Misguided post on feminism

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OliverTwister's picture
OliverTwister
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Apr 24 2006 13:14
Gwen wrote:
zobag wrote:
But that's a rubbish idea anyway, or at least i think so and I AM a feminist. I think on the whole women's interests do coincide with men's. I'm not denying patriarchy or anything, or arguing that it's a side issue, but I personally think that class oppression is the most fundamental issue we all face. Things like gender, race, sexuality, ability etc etc are played out on to this and are significant and you con't just simplify them or write them off, but a lot of feminist perspectives don't recognise that.

It's also important to remember that historically wimmin's opression is much, much older than capitalism. Patriarchy is not jsut an apect of capitalism. Rather, capitalism evolved out of patriarchal systems and so is inevitably influenced and supported by sexism.

Yes, but it's not older than class society. In fact, women have been oppressed at different places, in different times, and in different ways (and that's still true). However, the general form of women's oppression is always derived from the class contradictions in the society. An uprooting in the dominant class has also tended to uproot women from the current form of oppression - witness the rise of the modern urban nuclear family.

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May 12 2006 00:12

http://fruitiondesign.com/dealwithit/article2.php3

Norm
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May 12 2006 00:30

I'd just like to say that Gwen's analysis of this was superb to read,

and that I think the OP is confusing actual, radical, feminism with the recuperated, "safe", version that is being used to divert revolutionary power into liberal reforms and fringe asylums.

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May 12 2006 00:35

http://www.spunk.org/library/anarcfem/sp000060.html

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May 12 2006 11:23
Norm wrote:
I'd just like to say that Gwen's analysis of this was superb to read,

and that I think the OP is confusing actual, radical, feminism with the recuperated, "safe", version that is being used to divert revolutionary power into liberal reforms and fringe asylums.

Cheers smile

What is the OP?

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Steven.
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May 12 2006 13:27

original post/er perhaps??

Norm
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May 12 2006 22:09

Yeah I meant the original poster sorry

OliverTwister's picture
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May 13 2006 15:25

Gwen/Norm, why do you think so many poor women, and especially women of color, call themselves "womanists"?

Thora
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May 13 2006 15:48
OliverTwister wrote:
Gwen/Norm, why do you think so many poor women, and especially women of color, call themselves "womanists"?

I've never heard anyone call themselves a 'womanist' confused

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May 13 2006 15:56

Maybe its an American thing?

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Steven.
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May 13 2006 16:04
rkn wrote:
Maybe its an American thing?

Those americans!

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May 13 2006 16:13
Quote:
"Womanist and womanism are populist and poetic synonyms for black feminist and black feminism. They were coined in 1983 by Alice Walker -- African American novelist, poet, essayist, and activist -- in her collection of essays, In Search of Our Mothers' Gardens: Womanist Prose.

http://www.ou.edu/womensoc/feminismwomanism.htm

Quote:
Defined by feminist author Alice Walker, Womanism is a commonly used term that was coined to mean specifically African American Feminism, but it has developed into a more encompassing version of feminism that crosses lines of race and class.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womanism

Quote:
Womanist theology is a movement in the Christianity to reconsider the traditions, practices, scriptures, and theologies with a special lens to empower and liberate African women in America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womanist

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May 13 2006 16:31
OliverTwister wrote:
Gwen/Norm, why do you think so many poor women, and especially women of color, call themselves "womanists"?

Because it suits them better than the word feminism?

I don't have a problem with it.

But just because poor wimmin of colour do something doesn't mean I have to.

Thora
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May 13 2006 16:47

Is it just me, or does '...of colour' make anyone else cringe slightly?

Thora
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May 13 2006 17:00
revol68 wrote:
no it makes me want to vomit.

Just reeks of "oh aren't those funny people so bright and colourful, always dancing and singing, like innocent children. Of course we could never behave like them, nothing would get done etc etc".

It just sounds like something my great nan would have said - "Oh, you know they have a coloured nurse at the doctor's now!"

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May 13 2006 17:12
Thora wrote:
Is it just me, or does '...of colour' make anyone else cringe slightly?

Yeah I know what you mean but do you have a better or less loaded word? I use it because it seems to be what they themselves would like to be identified as.

I don't like lumping all non-white people together I think that's lame. but I haven't found any better language?

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May 13 2006 17:24

well you just used "non-white", so why not use that?

Thora
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May 13 2006 17:45
zobag wrote:
well you just used "non-white", so why not use that?

Innit - I think if I wanted to refer to all non-white people I'd probably just use the term 'non-white'. I can't recall ever hearing a non-white friend refer to themselves as 'of colour' tbh. Then again, an anglo-sri lankan girl I know refers to herself as 'half-caste', which isn't entirely PC, so language is a funny thing really neutral

Norm
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May 13 2006 20:13
OliverTwister wrote:
Gwen/Norm, why do you think so many poor women, and especially women of color, call themselves "womanists"?

Possibly to avoid the association with the socially imposed concept of "feminininity".

Not sure, it'd probably be best to ask them...

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May 13 2006 21:42
Norm wrote:
I'd just like to say that Gwen's analysis of this was superb to read,

and that I think the OP is confusing actual, radical, feminism with the recuperated, "safe", version that is being used to divert revolutionary power into liberal reforms and fringe asylums.

Let me try this again - why do large sections of what you'd like to call "actual, radical, feminism" not call themselves that?

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Steven.
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May 13 2006 23:30

I think "of colour" is more an american thing...

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oisleep
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May 13 2006 23:51

what colour's milk?

milk
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May 14 2006 07:38

Cool, a feminism thread.

I'm pink by the way.

phoebe
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Aug 27 2006 15:00
Gwen wrote:
OliverTwister wrote:
Gwen/Norm, why do you think so many poor women, and especially women of color, call themselves "womanists"?

Because it suits them better than the word feminism?

IIRC, it's because Feminism (as a movement) had become about the movement for liberating white middle class women and talking about things white middle class women cared about, and was considered edging towards irrelevant to poor/African-American women. So they used a new word to differentiate themselves from it.

phoebe
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Aug 27 2006 15:03

Black and Minority Ethnic (BME) is more popular in the UK than POC. Some groups just use "Black" in a more general "as in not white" sense (and use African-* to refer specifically to people with African heritage).

They're all more or less problematic, but whatever.

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Aug 27 2006 17:07

I'd just like to say I really like Zobag's posts on this subject. At least where I'm from the fight for gender equality is still essential. About three quarters of our province has no access to an abortion and the only clinics left here are privatised ones where you have to pay outside the medicare system. As well rapes happen frequently in my neighbourhood, sexual harassment is not terribly unusual, even amongst more progressive types (including men who call themselves feminists) and this impacts everyone negatively. While there is no doubt certain strands of feminism that I will have nothing to do with,I feel very strongly that feminism is inseparable from the class struggle. It's not just about when the working class has power but in how we organise here and now.