define nation, nationalism, national liberation movement

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AndrewF
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Jul 25 2007 13:10
John. wrote:
If I had said it about all republican prisoners it would of course be nonsense.

In the original discussion about 18 months back you did say it about all prisoners and you did then defend your refusal to extend the same logic to all British soldiers on the basis that they were economic conscripts.

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Jul 25 2007 13:20
JoeBlack2 wrote:
John. wrote:
If I had said it about all republican prisoners it would of course be nonsense.

In the original discussion about 18 months back you did say it about all prisoners and you did then defend your refusal to extend the same logic to all British soldiers on the basis that they were economic conscripts.

Sorry, you can't misrepresent what people said on the internet, because what they said is still on the internet. Please note your worst misrepresenation of me that I said bastards, when in fact I said scumbags and arseholes:

John. wrote:
JoeBlack2 wrote:
John. wrote:
presumably you wouldn't actually be upset if some pub-bombing scumbag got interned

Time has passed so I guess its easy today to come out with this formulation now but when I became politically active there were quite a large number of innocent Irish people in jail in Britain because all the state had to do was accuse them of being a 'pub-bombing scumbag' to silence debate.

From this and the rest of your argument here you don't seem to contradict my point:

John. wrote:
As revol again points out, the only reason you would argue against such repression is because it may either be used against the working class, or because innocent workers might be punished instead (presumably you wouldn't actually be upset if some pub-bombing scumbag got interned).

So you can still criticis repressive legislation on a class basis without "defending" criminal nationalist murdering arseholes.

My bit in bold is to indicate the phrase used to describe the same hypothetical person.
http://libcom.org/forums/thought/for-john-how-is-the-wsm-soft-on-nationalism

edited to add - of course I wouldn't have said that about all republican prisoners anyway, because similarly to British soldiers I'd assume that most had never killed anyone.

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Jul 25 2007 13:26

Thats a six month old thread, the one I remember was from around 18 months ago and I've already acknowledged that you have changed your position since.

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Joseph Kay
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Jul 25 2007 13:46

Joe, the only way-back thread i can find with the phrase murdering bastards is you complaining about libertarians in general saying it:

JoeBlack2 wrote:
Most libertarian stuff of that period [1980s] is either 'IRA murdering bastards' or 'IRA freedom fighters'

http://libcom.org/forums/libcommunity/wsm-cartoon-from-1992#comment-26554 - a thread discussing this graphic:

and John. wasn't involved. do you have a link?

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Jul 25 2007 13:52
Joseph K. wrote:
Joe, the only way-back thread i can find with the phrase murdering bastards is you complaining about libertarians in general saying it

Nope thats a 3 year old thread and not the one I was thinking of.

I have actually tried to find the thread without success so far, I guess its possible it got deleted or lost in one of the updates. In any case seeing as how that is no longer his position its really not that important now.

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Jul 25 2007 13:55
JoeBlack2 wrote:
Thats a six month old thread, the one I remember was from around 18 months ago and I've already acknowledged that you have changed your position since.

That was never my position, you're lying to try to back up your ridiculous attempt at a slur.

If I did say it it'll be on here - let's see then.

And how about telling me how I've threatened you as well?

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Jul 25 2007 13:57
JoeBlack2 wrote:
Joseph K. wrote:
Joe, the only way-back thread i can find with the phrase murdering bastards is you complaining about libertarians in general saying it

Nope thats a 3 year old thread and not the one I was thinking of.

I have actually tried to find the thread without success so far, I guess its possible it got deleted or lost in one of the updates.

No, you're invented it to try to justify your stupid lies.

Quote:
In any case seeing as how that is no longer his position its really not that important now.

You're a bullshitter. I thought better of you than this. roll eyes

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Jul 25 2007 13:57

2 years ol i make it. i think the only time we lost data was in the hack, which was about 12 months ago. don't think we lost much but i wasn't an admin then. searching didn't throw up any results quoting it either, so is it possible you've conflated your at least 2-year old distaste for libertarians calling the IRA murdering bastards (or freedom fighters) with what John. actually said?

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Jul 25 2007 13:59

the wayback machine is down at the moment but that might have a pre-hack snapshot

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Jul 25 2007 14:02
Joseph K. wrote:
2 years ol i make it. i think the only time we lost data was in the hack, which was about 12 months ago. don't think we lost much but i wasn't an admin then.

We lost discussions started in the month prior, so that wouldn't be it either. Of course, I never would have said that all republican prisoners were murdering bastards anyway, because it's obviously false - lots would've been in for other offences, or just fitted up, etc.

Quote:
searching didn't throw up any results quoting it either, so is it possible you've conflated your at least 2-year old distaste for libertarians calling the IRA murdering bastards (or freedom fighters) with what John. actually said?

That or he's made up the entire thing, hoping that if he repeats it enough times it'll become true, in the tradition of his fellow platformist "rise"

edited to add:
I'm pretty sure the first time I was called a big nation nationalist by Joe (which later mutated to English nationalist) was in the thread I linked to above, which is also the first time I mentioned republican prisoners - and people can see was where the subsequent discussion about the British army happened for the first time - only 6 odd months ago. It would seem strange that we would have exactly the same conversation twice 1 year apart, in one of them me saying something that I knew wasn't even close to being correct.

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Jul 25 2007 14:19

I've looked again and can't find it so I think there are 3 possibilities

1. It is there and I can't find it for some reason
2. It was never there and my memory is playing tricks with me most likely by confusing a post on some other board with this one
3. It was there but has been accidentally or delibretly removed or altered.

In the situation its fairest if I say my memory is playing tricks on me and John. never used the formulation I remembered him using.

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Jul 25 2007 14:25
JoeBlack2 wrote:
In the situation its fairest if I say my memory is playing tricks on me and John. never used the formulation I remembered him using.

That would also be also be the correct option. For starters, this row between us hasn't been going on for a year and a half, and secondly as I've said a fair few times I would never say all republican prisoners were murderers because obviously most aren't. I wouldn't say most fascist prisoners were murderers either, because they're not.

So Joe, how about some apology or retraction then?

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Jul 25 2007 14:33

That was a retraction which on its own is more than what is standard here.

Would you also like me to send you flowers?

Edited to replace conditional with retraction which was what I had intended to write

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Jul 25 2007 14:41

Actually I'll make it an apology

I've trawling through old thread with loads of search terms and I think I either confused you with someone else or misinterpretated something you wrote. Your few older posts which touch on this area do not contain positions that would be compatible with what I falsely rememebred.

In future I'll try to stick to quoting people rather than summarising what I think they said to avoid this sort of situation.

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Jul 25 2007 14:50
JoeBlack2 wrote:
Actually I'll make it an apology

I've trawling through old thread with loads of search terms and I think I either confused you with someone else or misinterpretated something you wrote. Your few older posts which touch on this area do not contain positions that would be compatible with what I falsely rememebred.

In future I'll try to stick to quoting people rather than summarising what I think they said to avoid this sort of situation.

Wow, well thank you.

I wasn't sure if you were mis-remembering or being deliberately dishonest. It's easy to mis-remember something. So cheers.

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Jul 25 2007 16:56

fair dues Joe, respect for saying that