which he pretty much told me my eczema was uncurable and I would have to live with it. A few years later I went past his house and noticed the door had been bricked up, so I naturally assumed a vengeful community had done the decent thing and walled the hippy nutter up in his own home. Presumably pitchforks and burning torches were involved too.

But what's all this bullshit from primmos about having natural treatments in a primitivist society? The herbal crap is already with us under modern day capitalism. About a month back I was looking for some kind of sleeping tablets and of about fifteen different brands there wasn't a single one that didn't have the words "natural" and "herbal" somewhere on the packaging. I want something chemical that's actually going to work, not a placebo for hippies, but presumably to do that I would need a prescription. Fucking capitalism with its pandering to petit bourgeois romanticising of nature.

Jack wrote:
What next? making fucking voodoo dolls of the ruling class?

Oh, if only...

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Oct 13 2004 15:48
Jack wrote:
Oh for fucks sake, now we're going to have anarchists embracing such ridiculous anti-rationalism as homoepathy? What next? making fucking voodoo dolls of the ruling class?

Jesus fucking CHRIST.

dude, there's a lot of shit in anti-rational elements in some parts of homeapathy and some can withstand most vigorous scientific testing. For fucks sake are you just shooting from the hip or do you have a clue on what you are talking about?

What is your take on osteopathy? Is that voodoo dolls as well?

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Oct 13 2004 15:58

no, don't knock homeopathy. just cos there are some crack pots who peddle nonsense that doesn't work (similar to alot of drug companies) doesn't mean it's all bollocks. all homeopathy is is essential using the chemicals that are already present in nature. for some stuff it works for some stuff it doesn't.

for instance, my dad (who has not been a hippy since he was a teenager, and as that was in the sixties when there were groups who played decent music who were hippies that's excusable) suffered for many years, decades in fact, from periodic migraines, that meant he had to stay in bed for a week with intense pain. he had various drugs given to him which eased the pain and so on, but did nothing to prevent them, just made him stop wanting to bash his head on the wall to stop it. then a few years back he went to a different doctor (not some crackpot) who asked him if he wanted to try a homeopathic treatment. he was sceptical but thought he may as well try it. he hasn't had a migraine for about five years or more, all he has to do is take a few drops of some stuff made from bits of plant, which he could only overdose on if he swallowed a bucket load (and it comes in 30ml bottles).

so just cos it's associated with hippies doesn't necessarily mean it's bollocks. i mean, is it really any different to taking stuff made from mould? i wouldn't have thought so, but then that's what antibiotics are, more or less. it's not necessarily anti-rational, most of it was arrived at by years or generations of experimenting. the witch doctors might have said to take it because the jibber jabber god had spoken to him from a cowpat, but that was just to maintain his control over the community and disguise the fact that it had been discovered through logical use of what was available.

Quote:
Yeah JDMF you see when people plant all those seeds in the ground and they all get trampled by people you actually get cross-fertilisation resulting in potentially thousands of people growing out of the soil, along with your standard grains/legumes or what have you.

The population of some tribal societies increased several hundred-fold in a generation like this, destroying many communities.

yeah, it's like when those crazy ancient greeks planted dragons teeth and the skeletal warriors grew out of the soil and laid waste to whoever it was. and you see now with genetic manipulation it will be even worse, and millions of people will explode out of a single tomato. and then you see the evil agriculturists start using symbolic thought to brainwash people into thinking that living in a bush, being gored by wild boar and dying of gangrene, and the ritual stoning to death of young that aren't quite up to tribal fitness is somehow BAD when compared to harvesting some plants, living in a house that you had time to build good thick walls for so the old and young don't freeze to death in winter, and time to develop culture and art which, generations hence, will give birth to quentin tarantino, who was himself a horrific outcome of his parents attempt to grow potatoes.

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Oct 13 2004 22:21

another cool thing hippies have done damage to the credibility of is acupuncture and acupressure. now, i don't know if these are any good in terms of healthcare as i know nowt about them, but kung fu classics like "shaolin and wu-tang" would have been nowhere near as cool without the ching-kang fist technique to paralysise enemies with a few precise hits, or that other film i can't remember where the guy fights this other really hard guy for about five minutes with awesome techniques, then kills him by sticking a tiny pin in a very specific point on his neck. and my current favourite film of all time, kill bill, has an awesome ending thanks to the use of the five point palm exploding heart technique.

redyred
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Oct 14 2004 09:10

To be fair I've never met who believed in homeopathy who wasn't at some level a tree-spirit worshipping, orange flares wearing hippy. And hippies are gullible and totally succepeptible to placebo effect. You could probably cure pretty much anything if you gave them a bit of cardboard and said it was bark from the sacred moon tree. And obviously, yeah, a lot of genuine medicine is derived from plants or whatever, but the difference is it generally works (maybe because mainstream medical science isn't afraid to test on animals tongue).

Anyway, I look forward to seeing a horoscopes page in the next issue of freedom.

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Oct 14 2004 09:44
redyred wrote:
To be fair I've never met who believed in homeopathy who wasn't at some level a tree-spirit worshipping, orange flares wearing hippy.

well redyred, first time for everything, you are coming to the london bookfair right? You'll meet one there...

Quote:
And obviously, yeah, a lot of genuine medicine is derived from plants or whatever, but the difference is it generally works (maybe because mainstream medical science isn't afraid to test on animals tongue).

generally works yes, in it's own narrow framework. I believe in combining the best of both worlds. yeah, i'm lucky because i've never had to see a doctor in this country yet (6 years and counting & knock wood and all that as well grin ) but if i had a problem which effects needed to be treated then sure i'd go to a doctor. However, as a rule of thumb if i needed to treat the cause of the problem, i would seek something more holistic.

I have to say my opinion about these things changed in the last 2 years really from totally from the anti-goofy to a sceptical supporter. Firstly i went to an osteopath without knowing that they too are considered "alternative" and "holistic", and the fucker fixed my back in one session! Shit, had i known this i would have saved months of pain.

Secondly, my wife suffers from work related RSI, she went to an acupuncturist and that helped loads.

Also she has controlled her very bad and potentially lethal asthma with tweaking her diet and yoga and was able to weane herself out of the inhaler and medication - sounds hippy, and i'm sure many are happier to give a shot at alternatives than to be addicted to the heavy steroids in their inhalers for the rest of their lives (which incidentally make you more vulnerable because you wont be able to control an attack without one soon enough after you are hooked).

Someone i know was diagnosed with very bad case of cancer, they told her she only has months to live and there was nothing to be done medically. She didn't want to go lying down and fought back with nutritional therapy plus loads of alternative cancer treatment of which many sound dubious, but hey there you go. This was 16 years ago and she is still going, and has won 8 british titles in powerlifting as well. Fantastic example, and she has now helped others to repeat the same in their severe cancer cases.

Of course this is all anecdotal, but the central point remains. There are so called "alternative" ways of treating our health and it is about time we reclaim the sound, proven and solid ones from the hippies that are giving it a bad name. Things like acupuncture, which i still actually don't believe fully, are the mainstream in countries like china, where acupuncturists only get paid if the patient gets well - that would be a great system for western medicine to adopt as well smile

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Oct 14 2004 11:57
Quote:
(maybe because mainstream medical science isn't afraid to test on animals ).

yeah, and has given us such medical miracles as thalodimide, brilliant that. if you strip away the tree worshipping bollocks that some homeopaths etc. have, then you have medicines what have been tested on humans for hundreds of years, and therefore if they are used properly (i.e. by real doctors, like my dad's) they are effective. i'm sure if you gave some hippy a big supply of chemicals from some medical corporation and told them it was all made from hemp they could render it all useless. and my dad has never worn orange flares in his life, and didn't think it would work, but it did.

Quote:
Kiss of the Dragon.

ah yeah, i think i've only ever seen the end of that film. i wish the b-movie channel here would show some kung fu movies, mostly it just seems to show really bad horror movies, and then occasionally it shows hardboiled, which is awesome, but not quite martial arts joy... still, at least one of the three cinema channels shows yojimbo about once a fortnight. akira kirosawa doesn't fuck about with any acupuncture, he just kills everyone with a massive sword.

gurrier
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Oct 14 2004 12:42

Now there might be an argument for some alternative treatments, but homeopathy is pure and simple bollox. It started as a scam and as science has advanced it has become much clearer that it must be a scam. I'll spare you the details of what it involves, suffice to say homeopathic medicine is water, nothing more nothing less. If you want to pay a lot of money for vials of water, that's your problem.

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Oct 14 2004 12:56

gurrier, yeah, i guess there might be some confusion over the terminology, i took the comments as being against all kind of so called holistic/alternative treatment not just homeapathy on it's own.

redyred
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Oct 14 2004 13:45

Also, if you look back at my story about my experiences with the homeopath, the guy was asking some really weird questions that wasn't in any way connected to my condition (a few of which I refused to answer) and then just jotted down random bits of it on a timeline. Even at the time I was just becoming politically aware and quite open minded, but I still found it pretty suss. Now I see a dermatologist at the country hospital, who took one look at my skin, prescribed some antibiotics, some steroids, sent me for some blood tests and is now putting me on a long term treatment, and so far its all worked wonders. I realise my isolated case might give me a bit of a bias, but I really don't believe so-called natural remedies have gone through nearly as rigorous a scientific testing process.

I understand that sometimes something like osteopathy (which surely just means bone-therapy, so surely just some kind of physio thing?) could work like in the case with your back JDMF. And of course sometimes I've got complete shit that did me no good off the NHS as well. But every time I'd put my trust with the real doctors. There might still be a bit of a hit-and-miss factor involved, but I think they have a lot more "hit" than holistic treatments.

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Oct 14 2004 17:32

well at the risk of repeating myself, a homeopathic treatment HAS worked with my dad. which doesn't actually contradict you redyred except as far as you saying all homeopathy is bollocks, because he was prescribed the treatment by a fully qualified doctor, the stuff he gets is not some vial of water from a hippy shop with nice flowers printed on organic paper it comes in the same way any other medicine delivered in droplets comes. and i really don't think it was a placebo, because i would have thought the large variety of drugs he'd been given before would be more likely to work as a placebo if they didn't actually work than that homeopathic stuff, because my dad doesn't believe in any hippie nonsense, or indeed any religious nonsense as i was brought up an atheist.

so i presume that some sensible scientists had a look at some of the homeopathic stuff, ignored the gibbering hippy, found that some of it worked, for curing migraines anyway, and so the doctor had no problem in prescribing it. whereas in your case some lunatic who knew nothing about anything but took lots of halucinogenic drugs when he was younger and had a foot fetish tried to con you into taking water with dandelion juice. the only conclusions i can see is that hippies a crap and destroy any credibility of anything they touch, a bit like king midas only smellier and with longer guitar solos, but i knew that anyway.

Mike Harman
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Oct 16 2004 09:32

Well, I had pretty severe headaches between the age of 14-16 - about six weeks off school with them over two years, one would last around 2-3 days. Went to an ear, nose and throat specialist, neurologist, acupuncturist, couple of other places, then eventually a homeopath, who told me after a couple of minutes of questions that he thought I was addicted to caffeine, that I should stop drinking it immediately, and gave me some stuff that would ease off the withdrawl symptoms.

I stopped drinking caffeine (I now drink tea, but never coke or coffee), and never get headaches any more. I don't think the stuff he gave me made any difference one way or the other, but after two days, no more headaches. I'd been getting withdrawl from caffeine, but because I didn't know that was the problem, didn't know I could fix it with a quick cup of tea, and never left off caffeine long enough to clear it properly.

Not saying I'd go to a homeopath for anything else at all, but on that occasion the advice (if not the medicine) was very good, and mainstream alternatives (and non-mainstream - acupuncture), hadn't done anything, including co-codamol pain killers which were pretty strong.

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Oct 18 2004 00:31

Interesting. But here it was not drinking caffeine, rather than taking some homeopathic cure that solved the problem.

I heard (from a believer in it) that homeopathy consists of taking a natural remedy and diluting it to billionths (or less) of its original strength.

I've got nothing against using natural remedies, if they work, but taking ine and diluting it so much that there's nothing left but water is pure nonsense. There's no possible way that could work. You're just drinking water. One french scientist claimed to have discovered how homeopathy worked - by making the water remember what was in it before - but it turned out he was a total lunatic.