anti germans

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tastypudding
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Jan 28 2008 12:15
Khawaga wrote:
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ah, the great dresden swindle, always a classic.

So 25-40.000 dead is a swindle? You echo those Holocaust deniers/skeptics that argue that there were work camps, but only a few thousands died because of disease not intentional murder.

haha, you´ve clearly thought that one through.

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What's your point anyway tastypudding? That Germans are evil, or have a special capacity for evil?

yes, that´s exactly my point. which is why i didn´t say anything even remotely close to it.

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Khawaga
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Jan 28 2008 13:04

I am actually interested in what your point is/was. I couldn't see any point to your previous post so I asked. Ffs.

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Tacks
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Jan 28 2008 15:00
tastypudding wrote:
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What's your point anyway tastypudding? That Germans are evil, or have a special capacity for evil?

yes, that´s exactly my point.

It's set in stone now.

RedHughs
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Jan 29 2008 00:21
Yoshomon wrote:
Unlike other racist ideologies, anti-semitism is a complete worldview and explanation of history and also a "critique" of finance capital. Historically it has expressed itself as a drive to exterminate jews (not enslave or imprison or make 'second class citizens'). I think it has a very different dynamic than say racism against chicano or black people.

Each of these prejudices or whatever you call them is different in various ways from each other one. What is the difference that makes a difference? Beyond the claim that one of these is a world view, what is it about the differences we might talk about that requires a communist praxis to focus on them?

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Tacks
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Jan 29 2008 02:31
Yoshomon wrote:
Unlike other racist ideologies, anti-semitism is a complete worldview and explanation of history and also a "critique" of finance capital. Historically it has expressed itself as a drive to exterminate jews (not enslave or imprison or make 'second class citizens'). I think it has a very different dynamic than say racism against chicano or black people.

yeeeeeeah....

yoshomon
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Jan 29 2008 04:08
RedHughs wrote:
Yoshomon wrote:
Unlike other racist ideologies, anti-semitism is a complete worldview and explanation of history and also a "critique" of finance capital. Historically it has expressed itself as a drive to exterminate jews (not enslave or imprison or make 'second class citizens'). I think it has a very different dynamic than say racism against chicano or black people.

Each of these prejudices or whatever you call them is different in various ways from each other one. What is the difference that makes a difference? Beyond the claim that one of these is a world view, what is it about the differences we might talk about that requires a communist praxis to focus on them?

I am not defending the anti-german thesis nor do I think anti-semitism should be the 'focus of communist praxis'. I am only saying there are clear differences between anti-semitism and other racist ideologies I've come across (especially in relation to the Left).

It is very possible that there are other racist ideologies that I'm unaware of that have a similar dynamic to anti-semitism, but they certainly don't have the global reach or historical significance.

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Khawaga
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Jan 29 2008 06:34
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It is very possible that there are other racist ideologies that I'm unaware of that have a similar dynamic to anti-semitism, but they certainly don't have the global reach or historical significance.

The point is that it is still racism, and as we all know there is plently of bigotry to around for everyone so why should the bigotry towards one group of people be treated as some special case?

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Tacks
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Jan 29 2008 21:20

This thread has been really great.

One of the best, i say.

Angelus Novus
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Jan 29 2008 22:28
Kim Müller wrote:
Do you have any links to these texts by Wildcat?

Not all of the stuff from that period is online, but one text is:

http://www.wildcat-www.de/wildcat/60/w60rosto.htm

Awful, awful stuff. Wildcat is a very worthwhile publication with a lot of useful articles on developments in capitalism, but their operaist sympathies really get in the way of a clear analysis of fascist tendencies in the BRD.

mK ultra wrote:
Anti-semitism is a problematic term in many contexts because there are other speakers of semitic languages than Jews. Using anti-semitism to refer exclusively to anti-Jewish prejudice disappears Arabs and what is being done to them today by Israel, the U.S., Britain etc.

Don't be a cretin. You're playing semantic games. Anti-semitism is the historical name adopted and self-applied by anti-Jewish political parties in Wilhelmine Germany. Anti-semitism is near universally understood in most European languages to refer to antipathy towards Jews.

mK ultra wrote:
the survivors of the colonization and their families are strugglinng for the right of return

Since we're playing semantic games, a formulation like "right" has literally no meaning outside of the framework of codified legal structures. Insistence upon this or that "right" is a strange game for alleged anarchists or anti-state communists to play.

robot wrote:
classwar as the motor of history never had much impact on the radical-left milieu in Germany

Class struggle as the motor of history is an incredibly stupid idea. Certainly class struggle has been a consistent aspect of all known recorded history, but one would be hard pressed to demonstrate that it's the motor of history. You might as well argue that atoms are the motor of history, or infectious disease.

RedHughs wrote:
what is it about the differences we might talk about that requires a communist praxis to focus on them?

Finally, a substantive question.

I won't presume to speak for the Anti-Germans, just give my own perspective. I maintain that the Shoah poses serious problems for an optimistic conception of the struggle for communism, anticipated by Walter Benjamin in his theses on the philosophy of history with the critique of the German workers movement believing that it was marching with the tide of history, etc.

The German workers movement, Social Democratic, Stalinist, Trotskyist, anarchist, failed to prevent the rise of National Socialism, and the German working-class participated in the war and in the destruction of the European Jews.

Besides the sheer irrationality of a nation-state diverting essential and valuable resources from its war effort in order that it could eliminate a racially-defined minority, I think it's worth investigating the phenomenon of modern Anti-Semitism (as opposed to the religious Jew hatred of the middle-ages) as a foreshortened form of anti-capitalism focused on the circulation sphere. I think where the Wertkritiker and their Anti-German cousins go wrong is in trying to directly derive anti-semitism from the commodity-form, but I do think the opacity of fetishized social relations in capitalism makes people susceptible to all sorts of ideological ways of coming to terms with their position in society. At the very least, this should call into question the notion that struggles within capitalism automatically have a potential to transcend capitalism.

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Tacks
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Jan 30 2008 14:12

You're talking shit mate.

Angelus Novus
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Jan 30 2008 16:07
Tacks wrote:
You're talking shit mate.

You, on the other hand, have absolutely nothing to say, yet you still won't shut up!

Angelus Novus
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Jan 30 2008 16:14
revol68 wrote:
well if you find me some struggles outside of capitalism I'll be sure to check them out.

I think struggles against proletarianization, whether historical (artisans and peasants resisting expropriation and proletarianization) or contemporary (Zapatistas), have an anti-capitalist logic, even if they are not temporally or geographically outside of capitalism.

Struggles over wages or working time within capitalism, however, have no automatic anti-capitalist dynamic. There's no getting around the fact that the idea of communism needs propagation. For that reason, I think intellectual honesty demands that communists make clear, transparent arguments for their ideas, rather than hoping to find a golden ticket in some struggle in which they project their revolutionary hopes.

Here in Germany at the moment, there seems to be a real "reading Capital" movement, a development that I find very encouraging. I think more communists should read Capital, rather than projecting the arrival of revolution everytime Walnut Shellers Local 832 strikes for an extra 32 cents an hour.

Barry Kade
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Feb 8 2008 02:51

STRUCTURE / AGENCY REVISITED and Die Antideutschen?

On the one extreme we are plagued by a massive rise in conspiracy theory - the various 9/11 truth cults and the like represent only a tip of the iceberg. In this view an all powerful but tiny and secretive ruling elite makes every move in history, and understandings of the social processes that generate and perpetuate capitalism are eclipsed. The spread of such pernicious crap threatens to engulf and disarm critical resistance, and is easily infected by anti-semitism and other mystifications.

At the other extreme you have the likes of Die Antideutschen - who acknowledge only abstract social process, because they want to claim any attempt to describe a ruling class is somehow anti-Semitic.

The first things to say to this is that if one was to map the personnel of the ruling class the obvious fact would emerge that most of its 'members' are not Jewish. Perversely the Antideutsch here seem to be reproducing in inverse the notorious old 'Socialism of Fools' .

But taking a step back from the immediate questions of Racism(s), Zionism and Imperialism, another aspect of this dumb polarity reminds me of the old Structure / Agency conundrum in social theory. Staying on either end or of this polarity obscures how history is made. Suffice it to say that we can talk of the personification of capitalism, that social processes are not abstract and disembodied, and that actual human beings form classes through their mutual antagonism around relations of production. Er, so....

"Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past" The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte. Marx 1852 Etc etc.

But it seems the Antideutsch like the pose of taking the extreme, like all infantile leftists. They take this pose in their theories, by determinedly grasping only one part of history's dialectic. They also like the shock value of the extreme pose of parading the flags of ethno-nationalist supremacists and colonialists or celebrating the bombing of working class people in Dresden. Shame.

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Tacks
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Feb 8 2008 12:13
Angelus Novus wrote:
Tacks wrote:
You're talking shit mate.

You, on the other hand, have absolutely nothing to say, yet you still won't shut up!

i'll say this much:

you are a racist idiot, i hope you soon receive the sort of reception you'd get in england with your dangerous nonsense.

Go home and die.

yoshomon
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Feb 8 2008 14:09
Tacks wrote:
Angelus Novus wrote:
Tacks wrote:
You're talking shit mate.

You, on the other hand, have absolutely nothing to say, yet you still won't shut up!

i'll say this much:

you are a racist idiot, i hope you soon receive the sort of reception you'd get in england with your dangerous nonsense.

Go home and die.

What?

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Tacks
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Feb 8 2008 14:20

jews=zionism

is

racism

yoshomon
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Feb 8 2008 14:35
Tacks wrote:
jews=zionism

is

racism

Who argued that all Jews were Zionists?

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Feb 8 2008 14:42

anti-germans you fucking numpty!!!

thats the whole point - criticise zionism, and in their eyes you are criticising ALL JEWS and are an anti-jewish racist.

Funking bananas i know, but that's the crux of it.

Whilst the jerries aren't exactly a race, their suppositon that they are somehow essentially evil and can never be anything but, is pretty racist too.

anti-germans are sad, divisive idiots. As i said, the uk has as shit a political scene as they come, but at least they couldn't pull this kind of thing here.

yoshomon
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Feb 8 2008 16:23

...but Angelus Novus isn't an anti-German.

sphinx
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Feb 8 2008 16:43
Tacks wrote:

you are a racist idiot, i hope you soon receive the sort of reception you'd get in england with your dangerous nonsense.

Go home and die.

Maybe you should re-read that post Devrim made about youth gangs.

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Tacks
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Feb 8 2008 17:40

Maybe you should see which bathroom bleach you prefer the flavour of.

Angelus Novus
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Feb 9 2008 21:27
yoshomon wrote:
...but Angelus Novus isn't an anti-German.

Tacks has severe reading comprehension problems.

yoshomon
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Mar 7 2008 14:25

Antinationalist Nationalism - The Anti-German Critique and Its All-Too-German Adherents:

http://www.crimethinc.com/texts/rollingthunder/antinationalist.php

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Tacks
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Mar 11 2008 10:16

so far liking that...

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Tacks
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Mar 11 2008 10:22

yep. Good info in that. Fair play to the primmo.

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Khawaga
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Mar 15 2008 16:12

very good article.

mel
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Mar 15 2008 17:14
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thats the whole point - criticise zionism, and in their eyes you are criticising ALL JEWS and are an anti-jewish racist.

is it?

and is it racist?

and is it really jews = zionism? i think it says that all jews stand in some relation to zionism; it seems almost mystical rather than actually racist.

not that i care i just hate tacks when he's like this tongue

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Mar 19 2008 11:28
mel wrote:
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thats the whole point - criticise zionism, and in their eyes you are criticising ALL JEWS and are an anti-jewish racist.

is it?

and is it racist?

and is it really jews = zionism? i think it says that all jews stand in some relation to zionism; it seems almost mystical rather than actually racist.

i don't really know what your asking there... If you are asking if this is the case, then yes, it is.

In my experience of the comparatively tame zionist movment in the UK, abti-semitic is the first thing they call you. A zionist mature student beat up a SSWP kiddy for putting up palestine stickers at my university; he pre-empted his arrest by going to the police FIRST and claiming he was being racially harassed by the trot.

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not that i care i just hate tacks when he's like this tongue

are you a returning poster of s different name?

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Mar 19 2008 11:30

Ant-Deutsche thinking has penetrated all levels of german politics - well done guys, Merkel is on board

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/19/germany.secondworldwar

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Mar 19 2008 11:52
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are you a returning poster of s different name?

mel = lem

and s/he's come back here under other nicks as well as far as I can tell.