anti germans

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Jan 19 2008 12:46
Angelus Novus wrote:
(...) It's a peculiar arrogance of English-speakers that they view themselves as qualified to pontificate about political tendencies and developments throughout the world without spending sufficient time living in those countries or speaking the languages (...).

Maybe. But I guess a better reason for a moratorium on this thread would be that the subject (i.e. the Anti-Germans) has nothing or little to do with anything libcom.org is dedicated to. They are neither libertarian communists, nor do they have any relations to working class or social struggles. They are just a temporary product within the decline of certain sectors making the German "left".

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Jan 19 2008 14:12

10 points to robot

- 50 to Jesse Blue; madame, you suck.

Angelus Novus
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Jan 19 2008 15:32
robot wrote:
They are neither libertarian communists

What is a "libertarian" communist?

I am a communist, meaning that I advocate the abolition of the commodity-form, money, and the state-form.

What does the adjective "libertarian" contribute to that basic understanding?

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They are just a temporary product within the decline of certain sectors making the German "left".

Who's "they"? ISF/Bahamas? Gremliza's Konkret (including Trampert/Ebermann)? The ex-BgR/Phase 2 milieu?

Angelus Novus
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Jan 19 2008 15:39
mk wrote:
I think they apologists for American and Jewish imperialism

BTW, how could a comment like this go uncommented by the entire board? Or are anti-semitic tropes about "Jewish imperialism" standard fare for "libertarian" communists?

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Jan 19 2008 16:09

I'm so proud that racism against jews has its own name. Your not a racist; you are an *anti - semite*.

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Jan 19 2008 16:11

i think it makes it clear that racism against jewish people is HUGE problem, not to be muddled with lesser ones.

[/fucking with stupid thread]

Angelus Novus
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Jan 19 2008 16:15
Tacks wrote:
I'm so proud that racism against jews has its own name. Your not a racist; you are an *anti - semite*.

Anti-semite is the label willingly adopted by anti-Jewish political parties in Wilhelmine Germany. If you bothered to read history, you'd know that.

Oh wait, reading history is for wanky intellectual toffs, not manly true proletarian individuals like yourself.

sphinx
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Jan 19 2008 17:38
robot wrote:

Maybe. But I guess a better reason for a moratorium on this thread would be that the subject (i.e. the Anti-Germans) has nothing or little to do with anything libcom.org is dedicated to. They are neither libertarian communists, nor do they have any relations to working class or social struggles. They are just a temporary product within the decline of certain sectors making the German "left".

Yeah because there's no chance that they're working class themselves. They're reading too much theory for that.

Angelus Novus
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Jan 19 2008 18:36
sphinx wrote:
Yeah because there's no chance that they're working class themselves. They're reading too much theory for that.

Well said. The workerist posturing by some here is irritating. I come from a proletarian background, both parents trade union activists. It never occured to me that it was something to be proud of. Certainly no one in my family wanted that sort of life for me. They wanted us to be doctors or lawyers and escape all that shit.

Loren Goldner once stated that all three volumes of Capital are a "phenomenology of the self-abolition of the working class". Unfortunately I think his point is lost on toy-town radicals for whom proletarian affectations are some weird way of constructing a subcultural identity.

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Jan 19 2008 20:02
Angelus Novus wrote:
Tacks wrote:
I'm so proud that racism against jews has its own name. Your not a racist; you are an *anti - semite*.

Anti-semite is the label willingly adopted by anti-Jewish political parties in Wilhelmine Germany. If you bothered to read history, you'd know that.

Fuck, that changes EVERYTHING

jog on grin

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Jan 19 2008 20:06
Angelus Novus wrote:
sphinx wrote:
Yeah because there's no chance that they're working class themselves. They're reading too much theory for that.

Well said. The workerist posturing by some here is irritating. I come from a proletarian background, both parents trade union activists. It never occured to me that it was something to be proud of. Certainly no one in my family wanted that sort of life for me. They wanted us to be doctors or lawyers and escape all that shit.

Are you having a laugh?

Calling you on this bullshit has nothing to do with a distaste for theory in general, it is to do with inward looking bullshit useless twat theory. What fuck are you on, 'workerist posturing'? Where has anyone used their class pride as a detractor from your daft guilt trip?

Using class analysis is not an example of being a class bore droning about not having much money as kid.

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Jan 19 2008 20:07

but yes, 20 points for identifying yourself as proletarian, and a bonus 5 points for the smokescreen of pretending you hated it when people did that grin

mK ultra
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Jan 20 2008 01:39
Angelus Novus wrote:

That's symptomatic for most discussions about the Anti-Germans within the British and American left, which is reducible to, "dude, I totally heard there were like Antifas in Germany who carry Israeli flags on demos". In other words, your "knowledge" of the Anti-Germans consists of rumors, your "refutation" of their ideology is with a fantasy opponent that only exists in your head.

It's not a rumor or a fantasy dude. Such anti-Germans exist. Do you deny it?

Angelus Novus wrote:
I propose a moratorium on discussion concerning that Anti-Germans by anyone who:

- can't read German at a sufficient level of proficiency to follow the debates

- doesn't know what the difference is between the ISF/Bahamas, the BgR Leipzig/Phase 2, Rote Ruhr Uni, Cafe Critique Vienna, the ADK Berlin, or the jour fixe initiative berlin (the latter no longer even Anti-German)
...

Way to stifle discussion. Perhaps with your in depth knowledge of anti-German intricacies you could make some relevant points that we could all learn from, rather than come off like a condescending prick.

I guess I see this whole anti-German thing as so tragic, not just because it's so full of shit, but because the German autonomist and radical left had been an inspiration to myself and many US anarchists. In the 90s when a Berlin squatter/info-shopper told me that they weren't joining the mass movement to oppose social spending cutbacks because "the Germans have it too good as it is" I thought it was a youthful folly that would soon pass. Now I see the anti-mass politics that had been prominent in some quarters taken to it's ugly conclusion.

On a side note, I AM worried by the increasing acceptance of anti-Jewish racism by parts of the left. Several years ago there was a protest against the "Celebrate Israel Day" here in Boston. It was attended not just by the pro-Palestinian groups (whom I support) but by some Nazi boneheads. There were people in the left who actually opposed going against the fascists that day because they saw Israel as the bigger threat. There is also too much tolerance of loony, blame everything on Israel folks who claim the Darfur tragedy is a Zionist hoax and that the U.S. has been fooled into supporting Israel against its own interests. So while I am decidedly anti-anti-German. I share some of the concern about anti-Jewish racism in the left.

Angelus Novus
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Jan 20 2008 06:16
Tacks wrote:
Calling you on this bullshit has nothing[...] your daft guilt trip?

What guilt trip? Are your reading comprehension skills so bad that you missed the part where I pointed out (for only the 10,000th time) that I'm not an Anti-German?

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Jan 20 2008 06:29
Angelus Novus wrote:
What is a "libertarian" communist?

Maybe you might find it helpful checking the search engine for "libertarian communism". Just it case you misread libcom with "library of components", "liberty and compost" or whatsoever.

Angelus Novus wrote:
I am a communist, meaning that I advocate the abolition of the commodity-form, money, and the state-form.

This is brave but it means nothing. Half of the Anti-Germans and quite some German radical-leftist will tell you the same. Everyone claims to be a communist, some even claim to be some sort of libertarian communists. But they have a bloodless and sterile definition of communism derivated from nothing but abstract theory and without any consequences for their life. All those guys (and some girls) will tell you, that the only force who can smash capitalism is dead or –as most Anti-Germans would argue– that every class struggle or social struggle must (at least in Germany) be necessarily anti-semitic and therefor is of evil. Thus that "communism" of most German radical leftist is a communism without a class that can abolish itsself and therefor it is nothing more than a label that serves as an excuse for not taking part in class and social struggles. This is one of the reasons why the German radical-left is little more than boring and why the few exceptions from the rule like the FAU, Wildcat and some others try to avoid being labeled as "radical lefists".

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Jan 20 2008 06:38
mK ultra wrote:
It's not a rumor or a fantasy dude. Such anti-Germans exist. Do you deny it?

No of course I don't deny it. I'm just questioning the usefulness of a discussion on such a superficial level. The descriptor "Anti-German", like "anarchist", describes a whole range of groups, journals, and individuals, some of which are bitterly opposed to one another.

The now dissolved BgR Leipzig, for example, whose former members continue to put out the journal Phase 2, never jumped on the pro-war/pro-Bush bandwagon, and generally consider the waving of Israeli flags on demos to be ill-considered.

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Way to stifle discussion.

Oh please. Nobody is censoring anyone or prohibiting people from talking out of their asses about a phenomenon they know little about. I'm just calling people on it when they speculate.

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Perhaps with your in depth knowledge of anti-German intricacies you could make some relevant points that we could all learn from, rather than come off like a condescending prick.

I don't think the hardcore of the Anti-Germans make any points that haven't made made previously by others. On Anti-American prejudice, the Revolutionary Cells put out a paper called "Beethoven and McDonalds". On Anti-Semitism, I like Moishe Postone's "Anti-Semitism and National Socialism". And on Anti-Zionism as a form of Anti-Semitism, again the Revolutionary Cells with the paper "Gerd Albertus is dead". Also on Anti-Zionism, the paper by the Autonome l.u.p.u.s. Gruppe, "Die verlorene Unschuld".

Those are all key texts for the discussions of themes that the Anti-Germans have attempted to monopolize for themselves, but the texts are better than anything the Antis have put out.

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I guess I see this whole anti-German thing as so tragic, not just because it's so full of shit

Again, what's full of shit? ISF/Bahamas? I'd agree there, though ca ira is a great publishing house. Konkret under Gremliza's auspices? I think it's a really good communist monthly, and I'm glad they stopped publishing assholes like Horst Pankow. Phase 2? I agree with Robert Kurz that they are too close to the event horizon of the Antifa movement, but they do publish some great stuff, including interviews with Michael Heinrich and some excellent articles on Queer Theory by Georg Klauda. Jungle World? That paper will publish everything from Sergio Bologna to Bahamas assholes to French Trotskyists. One of their regular economics reporters is a heavy in the IWW Germany.

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but because the German autonomist and radical left had been an inspiration to myself and many US anarchists.

Yes, I have the feeling that US anarchists indulge in a lot of myth-making and fantasy about the German Autonomen. This is not helped by the existence of mediocre books like Katsiaficas.

The sad truth is, the Autonomen don't exist in any meaningful sense anymore. It was a social movement which was bound to the conditions of reproduction that are only at hand in a Fordist capitalism with a generous welfare state and a realistic option of dropping out of the routine existence of the time. With the collapse of the Fordist social compromise and the neo-liberalization of social life, that movement has disappeared.

There are still a very few surviving Infoshops and occupied houses, but they really are the last surviving relicts of a past era. I think perhaps you use the term "Autonomist" as a general term for the anti-parliamentary left, but as a rule it means something more specific than that, referring to a very specific period in history which is long gone.

One of the better groups on the left here, felS http://fels.nadir.org, are a post-autonomist formation who came out of that movement and had a developed critique ("the autonomen don't have problems, they *are* the problem"). Unfortunately, those texts don't seem to be on their website, or I just can't find them.

Quote:
So while I am decidedly anti-anti-German. I share some of the concern about anti-Jewish racism in the left.

The comment here about "Jewish imperialism" which got a free pass from the rest of the board is a testament to how the left really hasn't worked out its attitude towards Anti-Semitism (which I would argue is not the same thing as racism, since it works with different prejudices and different codes, but that's another discussion).

Angelus Novus
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Jan 20 2008 06:52

P.S.

mK ultra wrote:
In the 90s when a Berlin squatter/info-shopper told me that they weren't joining the mass movement to oppose social spending cutbacks because "the Germans have it too good as it is" I thought it was a youthful folly that would soon pass.

This sort of thing irritated me as well during the Anti-Hartz IV protests.

Not because I give a shit about "mass movements" or "mass politics", but because Hartv IV was a vicious piece of anti-social legislation that potentially threatened everyone. If people can't get of their asses to fight for their own material interests, then they have no business blathering about communism.

On this much we can agree.

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Jan 20 2008 17:27
Angelus Novus wrote:
P.S.
mK ultra wrote:
In the 90s when a Berlin squatter/info-shopper told me that they weren't joining the mass movement to oppose social spending cutbacks because "the Germans have it too good as it is" I thought it was a youthful folly that would soon pass.

This sort of thing irritated me as well during the Anti-Hartz IV protests.

Not because I give a shit about "mass movements" or "mass politics", but because Hartv IV was a vicious piece of anti-social legislation that potentially threatened everyone. If people can't get of their asses to fight for their own material interests, then they have no business blathering about communism.

On this much we can agree.

True. Furthermore, the abandonment of working class social struggles by parts of the left in Germany concedes this ground to the right, which is more than happy to pick up the slack. In this way, such exclusionary attitudes, anti-German or not, facilitate the growth of that which they citique, namely reactionary attitudes within the 'German' working class. I see the same phenomenon here in the Boston area with anarchists moving into the city from surrounding small towns. They are rightly critical of the racism in their home communities, but rather than use this critique as a motivation to organize there, they flee to the big city where they can be as radical as they want. These small towns are now the home base for the anti-immigrant movement in Massachusetts.

zarathustra
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Jan 22 2008 17:31

Carrr-aaaa-zzy...

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Jan 23 2008 02:42
Angelus Novus wrote:
One of the better groups on the left here, felS http://fels.nadir.org, are a post-autonomist formation who came out of that movement and had a developed critique ("the autonomen don't have problems, they *are* the problem"). Unfortunately, those texts don't seem to be on their website, or I just can't find them.

I think this might be what you're looking for:

http://www.nadir.org/nadir/initiativ/fels/archiv/selbst/english.html

yoshomon
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Jan 24 2008 17:16

A quote from this interview - http://cafecritique.priv.at/interviewIN.html - for anyone interested in diving deeper into these ideas and critiquing on more than a surface level.

Quote:
In the context of anti-German criticism, "German" should always be understood in the sense of criticism of ideology. It is not a matter of an hereditary national character, but a political-economic constellation which favors extermination, where others in the West pursue certain goals with the help of certain means. So, this is not about a special mentality, but a specific form of capitalist socialisation, which then indeed does create "typical German" social characters. In Germany, a special form of relationship between state, bourgeoisie and society has eventually led to the shoah. And this relationship still exists. As Clemens Nachtmann has once pointed out so accurately, this constellation can be described as "German", because it was first established in Germany where it was able to display its bestial potential. But this constellation is not a phenomenon that can be limited to a specific historical period or a specific territory, thus neither to the German state nor the time of National Socialism. It results from a socialisation that is committed to the realization imperatives of the capital and the ruling imperatives of the state. Therefore, "German" can also be generalized.
mK ultra
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Jan 25 2008 05:43
yoshomon wrote:
A quote from this interview - http://cafecritique.priv.at/interviewIN.html - for anyone interested in diving deeper into these ideas and critiquing on more than a surface level.

Thanks for the link. The interview provides some background for English speakers.
Here are some interesting quotes I found in the text:

Stephan Grigat wrote:
The discussions within the German left during the gulf war in 1991 were important for many people - also for me, as I still lived in Berlin at that time. While people in Israel had to hide in shelters wearing gas masks and feared coming under fire by Iraqi Scud-rockets equipped with German poison gas every hour, the German left celebrated its anti-war rallies

German weapons are used for murder everywhere, not just when they were sold to Iraq, but also, the nuclear missile capable submarines that Germany gave Israel. Do the anti-Deutsch celebrate this weapons transfer?

Stephan Grigat wrote:
It is not only compatible, but partisanship for Israel is a compelling consequence of communist criticism....
Solidarity with Israel, in any case, should be a matter of course without the need to be explained in great detail.
...
In this context, Zionism is not the right answer to anti-Semitism, but for the time being, it is the only answer possible.
...
As long as there are people, who feel committed to Marx's imperative, but don't succeed in implementing it in any way, we try to follow Adorno's imperative by providing the physical integrity of Jews with force.

It doesn't surprise me that there are some pro-imperialist loons out there calling themselves communists. What does surprise me is that they have cajoled and hoodwinked the majority of the German speaking left into not expressing solidarity with struggling Palestinians and to declare as Verboten any questioning of the right of the settler-colony apartheid state of Israel to exist.

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Jan 25 2008 13:14

this is just insane.

purely nuts.

Angelus Novus
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Jan 26 2008 14:16
mK ultra wrote:
It doesn't surprise me that there are some pro-imperialist loons out there calling themselves communists. What does surprise me is that they have cajoled and hoodwinked the majority of the German speaking left into not expressing solidarity with struggling Palestinians and to declare as Verboten any questioning of the right of the settler-colony apartheid state of Israel to exist.

Speaking for myself, I don't understand why I'm obligated to express any solidarity with people who don't share my goals.

I aim for a stateless society without commodities or money. If there are groups within Palestinian society advocating the same goals, then I would definitely be encouraged to hear about them. Otherwise, perhaps the Palestinians are entitled to my pity, or my sympathy, or whatever due to the rotten situation they're in as a result of the combined actions of their own leadership, the Arab states, and Israeli occupation.

BTW, what is a "setter-colony apartheid state"? Is that a long-winded, roundabout way of saying "nation-state"?

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Jan 26 2008 14:54

not really, no.

Angelus Novus
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Jan 26 2008 14:55
Tacks wrote:
not really, no.

So what does it mean? I assume there must be some substance behind the usage. Some substance that would indicate that it's not simply meant to mean a nation-state which is particularly eeeeevil.

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Jan 26 2008 15:29

all nation states are essentially evil. Well done.

In the case of israel, there are ongoing activities - colonial ones - which kick people out of their homes to house settlers. We can talk about this, and act if we want to, in the here and now.

Quite tame compared to the golden age of empire, but that is not my problem or yours; so Zionists have chosen to do this sort of thing about 100 years out of date, more people have spoken out about it than would have done back in 1850, are these people speaking out racists, no.

No they aren't.

Are you some kind of muppet obsessed with one stupid element of left thought which you have nurtured into the most ridiculous abberation of politics we have seen yet?

Yes you are.

Angelus Novus
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Jan 26 2008 15:58

You haven't answered my question. What is a "setter-colony apartheid state"?

Your last post indicates you don't really have an answer, which is about as much as I suspected, but I held you for one of the more intelligent sort of anti-semite, the sort that usually has at least a superficially convincing justification for his ressentiments.

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Jan 26 2008 16:06

ha ha ha grin

"the anti semite"

He's fucking everywhere mate! Its a conspiricaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

You are the fucking anti semite if anyone pal. You conflate an entire nation of people with one race, and that entire race with the choices of that nations ruling class. Now that my son, that, is racist. Would you call a critic of Mugabe's zimbabwe 'anti-black'?

Maybe you would, your pretty fucking nuts evidently.

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Jan 26 2008 16:10
Angelus Novus wrote:
You haven't answered my question. What is a "setter-colony apartheid state"?

It's in the dictionary under 'Israel' grin

sorry, i must apologise for my racism against the jews, it must come from my israeli jewish anarchist comrades. They are apparently 'self hating jews' in the eyes of right wing zionists (and also 5 people and a magasine in Berlin).