Class War Bonfire Party

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Refused's picture
Refused
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Nov 10 2006 19:01

Parks?
BASTARDS!

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Alf
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Nov 11 2006 00:46

I think it was right for Devrim to draw attention to this. It's a new low in the long agony of Class War. It is despicably racist. It is almost designed to destroy any possibility of real class war politics reaching that considerable part of the working class which has illusions in Islam. It is diametrically opposed to the authentic methods the revolutionary movement has developed to combat religion. It can also lead to people who talk about class war or anarchism being attacked by Islamic fundamentalists.

On a previous thread about Class War's attitude to religion I attacked their 'atheism' for being no more than crude bourgeois atheism. I don't agree with Jack when he says he's not phased by these people burning effigies of Mohammed or Jesus. Marx for one considered the "poor carpenter put to death by the Romans" as one of our own; it is very probable that his teachings were derived from the communistic Essene sect. Both Christianity and Islam derived their original moral force from rebellions by the oppressed and exploited against the status quo. Of course they became integrated into a new status quo, but not without substantially altering their original ideals. Even then they could be the ideological expression of real historical progress. It's common knowledge for example that in many respects (science, medicine, philosophy...)the mediaeval Islamic empire was more advanced than the feudal Christian west. To win people away from religion, we have to have some understanding of its roots and its history.

I agree with John that people in Class War who post on libcom (if there are any) should answer the criticisms made on this thread. What they are doing is extremely dangerous and serves only the class enemy.

Caiman del Barrio
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Nov 11 2006 01:05
Jack wrote:
Who from CWF is gonna respond?

Paul flounced
gangster was banned and then expelled
JamesWalsh was banned
"Tall Chris" tried to troll, was caught and left
Leonard from Leominster flounced because (if I remember correctly) when we stopped being enrager (one of the 2 who actually did for all the threats)
andycrap hasn't posted for ages.

So only whoever controls CWF account.

Don't worry, Tacks will defend them. He gets turned on by fallacious positions.

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Nov 11 2006 01:15

An excellent post from Alf. cool

lem
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Nov 11 2006 01:34
Lone Wolf wrote:
An excellent post from Alf. cool

I do not disagree with Alf's post, but "artists" can get a bit carried away and not realize what they're making. Seriously like.

You think that someone said, "lets make it look like a hilarious stereotype". Well I dunno.

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Nov 11 2006 01:53
Caiman del Barrio wrote:
Jack wrote:
Who from CWF is gonna respond?

Paul flounced
gangster was banned and then expelled
JamesWalsh was banned
"Tall Chris" tried to troll, was caught and left
Leonard from Leominster flounced because (if I remember correctly) when we stopped being enrager (one of the 2 who actually did for all the threats)
andycrap hasn't posted for ages.

So only whoever controls CWF account.

Don't worry, Tacks will defend them. He gets turned on by fallacious positions.

oh, i hadn't seen this.

Before i respond properly, can you explain the personal attack there? What positions are those, by the way?

Could you also tell me what i attach myself to 'limpet like' that is 'beyond the pale' as you said on the other thread?

I don't get this sudden hostility. Yes i am close to Class War personally - am on friendly terms, but not in theory or practice. My opinions on them are free to see and only about a week old. If you want to read them they 3/4 way down this page

Caiman del Barrio
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Nov 11 2006 01:56

You wanna have a little tiff in Thought? Bitch, please, etiquette.

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Tacks
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Nov 11 2006 02:15

no, indeed i want to avoid one.

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Nov 11 2006 03:04
Serge wrote:
If it wasn't for the fact that they have an established connection with the anarchist scene, most anarcho-communists would not tolerate this shit.

They seem to be losing that connection pretty quick...

darren red star
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Nov 11 2006 11:48
Luther Blissett wrote:
London Class War/Class War Federation continue to miss the point of political activism, so we're going to stab them with it, since Anarchists are being virtually forced into denouncing the LCW/CWF position which promotes this kind of subpolitik as a substitute for activism and discourse.

The point we'd like to stab you with is that political and cultural blunder that the 'leadership' of London Class War/Class War Federation makes by burning the effigies of two very famous religious/political apostate Jews. What's all that about? Are Class War the new Sanhedrin? If they are, wouldn't it have been more appropriate to stone the effigies?

On a public level, if the Paul Marsh/Darren Redstar blundering version of 'Class War' continues to make protests in this way, then all of us enjoined in the class struggle might be tarred with the same brush.

On a subliminal level, such action could compromise the entire anarchist stance for disestablishmentarianism - the separation of religion from state.

Leaving aside Paul Marsh's unsavoury views about people of faith, I cannot for the life of me understand why the Class War Federation/London Class War should allow itself to be run by people who appear to be philosophically hostile to Anarchism.

wanker

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pingtiao
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Nov 11 2006 11:53

I don't think he actually wants to stab you Darren, don't worry.

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Tacks
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Nov 11 2006 13:57

who is luther blisset (the poster not the several-person author)

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madashell
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Nov 11 2006 14:18

Some liberal pacifist who runs a blog, insists that Ghandi was an anarchist.

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Nov 11 2006 15:55

Hi

Quote:
I would have thought it was from a BNP do.

Perhaps. But the Internationalist perspective sees anti-Fascism as a reactionary position, so it's not viable to condemn CW by association there.

Quote:
Marx for one considered the "poor carpenter put to death by the Romans" as one of our own; it is very probable that his teachings were derived from the communistic Essene sect

I see you’ve a whole new bag of nails to drive into communism’s coffin there Alf.

Love

LR

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Nov 11 2006 17:29
madashell wrote:
Some liberal pacifist who runs a blog, insists that Ghandi was an anarchist.

Just the kind of ppl CW are wary of offending. Target market innit.

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Nov 11 2006 17:38

Whether Luther Blissett is or isn't a wanker is not actually relevent in this discussion. What is relevent, is how Class War can justify this sort of action. I've known a few CW people over the years, and a few political differences aside, some of them were alright comrades. But this episode is frankly very disturbing and I can't for the life of me see what it has to do with revolutionary class politics. By pandering to race and national politics, it seems to be doing just the opposite. So what's the story?

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Nov 11 2006 17:43

Apparently as an anarchist (TM) i am contractually obliged to register my disgust even tho other ppl have said it better before me:

What a stupid thing to do CW, you idiots. What were you thinking. Well, we all can see what u were thinking, but it was a stupid thing to think.

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Nov 11 2006 17:45

serge it was a crack at religion, of course, especially in light of the 'islamaphobia' rubbish. I don't think the ppl who made the effigy thought it was racist or intended it to be they just thought it should look arabic.

I don't think it needs close analysis or a statement from CW, they think it was a laugh and an in-ya-face to religion and trots, we think it was seriuously misjudged and divisive.

Caiman del Barrio
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Nov 11 2006 17:54

Of course it wasn't intentional. That's kinda the point: it demonstrates how little distance there is between Class War and conventional right wing tabloidism. The form naturally lends itself towards bigotry and ignorance cos its patronising over-simplification leads to a blurring/smudging of facts.

Luther Blissett
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Nov 11 2006 18:05
Tacks wrote:
who is luther blisset (the poster not the several-person author)

May I refer you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Blissett_(nom_de_plume), and then perhaps add a suitably gnomic comment along the lines of "we're 'all' Luther Blissett", including ViolentPanda, Geoffrey Cohen, and quite a few other Urbanite 'Jewdassees'

btw, wanking is good for you wink

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Nov 11 2006 18:15
Luther Blissett wrote:
May I refer you to

No.

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Nov 11 2006 18:22
Caiman del Barrio wrote:
Of course it wasn't intentional. That's kinda the point: it demonstrates how little distance there is between Class War and conventional right wing tabloidism. The form naturally lends itself towards bigotry and ignorance cos its patronising over-simplification leads to a blurring/smudging of facts.

I think you may well be right about this.

Mike Harman
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Nov 11 2006 23:01
Serge Forward wrote:
Well, yes. Take that image out of context, add the caption "Here's what the anarchists are up to", then it really makes anarchists look like total racist twats. Class War really do need to engage their collective brain before they do stuff.

A very good mate from work is "muslim", and lives not too far from that fireworks party, I've had a load of open and frank discussions about politics and religion with him and I also know he'd be well freaked out by that photo. Stuff like this does make anarchists look like complete cunts, and I'll be doubly careful not to call myself one again. It's fucking embarrassing.

Mike Harman
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Nov 11 2006 23:06
Serge Forward wrote:
Madashell, I know you're not wink

This really does piss me off though. I work, associate and am friends people from a lot of different backgrounds, some of them from muslim backgrounds. They're not religious nutters, they're working class people trying to get by and are as open to revolutionary ideas as much as anybody else is. But I have no doubt that this sort of thing would be pretty upsetting to them. And as I am known locally as an anarchist, I'd rather not be in any way connected to this sort of racist wank. And I do not wish any of my mates to be asking me if this is the sort of thing I got up to on bommy night.

Just saw this after I posted mine, says everything.

gerrardw
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Nov 11 2006 23:17

I didnt get that it was meant to be Mohammed, I just thought they were burning an effigy of yer average muslim arab for fuck sake! I reckon more people would have thought the same. This is shocking, stupid, racist bollocks, perfect for further dividing the working class. Well done to every moron involved.

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Nov 11 2006 23:35
gerrardw wrote:
I didnt get that it was meant to be Mohammed, I just thought they were burning an effigy of yer average muslim arab for fuck sake!

Yeah, especially as he's holding a Koran, and as others have pointed out Mohammed never would've done that. Still no comments other than darren saying "wanker", which is a real shame.

Mike Harman
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Nov 11 2006 23:39

Generally we don't encourage arguments spilling over to other forums, but a few of them post on mwatb, and there's already a thread about it here

it might be worth reposting over there if you're registered.

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Steven.
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Nov 11 2006 23:42

Could you quote relevant bits for people who aren't registered there?

Mike Harman
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Nov 11 2006 23:53

It's all cheerleading one-liners. Nothing to quote really.

The closest thing to a grain of truth is Mr Lustbather saying

Quote:
Why is mo dreesed like scrooge??

Glory hunter
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Nov 12 2006 20:04

Don't know if any of you noticed, but on the Class war section there is a thread by CWF in which they state their decision to abandon this place.
When Class war started, most of what passed for an anarchist movement would happily have seen a pit open up below it and engulf it for ever. Its been that way ever since, its always been something that you either loved or hated. Myself, I have done both at different times, sometimes not knowing whether to laugh or cry.
With Libcom though, its been hatred and disrespect for the most part hasn't it, from people whom my own general attitude towards, would be, who the fuck are you ? Because respect, is something that cuts two ways.
There is no perfect politics, everything is a combination of strengths and weaknesses, good parts and bad parts, and Class war has always been a very very long way from perfect, and if we are talking about agony, and the kind of pain that I can feel from afar, then I would have to admit that yes, even the ICC has its strengths.
The problem has been, that many of you conspire to see class war's weaknesses, but you are blind to it's strengths and always have been, and it has had more strengths than anything I have ever encountered in my time involved with "radical politics"
The hatred here is palpable isn't it, and over what ? the fact that they burned an effigy of Mohammed, really ? so what.
I really can't see what the problem is. Would it have been ok if it had been a non stereotypical effigy, if that was possible, being as the whole point of effigys is that they are stereotypical.
It was a 5th of november party wasn't it, of course it was childish, whats the problem with being childish once and a while.
This thread is fucking surreal, what with the big cheese of the ICC prattling on about jesus being "Communistic" if any one from Class war had of said that, they would have been on their back in a moments notice about it being bourgeois this that and the other, he well may have been, but that's more than outwayed by the subsequent two thousand years of mostly reactionary bollocks.
So, this place is so mealy mouthed, bland and insipid now that it's out of order to have a go at religion, for fear of offending anybody, fucking sad. You know very well that there was no racist intention in it, anybody with an once of common sense could have seen that.
May I suggest that if anyone is really concerned about working class unity, and the good name of revolutionary class politics, that you take one second to consider the monotonous, tedious, repetitive, flippant, inconsequential, unimaginative, and sometimes downright spiteful nature of some of the posts on here, and the effect that has on the public perception of Anarchism, also that something that should be a politically aggressive and direct phenomenon is increasingly reduced to being nothing more than a talking shop, to the happiness of some and the annoyance of others.
Individuals within Class war are wondering whether they have anything in common with SOME of you anymore, that is a sentiment with which I entirely sympathise, most of the time when I look here, I don't feel uplifted, I just feel angry, about something that is a fucking clique, and I know that those feelings are not only confined to Class war and myself.
You know, burning effigys is not particularly to my taste, but you have over reacted to it, and the intense dislike of Class war, has blinded you to this.

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