anti germans

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Angelus Novus
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Jan 27 2008 12:49
Asher wrote:
In this, anti-Deutsch share a similar tactic (and I'm not equating them here) to the Israeli state (and also many of the large US Jewish institutions) - they are extremely good at convincing their target audiences that there is no such thing as autonomous resistance by Palestinians, and that every piece of resistance is driven by Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc. And when they

Who is *they* in the example above?

Unless you can specify what tendency you are referring to, there is absolutely no substantive point being made above.

Do you understand the point being made here at all? If I posted a statement like:

"Anarchists share a similar tactic with trailer trash, in that they both like to fuck their sisters"

you would reasonably ask me to specify which anarchists, no?

Angelus Novus
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Jan 27 2008 12:52
revol68 wrote:
so are you suggesting there are 'anti german' tendencies with resonance and relevance outside of germany?

I am suggesting that some anti-germans, just like some anarchists, some council communists, some trotskyists, and some social democratics, sometimes say things which are true or relevant.

For example, Phase 2 published an excellent special issue a year or two ago concerning Foucault and Biopolitik. Some of the contributions in that issue I would gladly translate, especially given the interest in Biopolitik sparked by Hardt & Negri's book in most western countries. The fact that the editors of Phase 2 are Anti-Germans is irrelevant.

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Anarchia
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Jan 27 2008 12:59
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Who is *they* in the example above?

As I defined it - anti-Deutsch, the Israeli state and many of the large US Jewish institutions. Which tendencies of anti-Deutsch? I don't know the names, and couldn't care less - it has certainly been a defining feature of all the anti-Deutsch material I have read (a fair amount, although certainly not what I would define as extensive) and the anti-Deutsch people I have talked to, both in person and online (a handful). I have seen nothing to indicate that this might not be a recurring feature across the various strains of anti-Deutsch thought.

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If I posted a statement like:

"Anarchists share a similar tactic with trailer trash, in that they both like to fuck their sisters"

That is completely different, in that I can damn near guarantee that fucking your sister is not a common argument in the anarchist theory you have read, whereas what I was talking about is obviously pervasive in the propaganda and theory of anti-Deutsch, the Israeli state and many of the large US Jewish institutions.

edit - just wanted to add my agreement with revol's two posts above this one.

edit 2 - its 2:17am and i'm going to bed, so no more from me tonight...

Angelus Novus
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Jan 27 2008 13:19
revol68 wrote:
and where exactly does communism come from? is it a fully formed political goal that people straight forwardly fight to implement or is it a potentiality that stems from working class self organisation and concrete struggles against alienation, exploitation and the day to day tedium, humiliation and poverty of everyday life?

Should we open up a new thread? I think this has the potential of being an interesting discussion.

Short answer: I don't think communism is "the real movement", and I think the analysis of the fetish character of the commodity in Capital indicates that Marx broke with such historical-philosophical conceptions.

In The Communist Manifesto and the German Ideology, Marx still argues that with the bourgeoisification of society, that social relations become more transparent. In Capital, he argues exactly the opposite. Social relations in capitalism are in fact mystified, it's a different type of mystification than that which exists in pre-capitalist societies.

Angelus Novus
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Jan 27 2008 13:23
revol68 wrote:
Are such relevant insights exclusive to or even relevant to their actual anti germanism?

Exclusive? Perhaps not. But definitely relevant. When someone like Andrea Trumann criticizes thinkers like Agamben for insufficiently theorizing the differences between German national socialism and Italian fascism, it has at least something to do with the specificity of her political background.

Angelus Novus
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Jan 27 2008 13:26
Asher wrote:
it has certainly been a defining feature of all the anti-Deutsch material I have read (a fair amount, although certainly not what I would define as extensive)

Assertion. Sources?

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I have seen nothing to indicate that this might not be a recurring feature across the various strains of anti-Deutsch thought.

Then you would be completely wrong. For one, because groups like Cafe Morgenland take the position that German leftists shouldn't formulate a position on Israel-Palestine one way or the other. And second, because for the hardcore racist Anti-Germans in the Bahamas milieu, the existence of an autonomous Palestinian resistance independent of Hamas or Fatah would be an irrelevancy, since Palestinians as a national entity are condemned as eliminatory anti-semites.

So you're talking out of your ass again.

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whereas what I was talking about is obviously pervasive in the propaganda and theory of anti-Deutsch

Sources, please.

Angelus Novus
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Jan 27 2008 13:30
revol68 wrote:
why I said the it is a 'potentiality', that is it still needs to made.

"Potentiality" here is pretty weak concepts. When I leave my house every morning, there's a potentiality that someone will hand me a 500 euro note, but it's not very likely.

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The idea that Marx makes some break is absolute shit.

I disagree, but if we argue this, it should be in a new thread. I don't want to taint such a discussion with all the half-assed speculation on this one.

Angelus Novus
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Jan 27 2008 13:33
revol68 wrote:
The fact that some anti germans say some interesting and relevant things on some topics doesn't change the fact the central tenant of it is german centric and irrelevant to the rest of the world. Even the example you give there is one of them emphasising the particularism of German fascism.

You think the particularity of National Socialism is irrelevant to the rest of the world? I disagree. For one thing, it's just piss-poor analysis to subsume it under the label of "fascism", which is a bad theoretical inheritance from the Stalinist conceptions formulated by Dimitroff.

Angelus Novus
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Jan 27 2008 13:47
revol68 wrote:
National Socialism was a form of fascism, yes.

And you think it's a question that has no relevance outside of Germany to ask why Anti-Semitism is an end in itself for this form of "fascism"? Why did these particular fascists endanger their own war effort by diverting valuable resources to the destruction of Jews?

This is a serious question, if you want to discuss it, again, new thread. I don't want it to be embedded in wild speculations about what an Anti-German is by people who've seen as many Anti-Germans as they have unicorns.

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Khawaga
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Jan 27 2008 13:50
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And you think it's a question that has no relevance of Germany to ask why Anti-Semitism in an end in itself for this form of "fascism"? Why did these particular fascists endanger their own war effort by diverting valuable resources to the destruction of Jews?

Ffs, he is saying that it has no relevance outside of Germany. Which has been his point all along.

Angelus Novus
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Jan 27 2008 13:51
Khawaga wrote:
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And you think it's a question that has no relevance of Germany to ask why Anti-Semitism in an end in itself for this form of "fascism"? Why did these particular fascists endanger their own war effort by diverting valuable resources to the destruction of Jews?

Ffs, he is saying that it has no relevance outside of Germany. Which has been his point all along.

Let me get this straight: The Holocaust has no relevance outside of Germany?

Fuck's sake, no wonder you're so tone deaf about anti-semitism on the left.

Angelus Novus
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Jan 27 2008 14:01
revol68 wrote:
The point was that the central political tenant of 'anti deutsch' has little relevance or resonance outside of Germany.

What is the central political tenant of all those diverse tendencies?

Careful, your credibility rests upon your ability to give a correct answer.

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Khawaga
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Jan 27 2008 14:02
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Let me get this straight: The Holocaust has no relevance outside of Germany?

Damn, you just choose to read things in the most peculiar way.

I wasn't referring to the holocaust. We're discussing the anti-germans no? They have little relevance outside of Germany. You might loose sight of the discussion, but unless I've completely misunderstood Asher, Devrim and Revol they have consistently referred to the anti-Germans. And how on earth could anything called anti-Deutsch have relevance outside of Deutschland since it is rooted in the specifics of the German collective experience.

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no wonder you're so tone deaf about anti-semitism on the left.

You can think what you want. You seem to be blind to anti-arabism left, right and center and also seems to think that the jews are the chosen people indeed. Anti-semitism does figure on the left, but it is far from the preposterous proportions that is sometimes claimed. It doesn't come from being anti-semitic, just piss poor class analyses.

Angelus Novus
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Jan 27 2008 14:05
Khawaga wrote:
I wasn't referring to the holocaust. We're discussing the anti-germans no?

No, you idiot, the passage from me you quoted was concerning the specificity of National Socialism, and whether it can accurately be subsumed under the label of "fascism", given the centrality of the Holocaust and anti-semitism.

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also seems to think that the jews are the chosen people indeed.

Citations, please.

sphinx
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Jan 27 2008 15:21

It seems a bit facetious to accuse the anti-Germans of being 'irrelevant' outside of Germany when communism as an organized movement is not very relevant anywhere.

But that claim is false in itself. There are Austrian and Swiss groups who derive positions from groups which came out of the anti-german groups. Some anti-germans have also contributed articles to the Engage webjournal which indicates that they find a certain sympathy in the UK.

Khawaga

Quote:
Anti-semitism does figure on the left, but it is far from the preposterous proportions that is sometimes claimed. It doesn't come from being anti-semitic, just piss poor class analyses.

So anti-semitism is just a matter of bad class analysis huh...
I suppose we can say the same about racism, fagbashing, wifebeating etc. I mean why stop at anti-semitism? Anything could be usefully flattened into this category.
Fortunately however it is the anti-Germans (along with others who try to theorize the form of socialization) who try to determine _why_ the workers have bad class analysis.

P.S. Asher, still looking forward to your comments on Steal this Film II, don't forget!

Angelus Novus
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Jan 27 2008 16:17

accidental double post

Angelus Novus
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Jan 27 2008 16:18
sphinx wrote:
So anti-semitism is just a matter of bad class analysis huh...
I suppose we can say the same about racism, fagbashing, wifebeating etc. I mean why stop at anti-semitism? Anything could be usefully flattened into this category.

Yeah, according to this worldview, racists are never simply racists. Wifebeaters are never simply wifebeaters. Anti-semites are never simply anti-semites.

No, racists, wifebeaters, and anti-semites are all rather misled proletarian heroes, they all really want to do the right thing, it's just they have a bad class analysis.

Incidentally, the group Wildcat (Germany) pissed away a lot of its credibility in the 1990s with this sort of nonsense. When racist pogroms happened in places like Rostock-Lichtenhagen and Solingen, the Wildcat people tried to act like pogroms are simply a misconceived form of social protest.

If the Anti-Germans were able to win so much influence in the extra-parliamentary milieu, then it's at least partially due to the fact that groups like Wildcat were simply incapable of conceiving of proletarians as anything other than superheroes.

Quote:
Fortunately however it is the anti-Germans (along with others who try to theorize the form of socialization) who try to determine _why_ the workers have bad class analysis.

Yeah, but the Anti-Germans do a rather poor job of it. smile The sources they claim as influences are far better. Down with Joachim Bruhn and Stephan Grigat! Read Adorno and Postone instead!

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Khawaga
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Jan 27 2008 16:57
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So anti-semitism is just a matter of bad class analysis huh...
I suppose we can say the same about racism, fagbashing, wifebeating etc. I mean why stop at anti-semitism? Anything could be usefully flattened into this category

With reference to the Western left it is, since they've probably used a class analysis. I wasn't talking about workers in general. Also, I wasn't very clear. My point is that there is no point to call it anti-semitism, just call it racism, bigotry or whatever. No need for any special categories, even the category zionism and anti-zionism does this (though not conflating it with anti-semitism).

Angelus Novus
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Jan 27 2008 17:14
Khawaga wrote:
My point is that there is no point to call it anti-semitism, just call it racism, bigotry or whatever.

But anti-semitism isn't racism. They operate with entirely different codes. Just as sexism isn't the same thing as racism.

Kim Müller
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Jan 27 2008 20:20
Angelus Novus wrote:

Incidentally, the group Wildcat (Germany) pissed away a lot of its credibility in the 1990s with this sort of nonsense. When racist pogroms happened in places like Rostock-Lichtenhagen and Solingen, the Wildcat people tried to act like pogroms are simply a misconceived form of social protest.

If the Anti-Germans were able to win so much influence in the extra-parliamentary milieu, then it's at least partially due to the fact that groups like Wildcat were simply incapable of conceiving of proletarians as anything other than superheroes.

Do you have any links to these texts by Wildcat?

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Khawaga
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Jan 27 2008 20:22
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But anti-semitism isn't racism. They operate with entirely different codes. Just as sexism isn't the same thing as racism.

Please explain.

yoshomon
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Jan 27 2008 20:27
Khawaga wrote:
Quote:
So anti-semitism is just a matter of bad class analysis huh...
I suppose we can say the same about racism, fagbashing, wifebeating etc. I mean why stop at anti-semitism? Anything could be usefully flattened into this category

With reference to the Western left it is, since they've probably used a class analysis. I wasn't talking about workers in general. Also, I wasn't very clear. My point is that there is no point to call it anti-semitism, just call it racism, bigotry or whatever. No need for any special categories, even the category zionism and anti-zionism does this (though not conflating it with anti-semitism).

Unlike other racist ideologies, anti-semitism is a complete worldview and explanation of history and also a "critique" of finance capital. Historically it has expressed itself as a drive to exterminate jews (not enslave or imprison or make 'second class citizens'). I think it has a very different dynamic than say racism against chicano or black people.

mK ultra
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Jan 28 2008 04:46
yoshomon wrote:
Khawaga wrote:
Quote:
So anti-semitism is just a matter of bad class analysis huh...
I suppose we can say the same about racism, fagbashing, wifebeating etc. I mean why stop at anti-semitism? Anything could be usefully flattened into this category

With reference to the Western left it is, since they've probably used a class analysis. I wasn't talking about workers in general. Also, I wasn't very clear. My point is that there is no point to call it anti-semitism, just call it racism, bigotry or whatever. No need for any special categories, even the category zionism and anti-zionism does this (though not conflating it with anti-semitism).

Unlike other racist ideologies, anti-semitism is a complete worldview and explanation of history and also a "critique" of finance capital. Historically it has expressed itself as a drive to exterminate jews (not enslave or imprison or make 'second class citizens'). I think it has a very different dynamic than say racism against chicano or black people.

No doubt prejudice against Jews has its particular characteristics. Anti-semitism is a problematic term in many contexts because there are other speakers of semitic languages than Jews. Using anti-semitism to refer exclusively to anti-Jewish prejudice disappears Arabs and what is being done to them today by Israel, the U.S., Britain etc. Also, if you don't think anti-Black, anti-native racism etc. has its genocidal manifestations, you haven't been paying attention.

mK ultra
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Jan 28 2008 05:31
Angelus Novus wrote:
No strip of land anywhere on this planet is occupied by its "original" inhabitants. Throughout history, ethnically defined collectives have expelled other ethnically defined collectives from land they claimed for themselves.

The differences here are:
-the land theft happened in living memory
-the survivors of the colonization and their families are strugglinng for the right of return

The way you try and make harmless modern crimes is like claiming German brutality in WWII is nothing special because the Romans did it all 2000 years before.

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Jan 28 2008 07:06
Angelus Novus wrote:
If the Anti-Germans were able to win so much influence in the extra-parliamentary milieu, then it's at least partially due to the fact that groups like Wildcat were simply incapable of conceiving of proletarians as anything other than superheroes.

This is simply nonsense. Beside the fact Wildcat never conceived proletarians as "superheroes" (maybe you just don't understand them), Wildcat and other groups that still insist in classwar as the motor of history never had much impact on the radical-left milieu in Germany. The fact that anti-deutsch was in vogue for some years is far more due to the fact that being vegan stopped being too attractive. The kids are always looking for the most thrilling and upsetting ideas. Within the life-stylist social biotop that makes most of the German radical left there has a always been a competition for the most radical attitude with least impact in real life. Just as old Charly Marx said "Das gesellschaftliche Sein bestimmt das gesellschaftliche Bewusstsein". One funny thing about this is that the self-proclaimed "anti-Germans" idealistic ideology is something very German.

Kim Müller
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Jan 28 2008 07:10

I read a bit on the bikinbottom blog and some of it was a bit surprising to me, well after reading this thread not very surprised but I just wonder what kind of conclusion they draw from a quote like this, from the group sinistra:
It became clear that an emancipatorical left cannot rely on the German working-classes but must stand in opposition to the vast majority in this country; a majority who advocates racism, anti-Semitism, nationalism, a majority with a deep authoritarian disposition and a majority that did not change too much since their parents or grandparents committed the most horrible crime in mankind’s history: the mass murder of six million European Jews.

Well, if history have shown something, it would be apparent that the working class cant rely on the left for emancipation either. But if sinistra things like this, who do they expect to "do the job"? Both in more immidiant social change and revolution. Are they in favor of a coup or what?

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Jan 28 2008 07:55
Kim Müller wrote:
Well, if history have shown something, it would be apparent that the working class cant rely on the left for emancipation either. But if sinistra things like this, who do they expect to "do the job"? Both in more immidiant social change and revolution. Are they in favor of a coup or what?

Most of the are not expecting anybody "to do the job", because they are not interested in immidiant social change and revolution anymore. Some of those just like beeing some sort of watchtower or lighthouse within an ocean of anti-semitism prepared to fight til the last bullet. Others refer to the "Wertkritik" developed by Robert Kurz and the "Krisis" group. This is a hyper-deterministic theory that explains how capitalism will crush on its inherent antagonisms without the need for a social protagonist to smash it. Those guys sometimes mix up with the so-called "post-operaists" in the Negri/Hardt tradition line, promoting an pseudo-operaist theory (not practise) without clase operaia.

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Khawaga
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Jan 28 2008 08:51
Quote:
It became clear that an emancipatorical left cannot rely on the German working-classes but must stand in opposition to the vast majority in this country; a majority who advocates racism, anti-Semitism, nationalism, a majority with a deep authoritarian disposition and a majority that did not change too much since their parents or grandparents committed the most horrible crime in mankind’s history: the mass murder of six million European Jews.

That is just loony. Do they mean disposition biologically, or as the 'Geist' of Germans/Germany?

tastypudding
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Jan 28 2008 10:15

to rectify some of the historical falsifications made earlier in the thread:

zarathustra wrote:
no knowledge of what Eichmann and co. were up to. Who knows if Hitler even knew?

i know:he knew.

jesse blue wrote:
as far as i know, my grandparents knew everything one would want to know, and they liked it. they were workers and peasants. and i do not know anybody who dared tell me her/his grandparents didn't.

that, however, only shows in what kind of milieu you are living. after all, one of the big myths of post-war german society was and is that the german population didnt know anything, repeated over and over again with the same pseudo-innocent deciciveness with which bart simpson wants us to believe that he "didnt do it". in the "opa war kein nazi/ grandpa wasn´t a nazi"-study published in 2002 a chapter is dedicated to that question and it is shown how the notion that nobody knew nothing is upheld by the witness generation, despite obvious contradictions in their stories, and willingly repeated by children and grandchildren. an excerpt in english can be found here: www.memory-research.de/cms/download.php?id=2

zarathustra wrote:
Hitler never got more than 30% of the vote, and when he achieved power his popularity was lower even than that.

except in july 1932 (37.4%), november 1932 (33.1%), march 1933 (43.9%), and june 1933 (115.2%). oh wait, i made that last one up, i guess you inspired me.

zarathustra wrote:
Also, since I don't think you can quantitatively look at massacres of innocents, we should remember Dresden

ah, the great dresden swindle, always a classic. i´ve looked around the site and it seems the only text dealing with dresden available on libcom is one by the icg, which is correct in that the name of the city is actually dresden. the rest: bunch of shit. that doesn´t come as much of a surprise though if one looks at the only source that is given in the whole article which is that guardian of historical accuracy, david irving.
to correct the biggest mistake: the bombing of dresden left 25,000-40,000 dead, with the actual number probably being towards the lower end of that range. the claim made in the icg´s article, 250,000 dead, was a fabrication of the german propaganda ministry that simply added a zero to all the numbers that were reported to it. the myth was then taken up by the gdr as a propaganda tool in the cold war.
that the icg reproduces a number that irving himself had to admit to be wrong in the mid-60´s already, in an article written in the 90´s, shows how much research they do and that any "fact" in their articles should probabl be taken with a rock of salt.
i think that dresden article should be deleted or at least be given a disclaimer.

Terry wrote:
If the German public were made up of exterminationist anti-semites as you suggest they wouldn't have bothered hiding the holocaust and Himmler wouldn't have spoken of what was it a glorious chapter in our history that must never be written, ie keep quiet about this one lads.

this assumes that the nazis knew the opinions of the german population regarding a potential holocaust and then made that knowledge the most importnt factor in their decision to demand of those directly involve in the holocaust not to speak of it. logic doesn´t get much more faulty than this.
and while it is true, that the 300,000 directly involved weren´t allowed to tell anyone about the death camps, the nazis behaviour was ambiguous. hitler openly talked about extermination of the jews not only in mein kampf, but also in numerous speeches given before and during the war. there were reports by those who had passed the camps on their way from or to the front, and yes, there were newspaper reports, obviously nothing too detailed, but enough for everyone who wanted to know to know what was happening.

the stuff zarathustra posted about the "resistance" isn´t even worth commenting on.

what planet are you people on? all of the nonsense you posted could have been avoided by doing some very basic research. but it´s of course a lot easier to hallucinate yourself into some know-it-all position where reality has the honey-sweet characteristic of fitting all your ideological needs. this shit is

zarathustra wrote:
Carrr-aaaa-zzy...
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Khawaga
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Jan 28 2008 10:45
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ah, the great dresden swindle, always a classic.

So 25-40.000 dead is a swindle? You echo those Holocaust deniers/skeptics that argue that there were work camps, but only a few thousands died because of disease not intentional murder.

What's your point anyway tastypudding? That Germans are evil, or have a special capacity for evil?