Nihilism??

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WeTheYouth
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Oct 14 2004 20:43
Nihilism??

I have a vague idea of nihilism, is it being an ultra sceptic? anyone help me out?

gawkrodger
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Oct 14 2004 21:07

they were a group of russian revolutionaries in the 1860s (i think it was 1870s?) largely from upper class families. unsurprisingly anti-tsarists, big against moral systems. I seem to recollect they were very puritan? i'm sure someone can come up with something much better than my brief blurb!

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cantdocartwheels
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Oct 14 2004 22:39
gawkrodger wrote:
they were a group of russian revolutionaries in the 1860s (i think it was 1870s?) largely from upper class families. unsurprisingly anti-tsarists, big against moral systems. I seem to recollect they were very puritan? i'm sure someone can come up with something much better than my brief blurb!

A bit nutty, focused on violent acts against the state and wrote some really mad tracts about how a ''revolutionary'' should ''dedicate'' themselves. Similar to the later anarcho-futurists in some respects, and both were equally barmy.

But nihilism isn't that at all. Those guys just called themselves nihilists.

Nihilism is the belief that you should not neccessarily be subject to any higher power, be it a religious, physical or moral authority or of course the authority of the majority.

So its NOT anarchism as far as I can see, and yeah ultra sceptic describes it a bit.

john

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Oct 15 2004 00:20

learning about nihilism helped me give up socialism.

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Oct 15 2004 00:57

like, no.

Username
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Oct 15 2004 01:47
WeTheYouth wrote:
I have a vague idea of nihilism, is it being an ultra sceptic? anyone help me out?
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Oct 15 2004 02:03
revol68 wrote:
no they are not allowed to think in such abstractions, they're campsite chats are fucking great.

"cold ugh ugh more fire"

there was once when someone suggested they just go into the village down the road and have a pint by its lovely roaring fire but the group consensus put an end to that.

"ugh fuck off u reformist stalinist industrialist cunt.. shit i mean no ugh ugh!"

"ugh ugh ughughrarr"

"hmm point of order wee Billy here is only at level 3 rewilding and is having problems following the conversation, could u please talk in away which doesn't recreate the hierarchies of the docile civilised world, cheers Tarquin ur next to speak"

there you have it, WeTheYouth, answers to your questions.

WeTheYouth
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Oct 15 2004 08:14
Username wrote:
revol68 wrote:
no they are not allowed to think in such abstractions, they're campsite chats are fucking great.

"cold ugh ugh more fire"

there was once when someone suggested they just go into the village down the road and have a pint by its lovely roaring fire but the group consensus put an end to that.

"ugh fuck off u reformist stalinist industrialist cunt.. shit i mean no ugh ugh!"

"ugh ugh ughughrarr"

"hmm point of order wee Billy here is only at level 3 rewilding and is having problems following the conversation, could u please talk in away which doesn't recreate the hierarchies of the docile civilised world, cheers Tarquin ur next to speak"

there you have it, WeTheYouth, answers to your questions.

What is it with you trolls? Do you have to hijack all my threads?

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the button
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Oct 15 2004 08:15

You can get quite a good feeling for what nihilism was from Turgenev's novel, 'Fathers & Sons.' It seems to be about a rejection of tradition & certain kinds of familial/religious authority on the one hand, and an uncritical embrace of scientific reasoning on the other.

WeTheYouth
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Oct 15 2004 08:31
Jack wrote:
WeTheYouth wrote:

What is it with you trolls? Do you have to hijack all my threads?

...Except it was Username who did that?

I was talking about revol. He added nothing of relevance to the thread, just the usual garbage he shites out.

WeTheYouth
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Oct 15 2004 08:41

He was not trolling like revol though, he didnt add much of value or answer my question but he wasnt doing a super troll routine like revol.

WeTheYouth
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Oct 15 2004 08:57
Jack wrote:
Well, the way *I* read it was that revol was trying to save your thread from that selfish asshole Username. I think you're letting your past with Revol get ahead of you?

Maybe someone needs to give a hug and apology...?

Lovely, come and give me a hug then. Mr. T

It is to do with how revol acts on these boards, he always comes on threads and just acts like a moron, i dont see how he was saving me from usernames statement about how nihilism saved him from socialism.

Steve
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Oct 15 2004 10:04

I always liked the nihilists in "The Big Lebowski"

Nihilist : We believe in nothing, Lebowski. Nothing. And tomorrow we come back and we cut off your chonson.

The Dude : Excuse me?

Nihilist : I said

[shouting]

Nihilist : "We'll cut off your johnson"!

Nihilist : Just you think about that, Lebowski.

Nihilist : Yeah, your wiggly penis, Lebowski.

Nihilist : Yeah and maybe we stomp on it and squoosh it, Lebowski.

Dumfries
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Oct 15 2004 10:10

Anarchism and Nihilism have a lot in common. Bakunin in his younger years embraced the philosophy somewhat. In an article written in 1842 called 'Reaction in Germany' he says "Let us put our trust in the eternal spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unsearchable and eternally creative source of all life. The desire for destruction is also a creative desire."...

Quote:
Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy. While few philosophers would claim to be nihilists, nihilism is most often associated with Friedrich Nietzsche who argued that its corrosive effects would eventually destroy all moral, religious, and metaphysical convictions and precipitate the greatest crisis in human history. In the 20th century, nihilistic themes--epistemological failure, value destruction, and cosmic purposelessness--have preoccupied artists, social critics, and philosophers. Mid-century, for example, the existentialists helped popularize tenets of nihilism in their attempts to blunt its destructive potential. By the end of the century, existential despair as a response to nihilism gave way to an attitude of indifference, often associated with antifoundationalism.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/n/nihilism.htm

Augusto_Sandino
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Oct 15 2004 12:33

Its sort of like how anarchism is percieved by those who dont know the real theory, its all about violence, and revolution, and perpetuation of that i think...

But what are anarcho-futurists? The Futurists were, to the best of my knowledge, an art movement that idolised violence, brutality and military power Fascisti style...

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the button
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Oct 15 2004 12:39

Some of the futurists got sucked in by Mussolini, as indeed did Gramsci, for the space of one newspaper editorial he wrote! (Probably had time to review that opinion while he was in the nick wink ). For me, what the futurists celebrated was speed, modernity, and power. Now of course, power doesn't equal violence, but it's easy to see how the two can be equated. In fact, a lot of anarchists make the same mistake. (Stands by to be flamed to fuck).

Their British counterparts, the vorticists, produced some good art & some fucking great novels (Wyndham Lewis), as well as giving a name for one of the great record labels of the 80s, Blast First!, who took their name from the first vorticist manifesto (yep, they had a manifesto), which was called 'Blast First! from politeness.'

Augusto_Sandino
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Oct 15 2004 13:08

Yeah, it does make for interesting art i suppose. But it would be pretty easy to make a jump to fascist politics from those criteria. Modernity and Power, could almost have come out of Hitlers mouth!

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Oct 15 2004 13:12

That whole thing of the relationship between fascism & modernity is a fascinating question. On the one hand, there's the Volkswagen thing of modernity/mass production/uniformity. On the other, there's all that harking back to a nordic master race/runic/medieval shit.

Maybe time for a new thread? wink

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Oct 15 2004 13:15

Futurism in russia was somewhat different proabably because russia was more of a peasant society, and basially consisted of an annoying bunch of students into poetry, in political terms this made them a sort of violent crimethinc, which unsurprisingly meant they were a pointless bunch of people with really shit politics and no coherent programme at all.

I'm not really sure its fair to say gramsci was ''sucked in'' by mussolini, but pssh thats a long boring debate.

john

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Oct 15 2004 13:17
cantdocartwheels wrote:

I'm not really sure its fair to say gramsci was ''sucked in'' by mussolini, but pssh thats a long boring debate.

john

Fucking right it is. I regretted typing that almost as soon as I'd pressed 'submit.' wink OK, I take it back. Gramsci wasn't sucked in by Mussolini, he just wrote a broadly favourable editorial about him. Once.

Augusto_Sandino
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Oct 15 2004 13:21
cantdocartwheels wrote:
I'm not really sure its fair to say gramsci was ''sucked in'' by mussolini, but pssh thats a long boring debate.

john

Well Mussolini arose out of the socialist left, i think he had a fair few confused at first. It was Matteo or someone that he murdered wasnt it, and risked a mutiny in his own ranks from the members who were still socialistic in outlook.

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Oct 15 2004 13:41

edit: arse.

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Oct 15 2004 14:59
Augusto_Sandino wrote:
its all about violence, and revolution, and perpetuation of that i think...

I'm one nihilist who doesn't believe in violence/revolution. Y'all are very biased 'cause y'all think a person associating nihilism with a lack of socialism is trolling. maybe y'all should study nihilism's history with anarchism and discover how nihilism's opposition to socialism was/is a reality. early russian anarchists/nihilists weren't socialists. bakunin and kropotkin, before exile, are two popular examples, and the only two i know. thanks, sorry if i still come off trollish.

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Oct 15 2004 16:12
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early russian anarchists/nihilists weren't socialists. bakunin and kropotkin, before exile, are two popular examples,

right, that would be why bakunin wrote "liberty without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality" then, and why kropotkin is generally regarded as the founder of anarchist communism. neither were nihilists, although bakunin may well have been influenced by them when he was younger just as he was influenced by panslavism and the mad conspiracies of italy.

wasn't nietsche supposed to be one of the big influences on nihilism, with that beyond good and evil thing? which incidently is the name of a rather good album by an obscure swedish band called the pornorphans...

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Oct 15 2004 16:19
GenerationTerrorist wrote:
why kropotkin is generally regarded as the founder of anarchist communism.

i said, "before exile". good points about bakunin. i heard he was a nihilist whether or not he was against socialism.

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Oct 15 2004 22:28
Augusto_Sandino wrote:
cantdocartwheels wrote:
I'm not really sure its fair to say gramsci was ''sucked in'' by mussolini, but pssh thats a long boring debate.

john

Well Mussolini arose out of the socialist left, i think he had a fair few confused at first. It was Matteo or someone that he murdered wasnt it, and risked a mutiny in his own ranks from the members who were still socialistic in outlook.

Yeah he was a member of some socialist party but left in 1914-15.

Giacomo Matteotti, head of the main social democrat opposition party was the guy he murdered in 1924.

Just out of curiousity, when and in what context did gramsci write a favourable article about mussolini?

(mind you perhaps its really obvious and i'm not that well read so i missed it)

john

nuclearcivvy
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Oct 16 2004 01:10

Nihilism is best summed up as disagreeing with anything constructive.

(No it isnt.)

Nihilists say things like "how do you know that?" and "That's a load of bollocks."

(proove it.)

The obvious advantage of being a nihilist is that you never have to come up with anything yourself. Just rubbish everyone elses ideas, and refuse to believe a word anyone says.

(Are you buying this drivvel?)

Nihilists never read the stuff they dismiss out of hand. Why should they? It's almost impossible to disproove a negative point of view.

(Why should I? I know it's crap.)

Nihilism is the philosophical equivalent of the guy in school with behavioural problems. Socialism sets out a manifesto against staffroom tyrany. Facism makes a rousing speech, appealing to your basic fears of the third form. Thatcherism encourages you to buy back your own teeth, after being forced to pay for them to be kicked out.

Nihilism sits at the back of the class and shouts "LOAD OF BOLLOCKS." at everyone.

(You know nothing. Why should I believe you?)

If nihilism lost his PE kit, He wouldn't know. He'd question the existance of PE, kit, or the concept of loss.

"But they've got your name sewn in them nihilism."

"That could mean anything. Maybe it's the label. Who gave you the right to dictate the ownership of PE kit? How do you know that's my name anyway? Did you name me? No, so shut up you fool."

That's nihilism. A cop out philosophy, only used by people who know what they are against, but haven't a clue what they are in favour of.

For more information on nihilism, see:

http://www.iep.utm.edu/n/nihilism.htm

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Oct 16 2004 01:14

That's because nihilists aren't in favor of anything 'cause they believe any replacement will be just as bad.

nuclearcivvy
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Oct 16 2004 01:34

Which gets us nowhere.

If nihilists truly believed that, they'd all commit suicide.

(No we wouldn't.)

If they're right, and nothing will ever change, why do they waste their breath? There's no point. Right?

(You would say that though.)

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Oct 16 2004 01:55
nuclearcivvy wrote:
Which gets us nowhere.

yeah right

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Oct 16 2004 11:37
revol68 wrote:
yes we know there's no point so shut the fuck up and let us make our own.

WHO SAID THERE WAS NO POINT? confused