Civilised green anarchism?

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Logic
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Nov 4 2004 23:32
Civilised green anarchism?

Can anyone inform me as to any websites with information on green anarchist ideologies which do not reject civilisation/technology? Cheers!

Username
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Nov 5 2004 01:53

you should search the internet for green anarchist websites and forums if none of those sites are for civilization. once you get to the forums, ask this question, again.

nuclearcivvy
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Nov 5 2004 03:16

Anarchy? Civilised?

Anarch
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Nov 5 2004 03:18

What the fuck is the point of green anarchism? All anarchists want to keep the environment healthy. Anarchism already has a green component. As far as I can tell green anarchism is just a haven for peope with severly outlandish ideas that will only alienate the working class. It is an unescessary divison whose best adherents are generally misguided, and it's worst are anti-civ wackos. I think the whole lot should just go and live in the woods and pretend that passing planes are angry gods.

star green black = confused

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cantdocartwheels
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Nov 5 2004 10:25
Anarch wrote:
What the fuck is the point of green anarchism? All anarchists want to keep the environment healthy. Anarchism already has a green component. As far as I can tell green anarchism is just a haven for peope with severly outlandish ideas that will only alienate the working class.

He's not asking for ''Green Anarchism'' and primmo bollocks, he's asking for anarchist sites with a decent green critique. Which actually there is a severe lack of.

If I wanted a proper material analysis of the environement and industry with scientifically worked out industrial solutions with FACTS AND FIGURES then where can i go?

http://www.social-ecology.org/ wouldbe the sort of thing your looking for but its a bit out of date and relies too much on bookchins vagueness. http://www.social-ecology.org/staticpages/index.php?page=library&topic=online_library

In terms of marxism there are a few of the new green-left type groups, although there not really anarchist and are susually drifiting to the right and reformism, even if they operate and organise more inclusively than trots.

Well worth a read are

The Sun Betrayed by Reece & The Greening of Marxism by Ted Benton

(while ted is by no means an anarchist this is theoretically one of the best works out there on green issues from a class struggle perspective)

If anyone can point me in the direction of some decent anarchist or marxist sites with a proper technological analysis then i'd be very grateful because at the moment we have to rely on liberal shit like

http://www.willnewman-littlesister.co.uk/powers.htm

john

ps Prmitivism as far as i'm concerned isn't anarchism, primitvism is a whacky cult that poses no real threat except to make anarchism look insane by association.

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Steven.
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Nov 5 2004 15:16

the AF have just written a new pamphlet - "where there's brass there's muck" about the environment... not read it yet tho

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JoeMaguire
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Nov 5 2004 16:07
Anarch wrote:
What the fuck is the point of green anarchism? All anarchists want to keep the environment healthy. Anarchism already has a green component.

star green black = confused

Anarchism is a DIY philosphy therefore if someone as a specific issue they wish to relate to whats so wrong with that?

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JoeMaguire
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Nov 5 2004 16:37

damn, I left the leninists because I was tired of their uniform politics....

What I mean is that while unity is important, there will always be issues which most anarchists dont naturally have preference towards. Feminism, animal rights, ecological destruction etc...

nastyned
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Nov 5 2004 17:52
revol68 wrote:
fuck me, that AF pamphlet is hardly new,

A new, updated edition has just been brought out.

3rdseason
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Nov 5 2004 18:50
revol68 wrote:
eg random's "empowering women in the boardroom" nonsense.

I dont think she said that.

Green anarchism is awesome. star green black

Mike Harman
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Nov 5 2004 21:02

Haven't checked out enough Bookchin to give good recommendations, but he's been writing about ecology since the early '60s or before, and has spent a lot of time since then pointing out how stupid primitivism and anti-civ theories are.

Haven't read it, but The Ecology of Freedom (early '80s) is supposed to be one of the better ones.

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Nov 6 2004 14:05
cantdocartwheels wrote:
He's not asking for ''Green Anarchism''. [. . .]

yes he/she pretty much is.

revol68 wrote:
yes but without a coherent (class wink )analysis bringing all those spheres together we end up in all sorts of muddled thinking and actions.

class analysis is bullshit. well, okay, it's reformist, but it's not the end all, be all. class doesn't mean everything to every anarchist. to some anarchists, civilization means everything.

3rdseason
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Nov 6 2004 15:28
revol68 wrote:
username go drown urself!

Its not class. grin

3rdseason
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Nov 6 2004 15:32
revol68 wrote:
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I didnt put down any of the class struggle feds sites because Im not into that but I will include them cos I knew other people would request them. What are their addresses??

how can u be an anrcha feminist or even a feminist without being interested in class issues?? considering a huge part of womens oppression is economic and that women are exploited for capital in every realm how can u be a serious feminist and "not be into that"?

Maybe she just meant she wasnt interested in any of the feds i.e class war, afed and solfed... and to be perfectly honest neither am I.

I thought random was cool. Although I shifted my views on porn haha. Bought me some filth today actually

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JDMF
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Nov 7 2004 08:16
revol68 wrote:

My problem isn't with any of those issues, my problem is with people who compartmentalise struggles, so that say on monday they do their class collaborationist feminism/ anti racism, on tuesday their liberal ecological stuff and then on say a friday they do their class stuff.

hey you know i agree with the sentiment in the background, but in practise that is how "we" (activisty wanking lifestylist single issue whatever) end up doing it.

How else would you do it?

Lets take an example of a class struggle anarchist who works in HIV/AIDS campaigns, and for arguments sake does that on tuesdays and saturdays. After an "activisty wanky" action to raise awareness he is now interviewed by the local media. Should he:

1. Talk about class struggle and how HIV/AIDS can only be eliminated via class war, people should organise in their communities and workplaces and bakunin had a great arse.

or

2. talk about HIV/AIDS, sexual politics, drug companies, respect for infected people and so on.

I mean it all too easy to attack campaigners/activists/people who are involved in a campaign which hasn't been approved by the Central Class Struggle Authority (TM), a lot of people get unnecessary shit on this board and funnily enough don't say about it too much (perhaps because of a fear of getting flamed even more).

It's easy to talk on an abstract level, anyone who has been knocking some books can do that, but some practical examples of how we should be carrying out our work would take this argument forwards. I mean the stuff we (as in people involved in different campaigns blah blah) is hard enough as it is, and i have always kept a class perspective in the stuff that i do. But still for some this would not be enough and i would still qualify as a lifestylist activisty wanker.

Logic
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Nov 7 2004 13:06
Quote:
He's not asking for ''Green Anarchism'' and primmo bollocks, he's asking for anarchist sites with a decent green critique. Which actually there is a severe lack of.

If I wanted a proper material analysis of the environement and industry with scientifically worked out industrial solutions with FACTS AND FIGURES then where can i go?

Thats pretty much what I was getting at. It's ironic how many primitivist websites there are on the internet! grin

Thanks everyone!

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JDMF
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Nov 7 2004 16:19

in that case my fried, we agree about this issue wholeheartedly. I just get confused when you attack people who might be involved in a campaign or some issue, and then called a lifestylist or wanky activist.

What ever i do, i'll try to keep the class perspective, even in issues like animal and vegan stuff. And i think we can trust most people on these boards to do the same to an extent they see is necessary and beneficial.