anti germans

256 posts / 0 new
Last post
Angelus Novus
Offline
Joined: 27-07-06
Jan 26 2008 16:36
Tacks wrote:
Angelus Novus wrote:
You haven't answered my question. What is a "setter-colony apartheid state"?

It's in the dictionary under 'Israel' grin

Imagine that: make an anti-semitic argument, and someone dares to call you an anti-semite!

With approximately 194 nation-states in the world, this particular nation-state seems to inspire an inordinate amount of activity among western leftists. Hmm.

BTW, unless you have any actual arguments to make, I'm through indulging your hallucinatory Weltanschauung on this thread. Ciao!

Khawaga's picture
Khawaga
Offline
Joined: 7-08-06
Jan 26 2008 17:08
Quote:
With approximately 194 nation-states in the world, this particular nation-state seems to inspire an inordinate amount of activity among western leftists. Hmm.

If you bothered to read all the posts in this thread you would see that quite a few people said that Israel is just a state like every single one of them. Bourgeoisie. It is not a unique case in any sense.

Angelus Novus
Offline
Joined: 27-07-06
Jan 26 2008 17:19
Khawaga wrote:
Quote:
With approximately 194 nation-states in the world, this particular nation-state seems to inspire an inordinate amount of activity among western leftists. Hmm.

If you bothered to read all the posts in this thread you would see that quite a few people said that Israel is just a state like every single one of them. Bourgeoisie. It is not a unique case in any sense.

If you bothered to read what I wrote, I referred to "western leftists", not "people writing in this thread".

Tacks's picture
Tacks
Offline
Joined: 8-11-05
Jan 26 2008 19:54
Angelus Novus wrote:
Tacks wrote:
Angelus Novus wrote:
You haven't answered my question. What is a "setter-colony apartheid state"?

It's in the dictionary under 'Israel' grin

Imagine that: make an anti-semitic argument, and someone dares to call you an anti-semite!

With approximately 194 nation-states in the world, this particular nation-state seems to inspire an inordinate amount of activity among western leftists. Hmm.

thats because...

because....

THEY JUST HATE JEWS!!!!!!!!!111111111111111111

i see it now!

Anarchia's picture
Anarchia
Offline
Joined: 18-03-06
Jan 27 2008 01:42

Angelus - Fuck off.

I'm fucking sick of non-Jews claiming to have any sort of special knowledge of what Jews want or need in order to be safe, whether they be ultra-right Christian Zionists or anti-Deutsch.

Telling me that, because I'm Jewish, I have more in common with Ehud Olmert than with non-Jewish workers right here in New Zealand, is far closer to antisemitism than anything Tacks has said in this thread.

In solidarity (but not with you),
Asher (about as Jewish a name as you can get!)

sphinx
Offline
Joined: 25-12-05
Jan 27 2008 06:01
Asher wrote:
Angelus - Fuck off.

I'm fucking sick of non-Jews claiming to have any sort of special knowledge of what Jews want or need in order to be safe, whether they be ultra-right Christian Zionists or anti-Deutsch.

Telling me that, because I'm Jewish, I have more in common with Ehud Olmert than with non-Jewish workers right here in New Zealand, is far closer to antisemitism than anything Tacks has said in this thread.

In solidarity (but not with you),
Asher (about as Jewish a name as you can get!)

Wow, absolutely none of these assertions were made in this thread. Your hostility is without basis.

Anarchia's picture
Anarchia
Offline
Joined: 18-03-06
Jan 27 2008 07:53

That is exactly what anti-Deutsch thought says though, sphinx, even if not explicitly. In supporting Israel because it is the only place Jews can be safe, they are stating that, as I said in my last post, "I have more in common with Ehud Olmert than with non-Jewish workers right here in New Zealand".

mK ultra
Offline
Joined: 7-11-07
Jan 27 2008 08:09
Angelus Novus wrote:

Speaking for myself, I don't understand why I'm obligated to express any solidarity with people who don't share my goals.

I aim for a stateless society without commodities or money. If there are groups within Palestinian society advocating the same goals, then I would definitely be encouraged to hear about them. Otherwise, perhaps the Palestinians are entitled to my pity, or my sympathy, or whatever due to the rotten situation they're in as a result of the combined actions of their own leadership, the Arab states, and Israeli occupation.

In general I am moved to express solidarity with people strugling against oppresion. In this case Palestinians are struggling to regain land taken from their families, struggling against military occupation and struggling against a second class status in an apartheid like system. Only supporting people who agree with you politically is myopic and heartless.

Angelus Novus wrote:
BTW, what is a "setter-colony apartheid state"? Is that a long-winded, roundabout way of saying "nation-state"?

Israel has been settled by colonists in living memory. Many of the previous inhabitants of that land and their families are living in exile. The remaining nonJewish inhabitants live in an apartheid like system with different laws and priveledges for Jews and non Jews.

I am speaking about Israel and not every other oppresive country in the world because the US gives it billions and survivors of Israel are struggling against the continued theft.

Angelus Novus
Offline
Joined: 27-07-06
Jan 27 2008 08:21
Asher wrote:
That is exactly what anti-Deutsch thought says though, sphinx

Except that, as I've stated repeatedly in this thread, I'm ****NOT ANTI-GERMAN****, so I'll *THANK YOU NOT TO ATTRIBUTE THEIR POLITICAL POSITIONS TO ME*.

Angelus Novus
Offline
Joined: 27-07-06
Jan 27 2008 08:31
mK ultra wrote:
In general I am moved to express solidarity with people strugling against oppresion. In this case Palestinians are struggling to regain land taken from their families, struggling against military occupation and struggling against a second class status in an apartheid like system

I dunno, I guess if one takes the example of an Israeli whose house is destroyed by a rocket, it's just as a shitty as losing it to a military demolition. This sorting out of "good oppressed Palestinians" and "bad oppressing Israelis" seems to be an expression of the ever present leftist desire to sort out nationalists into good guys and bad guys.

Quote:
Only supporting people who agree with you politically is myopic and heartless.

So how do you propose people "support" Palestinians?

Quote:
Many of the previous inhabitants of that land and their families are living in exile.

No strip of land anywhere on this planet is occupied by its "original" inhabitants. Throughout history, ethnically defined collectives have expelled other ethnically defined collectives from land they claimed for themselves.

I think the Ruthless Criticism website gets it exactly right:

"Treated by Israel as well as by the Arab refuge countries as a foreign people, the Arab refugees also drew a wrong conclusion from their situation. Instead of rejecting the just as absurd as brutal volkish assortment – which makes the conditions of people dependent on affiliation to the correct people - and insisting on useful living conditions for themselves and the Jewish citizens, they understood their miserable situation - trained by their political leaders – as caused by the absence of their own state committed to Palestinian nationality and therefore, similarly to Israel, set as a goal the volkish organization of that area of the world for themselves - only with a reverse sign. The practical representatives of this conclusion, those in the PLO as a quasi-representative government of organized Palestinian politicians, since then pursued the project of establishing their own state of “Palestine” in the area claimed and occupied by the Israelis.

Such a program can only be asserted militarily against Israel. The bad luck of the PLO consists in the fact that their opponent is - owing to military and financial support of the USA - the hopelessly superior regional superpower Israel."

http://www.ruthlesscriticism.com/middleeast.htm

Devrim's picture
Devrim
Offline
Joined: 15-07-06
Jan 27 2008 09:20

The ironic thing about the anti-Germans is how German they actually are. They hold an ideology, which has no resonance on an international level. In fact most people looking from abroad see it as a uniquely German movement. They are the most German of all the German leftists.

Devrim

Khawaga's picture
Khawaga
Offline
Joined: 7-08-06
Jan 27 2008 09:50
Quote:
So how do you propose people "support" Palestinians?

Ever heard of Anarchists Against the Wall, Tayyush, ISM, IWPS, ICHAD etc.? They do wonderful work supporting Palestinians, and Israelis, without supporting any nationalist outfit be they in command of a state, a Vichy regime or a handful or insurgents with AKs.

Quote:
"Treated by Israel as well as by the Arab refuge countries as a foreign people, the Arab refugees also drew a wrong conclusion from their situation. Instead of rejecting the just as absurd as brutal volkish assortment – which makes the conditions of people dependent on affiliation to the correct people - and insisting on useful living conditions for themselves and the Jewish citizens, they understood their miserable situation - trained by their political leaders – as caused by the absence of their own state committed to Palestinian nationality and therefore, similarly to Israel, set as a goal the volkish organization of that area of the world for themselves - only with a reverse sign. The practical representatives of this conclusion, those in the PLO as a quasi-representative government of organized Palestinian politicians, since then pursued the project of establishing their own state of “Palestine” in the area claimed and occupied by the Israelis.

They might have got it right if, and only if, they are discussing the diaspora. After all there are plenty of Palestinians living in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, and for them the fight for sovereignty (regardless of what one might think of it) is directly linked to survival. The first intifada was a response to the inability of the PLO to come from the outside as military saviours. It was a very working class revolt, which unfortunately was recuperated by both the PLO and Hamas.

Quote:
No strip of land anywhere on this planet is occupied by its "original" inhabitants. Throughout history, ethnically defined collectives have expelled other ethnically defined collectives from land they claimed for themselves.

This is very true. But this is not a justification for the colonization and occupation of anyone.

Anarchia's picture
Anarchia
Offline
Joined: 18-03-06
Jan 27 2008 09:51

Angelus: You called labelling Israel as a "setter-colony apartheid state" as antisemitic. This is entirely consistent with anti-Deutsch politics.

Devrim: Definately. Anti-Deutsch are every bit as German as those they decry, it just comes out on a different angle.

Angelus Novus
Offline
Joined: 27-07-06
Jan 27 2008 10:40
Asher wrote:
Angelus: You called labelling Israel as a "setter-colony apartheid state" as antisemitic.

No, I asked people to supply a definiton for "settler-colony apartheid state". Your inability to accurately represent what I wrote suggests severe reading comprehension problems, or perhaps some mild form of mental retardation.

Quote:
This is entirely consistent with anti-Deutsch politics.

Which Anti-Germans? ISF/Bahamas? Konkret? ex-BgR/Phase 2? Some of the Jungle World editors?

Oh wait, I forgot, you have no clue about the above groups, and therefore are simply talking out of your ass when you suggest that something is "consistent" with Anti-German politics.

Quote:
Anti-Deutsch are every bit as German as those they decry, it just comes out on a different angle.

This isn't an argument, it's merely moralism. Are you an indignant teenager?

Angelus Novus
Offline
Joined: 27-07-06
Jan 27 2008 10:47
Khawaga wrote:
Ever heard of Anarchists Against the Wall, Tayyush, ISM, IWPS, ICHAD etc.? They do wonderful work supporting Palestinians, and Israelis, without supporting any nationalist outfit be they in command of a state, a Vichy regime or a handful or insurgents with AKs.

Some of the names sound familiar. ISM is International Solidarity Movement right? This is the group that recruits people to stand in front of Israeli tanks and things like that? I'd be curious to know what the specific activity of these groups consists of.

What is the benchmark for success in terms of the work these groups do?

Quote:
he first intifada was a response to the inability of the PLO to come from the outside as military saviours. It was a very working class revolt, which unfortunately was recuperated by both the PLO and Hamas.

"Recuperation" is such a passive term. It makes it sound as if Fatah and Hamas are supernatural forces which just somehow "recuperated" something, rather than actual political entities which people have *chosen* to support.

Quote:
This is very true. But this is not a justification for the colonization and occupation of anyone.

There's always a "justification" for colonization and occupation. It's just that such justifications mean very little to people on the receiving end.

It's likewise the case for the other ethnically-defined national collective in this dispute. The desperate and grievous situation of people living in the occupied territories is unlikely to move someone who's kid has just been blown up on a bus as the result of a suicide bombing.

Angelus Novus
Offline
Joined: 27-07-06
Jan 27 2008 10:54
Devrim wrote:
The ironic thing about the anti-Germans is how German they actually are. They hold an ideology, which has no resonance on an international level. In fact most people looking from abroad see it as a uniquely German movement. They are the most German of all the German leftists.

Devrim

Gosh, you seem like you know so much about the Anti-German tendencies! Tell me, what did you make of that dust-up between Hermann Gremliza and Matthias Küntzel a few years back? Also, did you think Udo Wolter's critique of that open letter Elfie Müller and Klaus Holz sent to Jungle World back in 2002 was fair and accurate? Why or why not?

Devrim's picture
Devrim
Offline
Joined: 15-07-06
Jan 27 2008 11:26
Angelus Novus wrote:
Gosh, you seem like you know so much about the Anti-German tendencies!

No, I know almost nothing about them, nor did I claim to, nor am I particularly interested. To me it seems, as I said, to be a very German phenomenon with little international resonance.

Angelus Novus wrote:
With approximately 194 nation-states in the world, this particular nation-state seems to inspire an inordinate amount of activity among western leftists. Hmm.

Including the anti-Germans too actually. It comes as no surprise to see that there are different leftists backing different national states, or national liberation struggles. It is part of the stock trade of leftism. The mainstream left supports Palestinian nationalism, and the Anti-Germans support Israeli nationalism. I am not particularly interested in the theoretical gymnastics they go through to end up supporting a different nationalist group.

Angelus Novus wrote:
Tell me, what did you make of that dust-up between Hermann Gremliza and Matthias Küntzel a few years back? Also, did you think Udo Wolter's critique of that open letter Elfie Müller and Klaus Holz sent to Jungle World back in 2002 was fair and accurate? Why or why not?

I have never heard about any of these people, and your whole attitude to this is in my opinion very elitist. You are basically saying that because people in other countries aren't aware of all the details, they shouldn't discuss it.

Devrim

Angelus Novus
Offline
Joined: 27-07-06
Jan 27 2008 12:07
revol68 wrote:
why would he need to know such details to point out that anti deutsch is a hilariously german centric set of ideas with no resonance with the rest of the world? Afterall I don't need to know the difference between various steam powered boats to prcolaim them essentially obsolete to modern long distance transport.

No, but you would have to know what a steam-powered boat is.

Anarchia's picture
Anarchia
Offline
Joined: 18-03-06
Jan 27 2008 12:13
Angelus Novus wrote:
Tacks wrote:
Angelus Novus wrote:
You haven't answered my question. What is a "setter-colony apartheid state"?

It's in the dictionary under 'Israel' grin

Imagine that: make an anti-semitic argument, and someone dares to call you an anti-semite!

Thats you labelling Tack's calling Israel a "settler-colony apartheid state" an antisemitic argument, right there. Perhaps it's you who has the comprehension problem?

revol68 wrote:
why would he need to know such details to point out that anti deutsch is a hilariously german centric set of ideas with no resonance with the rest of the world? Afterall I don't need to know the difference between various steam powered boats to prcolaim them essentially obsolete to modern long distance transport.

revol answered your "point" sufficiently there, I won't bother saying anything else on that.

Angelus Novus wrote:
is unlikely to move someone who's kid has just been blown up on a bus as the result of a suicide bombing.

Tell that to the mothers of children murdered in suicide bombings that I talked to when I was last in Israel in 2004. I have a feeling they might disagree with you though, considering they (there was about 10 of them in the conversation) were at a demonstration calling for immediate withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank. Oh, and they were yelling at some Israeli Labour Party people almost as much as some anarchists I saw later in the same demo, for similar reasons (although, unlike what happened to one anarchist, no Labour Party hack dared to try to punch any of the mothers).

Angelus Novus
Offline
Joined: 27-07-06
Jan 27 2008 12:17
revol68 wrote:
I mean do you actually disagree with Devrims point

When the point being made is phrased in terms of "Anti-Germans are..." or "Anti-Germanism is..." then my agreement or disagreement is predicated upon clarification concerning which Anti-Germans, which tendencies of Anti-Germanism.

What is even more irritating is that whenever I point out the double-standards and partisan nationalism of the left, then someone counters with "But the Anti-Germans are also..." or "The Anti-Germans are just as guilty of...", as if I have any interest in defending my political opponents.*

* (but at least I know why they are my opponents)

Devrim's picture
Devrim
Offline
Joined: 15-07-06
Jan 27 2008 12:20
Angelus Novus wrote:
whenever I point out the double-standards and partisan nationalism of the left,

There is no 'partisan nationalism' coming from me.
Devrim

Angelus Novus
Offline
Joined: 27-07-06
Jan 27 2008 12:22
Asher wrote:

Thats you labelling Tack's calling Israel a "settler-colony apartheid state" an antisemitic argument, right there.

Tack wasn't "calling Israel a settler-colony apartheid state", Tack was claiming that "setter-colony apartheid state" is a synonym for Israel. Do you have difficulties grasping the difference? In absence of providing an *argument* as to what distinguishes Israel from other nation-states, he merely asserts some metaphysical status that distinguishes Israel from all other nation-states. Arguments concerning the particularity of Jews is classic anti-semitism.

Quote:
Tell that to the mothers of children murdered in suicide bombings that I talked to when I was last in Israel in 2004. I have a feeling they might disagree with you though, considering they (there was about 10 of them in the conversation) were at a demonstration calling for immediate withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank. Oh, and they were yelling at some Israeli Labour Party people almost as much as some anarchists I saw later in the same demo, for similar reasons (although, unlike what happened to one anarchist, no Labour Party hack dared to try to punch any of the mothers).

Was there an actual argument buried within this personal anecdote?

Anarchia's picture
Anarchia
Offline
Joined: 18-03-06
Jan 27 2008 12:22
Devrim wrote:
There is no 'partisan nationalism' coming from me.

Nor me.

Khawaga's picture
Khawaga
Offline
Joined: 7-08-06
Jan 27 2008 12:24
Quote:
Tack was claiming that "setter-colony apartheid state" is a synonym for Israel

He was trying to be funny...

Angelus Novus
Offline
Joined: 27-07-06
Jan 27 2008 12:26
Asher wrote:
Devrim wrote:
There is no 'partisan nationalism' coming from me.

Nor me.

I'm sure you believe that, but when you start doling out portions of "solidarity" to one side in an ethnic conflict simply because that side happens to have the bad luck of not having a powerful army and high-tech weaponry, then you are in fact engaging in partisan activity for a particular nationalism.

Anarchia's picture
Anarchia
Offline
Joined: 18-03-06
Jan 27 2008 12:27
Angelus Novus wrote:
Tack wasn't "calling Israel a settler-colony apartheid state", Tack was claiming that "setter-colony apartheid state" is a synonym for Israel. Do you have difficulties grasping the difference? In absence of providing an *argument* as to what distinguishes Israel from other nation-states, he merely asserts some metaphysical status that distinguishes Israel from all other nation-states.

Tacks was joking, you fucking moron, as evidenced by the green grinning face accompanying his post.

And as for:

Angelus Novus wrote:
Aguments concerning the particularity of Jews is classic anti-semitism.

No argument from me there. Anti-Deutsch thought however, is based on arguments of the particularity of antisemitism as opposed to other prejudices (as supposedly the only inherently extinctive prejudice, etc), which to my mind fits the argument in your quote (that I agreed with) like a glove.

Angelus Novus wrote:
Was there an actual argument buried within this personal anecdote?

It was a comment on your statement that:

Angelus Novus wrote:
The desperate and grievous situation of people living in the occupied territories is unlikely to move someone who's kid has just been blown up on a bus as the result of a suicide bombing.
Angelus Novus
Offline
Joined: 27-07-06
Jan 27 2008 12:31
Asher wrote:

Tacks was joking, you fucking moron, as evidenced by the green grinning face accompanying his post.

Ah. Joke as substitute for argument. Hm.

Quote:
No argument from me there. Anti-Deutsch thought however, is based on arguments of the particularity of antisemitism as opposed to other prejudices

So take it up with an Anti-German. Why am I obligated to defend a political perspective I don't agree with?

Anarchia's picture
Anarchia
Offline
Joined: 18-03-06
Jan 27 2008 12:34
Angelus Novus wrote:
I'm sure you believe that, but when you start doling out portions of "solidarity" to one side in an ethnic conflict simply because that side happens to have the bad luck of not having a powerful army and high-tech weaponry, then you are in fact engaging in partisan activity for a particular nationalism.

Eh? Who's doing that?

I extend my solidarity to Palestinian proletarians and Israeli proletarians. I certainly don't extend it to members of the Palestinian bourgeoisie (unlike Trots and some liberals and others) nor to members of the Israeli bourgeoisie (unlike anti-Deutsch, Christian Zionists and others).

Hell, to quote something I wrote for the magazine of a local Palestinian solidarity group during the most recent Israeli invasion of Lebanon last year arguing against the predominant leftist support of Hezbollah (that certainly caused some arguments!):

Asher wrote:
Surely, as revolutionaries, we should be expressing our solidarity with the working class of Lebanon, Palestine and Israel, not with their reactionary oppressors. We should be supporting the work of Lebanese, Palestinian and Israeli leftists, anarchists and all those working for that old cliche, peace with justice and self-determination.
Anarchia's picture
Anarchia
Offline
Joined: 18-03-06
Jan 27 2008 12:42
revol68 wrote:
Is the only solidarity work going on in Palestine that of cheerleading Fatah or Hamas?

In this, anti-Deutsch share a similar tactic (and I'm not equating them here) to the Israeli state (and also many of the large US Jewish institutions) - they are extremely good at convincing their target audiences that there is no such thing as autonomous resistance by Palestinians, and that every piece of resistance is driven by Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc. And when they can't do this, they deny the resistance even exists, as happens to much of the "day to day" resistance, such as bypassing roadblocks to find work in Israel or to pick olives in closed military zones, and much of the co-operation between Israelis and Palestinians, such as the fantastic work of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (www.icahd.org).

During the year and a bit I spent in Israel, I witnessed or heard about massive resistance against the occupation that never makes the evening news, never gets talked about - these are the sorts of things that working class Palestinians do to survive on a day to day level, but also to build co-operation with working class Israelis (both of Jewish and Palestinian descent).

Angelus Novus
Offline
Joined: 27-07-06
Jan 27 2008 12:46
revol68 wrote:
And if working class palestinians fight back against road blocks, harrasment, house demolition and the like and people express solidarity it becomes immediately equatable to support for a particular nationalism?

Maybe we just have different ideas as to what "solidarity" means. "Solidarity" is something I extend to people who share my (anti-)political goals.

If I decide to give 5 euros to a homeless guy, I don't do it out of "solidarity", but out of kindness, pity, sadness, guilt, empathy, or a thousand other sentiments.

If someone wants me to cotribute some blankets and canned food to the occupied territories, I'm game. I won't pretend it has anything to do with struggling for communism.