Nationalism: Scottish + other "oppressed" ones

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Bodach gun bhrigh's picture
Bodach gun bhrigh
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Dec 18 2005 16:19
John. wrote:

You are just talking about supporting your language and culture as if it's a good thing in itself. None of you have provided a shred of evidence as to why your culture is good in itself.

But it's not evil in itself so why do we have to prove it's good? It's like proclaiming your solidarity with the oppressed masses in Vietnam, you couldn't do that as effectively in English as you could in Vietnamese, cause they don't understand English.

Gaelic is no better and no worse than any other culture, and it has a lot of poetry that is worth knowing in the original just for the sake of it. Sorley Maclean, the best 20th c Gaelic poet, was a Marxist, but he wrote an excellent poem about the Spanish civil war.

If no culture is good in itself, we may as well drop the bombs now. Real proletarians and peasants speak languages other than English, so why say their culture is crap just because they're different? All cultures have value, so learning about any one enriches yourself, I just chose the nearest one to me. And by doing so, you're saying that not all Gaels have been drunken wife-beaters or Tyrannical chiefs, you're saying that there is some good in every culture, even ones that have been marginalised by the forces of history. You can find the best of that culture and add it to your personality, your personal history. Down with the commisars! Saorsa cainte! (freedom of speech)

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Volin
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Dec 18 2005 16:33
revol68 wrote:
capitalism and the state do not have some innate desire to wipe out cultures and languages, infact the modern state is desperately trying to create some form of social cohesion by supporting multiculturism

No, states repackage 'cultures' and identities within the context of their own existence. 'Multiculturalism' is a case in point. What we're defending is a people's history and consciousness (to give it a name) that doesn't and couldn't fit within the confines of a subservient, Anglicised, Globalised environment. We're not talking about languages or folk heritage etc. in isolation to how people relate to their own part of the world and objective circumstances. Though I'll be predicatably denounced for having such heretical opinions; this is a class position. Struggle with a cultural perspective isn't new, we ourselves have a long and often forgotten history of social sturggle rooted within the common people. Against this, you'd only be furthering the exact same alienated homogenisation that capitalism itself necessitates, like a typical prole you'd be part of capital.

Your views, as always, are like someone looking on from without...following the example you yourself used - of someone watching the TV.

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Dec 18 2005 16:40
revol68 wrote:

capitalism and the state do not have some innate desire to wipe out cultures and languages, infact the modern state is desperately trying to create some form of social cohesion by supporting multiculturism, capital having colonialised everywhere is forced in on itself,

That's an assumption based upon a lack of knowledge of linguistics. Half the world's languages will be extinct by the end of the century, the reason? These languages are being eroded by national languages in their respective states. National languages are the languages of education, officialdom and commerce, so people are educated out of their own language or choose to pick up another one for the sake of career enhancement. Most of the world's population are in any case bilingual, through the need to communicate with neighbouring populations. The reason most of Europe speaks Romance languages is because the native populations required Latin to get a post in the Roman army, or get ahead in the bureaucracy. The languages of those native populations are all now dead, except Basque and Welsh. Multiculturalism does not affect language retention, most asian children living in the UK will be monolingual English speakers within a few generations, because of the pressure of English to get a job, education, the law and so forth.

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multiplying identities and cultures, they become like everyother commodity, a pic n mix.

So your bigoted attitude towards other British cultures is because you don't want to give in to the debauchery of Capital?

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Your love of gaelic culture is no more profound or real than my interest in the goings on in Albert Square.

Your pomposity and intellectual posturing are no more profound or real than that of Sharon Osborne.

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It has no more right to exist than Dirty Den.

I'll post a poem by Alasdair mac Mhaighstir Alasdair that might change your mind. I can't do this just now, but will do so when I get home.

Quote:
You seem obsessed that oppostion to english is somehow against the interests of capital, this is absurd, look at how Spanish colonised south america, how spanish language is growing at a phenomenal rate in the US, how Chinese will soon become the second business language.

I wouldn't support any imperial or business language.

Quote:
And that absurd comment about "opposing the work of fascism within us", what the fuck does that even mean? Most fascists aren't exactly tripping over themselves to embrace globalisation, infact they're more likely than most to attempt piss poor cultural revival movements.

I admit I'm out on a limb there, but seeing that it's English fascism, and their efforts in the Celtic fringes have been almost pre-fascist, that has destroyed those cultures, isn't it progressive to oppose that. And isn't fascism based upon internal colonisation first and the adoption of an identification with the master race, in this case, the English?

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jef costello
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Dec 18 2005 19:09
Bodach gun bhrigh wrote:

I wouldn't support any imperial or business language.

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And that absurd comment about "opposing the work of fascism within us", what the fuck does that even mean? Most fascists aren't exactly tripping over themselves to embrace globalisation, infact they're more likely than most to attempt piss poor cultural revival movements.

I admit I'm out on a limb there, but seeing that it's English fascism, and their efforts in the Celtic fringes have been almost pre-fascist, that has destroyed those cultures, isn't it progressive to oppose that. And isn't fascism based upon internal colonisation first and the adoption of an identification with the master race, in this case, the English?

It is not a little hypocritical to condemn "imperial or business language" they have been colonised so that they can be imposed.

"English fascism" English has been homogenised to the detriment of culture and the language itself so that it can be imposed. There has to be internal repression before it can be exported.

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Bodach gun bhrigh
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Dec 18 2005 20:17

Sorry, I don't follow your argument

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Bodach gun bhrigh
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Dec 18 2005 20:56

alasdair mac mhaighstir alasdair

Acarsaid nan Con 's nan Gillean

Siud i ' chulaidh, 's cha b'i 'n ulaidh

Gu bhith cullainn garbh orra -

Cullainn a' bhuilg bhuidhe bhoicinn

Leagh am bod a' mhealg aiste!

Mile marbhphaisg air an trustair

Guitear nam ball feardha,

An t-ospadal an tric na bhasaich

Magan de bhrill meardha

Thusa a' tarraing ad' bheul prionnsa,

A phumpa nam bod mealamhin?

Acarsaid nan con 's nan gillean

S tric a sgiol iad t' earball

S tric a chigil iad do bhrillean

'Nad dhubh innis tharragharbh

Spreillean do chamais air rusgadh

Le sior luisreadh Ghallabhod

Chladh thu t' fhuil is t' fheoil is t' igh riu

Le d' dhiombas, a dhearg bhanabheist

An coltolis memento mori

Ceann gun fheoil gun eanraich

Ciad mile marbhphaisg don trustair

Gulfa nam breall ceannachruinn

S tric a bhasaich ann ad' nog-sa

Gnosa de bhod le steallairean!

English translation

The Anchorage of Dogs and Servants

Now there's the contraption, hardly the treasure

For having strenuous sex with them

The body with the yellow goatskin belly

The penis has melted the eggs from it!

A thousand curses on the slut

The gutter for all men's dicks

The hospital where often expired

Great giants of merry pricks

You to be breathing the word prince

You pump for honey-smooth penises

The anchorage of dogs and servants

They often entered your premises

They often tickled your clitoris

In the thick of your belly-wide pasture

The blubber lips of your harbour stripped

By Lowland pricks fervent shafting

You spawned your blood, flesh and fat to them

With your lust, you mad beast of womanhood

The coltolis memento mori must be

A head with no meat and no soup in it

A hundred thousand curses on the slut

The gulf for the roundheaded pricks

There often died in your nock

A pig's snout of a cock with its squirts!

Why did this remind me of Revol? grin

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jef costello
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Dec 18 2005 21:02

The model of English that was imposed onto Scotland and other oppressed nations was also imposed within England. A metropolitan English worked to destroy variation of culture and language within England.

England and by extension English has suffered from being used as a tool of persecution.

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Bodach gun bhrigh
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Dec 18 2005 21:04

true, good point

Nick Durie
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Dec 19 2005 09:26
Quote:
I'm sure if I wanted as well as attempting to get some sort of social change I could do a bunch of stuff trying to protect English culture, like trying to kick out foreigners, trash curry houses or corner shops, campaign against American TV shows and Bollywood films, try to get legislation to prevent people making shop signs in turkish or Polish or something. But I wouldn't do that, cos I'm not a prick. Why would I do that? Who would benefit?

John that's a lot of shite, and a really offensive straw man. You're not revol. There's no need for it.

Nick Durie
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Dec 19 2005 10:02
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If you want your Scottish state for your (homogenous?) Scottish culture?

Read what people have wrote for fuck sake! Absolutely nobody has claimed that Scottish culture is a homogeneous entity. You have asserted that this is a claim people have made. If you're going to talk through dogma then at least make a shot at trying to back it up (ie quote something that suggests that some poster on this thread has claimed that there is a homogeneous Scottish culture).

Also the 'you' that you are refering to does not include people like Bodach or Volin, as so far only me and STI have made any pro-independence comments but I see you've just decided to lump us all together coz we're all reactionaries who think that cultures shouldn't just be extirpated to meet the needs of capital and empire (which of course is akin to wanting to trash carry-outs ran by Scottish Asians, naturally).

Nick Durie
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Dec 19 2005 10:14
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it's quite simpe really there is no scots culture!

well not outside historical reenactment socities.

In a sense there isn't, no, you're quite right.

There is a body of literature and such like that mostly derives from the ruling class and the subsequent popular culture of the lowlands which is often mistakenly refered to as 'Scottish', and certainly most well people educated people in Scotland will share some references and have probably read the same books; just as you tend to get in any state/nation on the planet, but it would be a mistake to refer to it as 'Scottish'? There's nothing in common between John Barbour's The Brus (written in the latter half of the 14 century) and, say, the writing of James Kelman. People may have read both but it's more a question of historical understanding than an actual culture (which is always very mutable and depends on the conditions of the day).

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Dec 19 2005 18:44
revol68 wrote:

it's quite simpe really there is no scots culture!

Apart from me grin

It's quite simple really there is no revol intellect!

And anyway, I don't think you're qualified to make such assertions.

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Bodach gun bhrigh
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Dec 19 2005 19:26

It's true, this man has no penis

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Dec 19 2005 23:20

He blows goats (I have proof)

AnarchoAl
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Dec 20 2005 17:56

Revol's right. People in Scotland have no culture, and in fact no civilization. I think the focus of communists should be to kill these barbarians and replace them with worthwhile people who speak a real language.

STI
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Dec 21 2005 21:57
Bodach gun bhrigh wrote:
It's true, this man has no penis

Wicked-awesome reference. It didn't go unnoticed wink

"If you tremble with indignation at every injustice or if you like Ghostbusters, then you are a comrade of mine". I think it was Che who said that.

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jef costello
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Dec 22 2005 01:14

Bustin' makes me feel good

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jef costello
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Dec 22 2005 01:51

Depends on wherther you view culture as something that is lived or something that can be studied. As a lived culture, scots is inn the shitter AFAIK and I think as Bodaich (sorry memory sucks) said culture is often the production of the upper ( I would contest middle) classes and certainly removed from the proletariat.

All the same we might as well try to maintain as much diversity of language as possible. It will give us something to do after the revolution, when we work 2 hours a day and need to fill the hours.

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Dec 22 2005 14:54
Jef Costello wrote:
Depends on wherther you view culture as something that is lived or something that can be studied. As a lived culture, scots is inn the shitter AFAIK and I think as Bodaich (sorry memory sucks) said culture is often the production of the upper ( I would contest middle) classes and certainly removed from the proletariat.

confused

Just no.

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jef costello
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Dec 22 2005 21:09
Volin wrote:

confused

Just no.

What do you mean by that?

AnarchoAl
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Dec 23 2005 09:44

There's a strong working-class culture in Scotland. It maybe doesn't get on the telly, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

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Dec 23 2005 12:45

But it does, still game being an example

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jef costello
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Dec 23 2005 22:58
AnarchoAl wrote:
There's a strong working-class culture in Scotland. It maybe doesn't get on the telly, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

My bad, I thought the culture had gone the way of the language and was largely lost. Glad to hear its still alive.

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Volin
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Dec 24 2005 13:39

...as long as there's a working-class, there'll be a 'working-class culture'.

Caiman del Barrio
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Dec 24 2005 15:04

...so then presumably, as long as there's Scots people, there'll be a Scots culture?? Which then begs, what's the problem??

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Dec 24 2005 16:03

Well, you'd be assuming that we're defending culture per se when we're not. Personally, I'm speaking for a specific cultural and historical process that's developed with the people themselves (the common people). It's the difference between a relatively independent, autonomous and historically challenging identity and perhaps you could say, a culture of work. It's a form of alienation. Wherever there's a clear grouping of people who rent themselves as labour to live, there exists a working class -even if they're not conscious of that fact, and their own shared identity opposed to the existing system. Culture means a lot of things, but it shouldn't be fetishised.

teeehee Santy's comin', I'm soo excited....