10 Points about anarchism in Britain

I\'ll give you 24 hrs before the liberals lynch you

The anarchist ''movement'' as a whole hasn't been relevant to the working class in Britain since about 1945, and since then the small number of class struggle anarchists have been completely overun by individualists and lifestylers so its hardly surprising that on a lot of points you're correct. Persoanlly I don't see much point in trying to ressurect anarchism which has largely been going no-where for several decades, i'd rather concentrate on winning material gains and just promoting self-organisation broadly. But if you want to try and resuctate the corpse of anarchism, then good luck to you.

However, I do have to admit that I felt 2 was a little bit too hysterical, and while i get what your saying, demanding that polish people ''stay at home to serve their countries'' is a bit wank, i mean if i was offered a job working for three times what i was earning i'd take it, for someone who claims to understand ''working class conservatism'', demanding that people accept lower paid jobs is a bit silly.

Now personally i don't see immigration as some big actvist issue we all need to take some PC stance on, and like you i'm not in favour of all that ''open borders'' type balls, but i don't think we should ignore immigration either, what we should be doing is pointing out that most of those claiming to be opposing immigration ie the conservative/liberal parties, are simply represnting companies and financial institutions whose interest lies in keeping immgrant wages low and business taxation low, and tying the two together.

Immigration benefits the ruling class, it costs less for the ruling class to hire immigrants as nurses, than for them to train up nurses from among our own population. The state, representing these financial interests is in favour of high immigration, and always will be as long as capitalism isn't in complete crisis (at which point immigration becomes neccesary)

No tory/labour government would ever actually cut immigration completely, their anti-immigrant stance is simply to reduce the wages of immigrant workers in certain industries, keep benefits low and divide the working class, much liek their continued ramblings about multi-culturalism, which seesm to be simply a way of dividing the working class.

And most importantly i couldn't give a shit if their not the most ''desperate people'', i mean if all you're interested in is ''desperate people'' try the homeless and other lumpen individuals. Also why are you talking about these people in the abstract? last time i checked they're our workmates. In fact the last place i worked there were about 3 south africans who saved up all year and went home on their holiday and spent loads of money on a big party and a shopping spree (something you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about for some odd reason), but seriously why shouldn't they do that? If somehow i could get a high earning job like say something in engineering, then i'd take the money and spend it, i wouldn't listen to some deranged lefty saying how i should take a low paid job out of solidairty with some imagined idea he has about ''tha workers loike'' that he read in some pointless anarchist leaflet, i mean no offence to you here but seriously balls to that.

ps as for the family stuff well for me family issues are often highly personal and can only be dealt with on a case by case basis, and running in there as politicos trying to create some universal 'theory'' on how it should be dealt with seems unlikely to help anyone.

Where do you live? What exactly should people be overjoyed about or proud about with regards the country/area they live in? I think everyone should take an interest in the hsitory of certain countries or regions, but persoanlly i cant think of many events in local history that i could be proud of or even feel any sort of attachment to, i mean i was born in '83 and that was quite an event for the area...not much has happened since though

Dunno about that, I'd say that outside the major urban centres most people don't tend to move about much. Certainly not round my way (where it's very much the cliche of 'if you ain't lived here more than 20 years you ain't to be trusted' despite new builds all over the shop).

yeah maaan, life is just like a constant living hell every second until we will all be set free by the miracle of communism1!!111!!!!

what a load of idealist bollocks

Take a look at english politics in the last 30, or even the last 100 years, how the fuck have you figured that localism is a bad thing?

Lastly in terms of a future socialist society and all that balls, how the fuck do you think any form of workers council is going to emerge without some degree of localism then? Are you completely mad? How else do you think trade union branches and strike commitees are going to organise without an interfering layer of bureacracy unless its with some degree of localism?

perhaps revol is writing regarding his local area, i know for a fact that i wouldnt want to preserve any of the 'community spirit' round my area as it consists largely of yuppees, the ultra conservative and twitching curtains.

If Revol is talking in reference to our local community he has a point. The area of south Belfast in which we live has the most transient and temporary population in Belfast. Around 90% is private rented accomodation, usually on yearly contracts due to the high student numbers so there is no degree of stable local community.

I don't feel any attachment to the area I live in now but Belfast in general I do really like - I'm pretty sure I'll live here the rest of my life and I've no desire to live elsewhere. Been to other cities all over and Belfast really isn't as bad as you make out, maybe you're on about that shit-hole Larne

aha thought i recognised the style

nope, i agree with most of what you've said including the area, one of the most active members of resident's assoc is an american who is obsessed with local history - i certainly feel at home in the greenlanes area despite only having been here around two years

well you got the bakuninist bit right

i think falseflag's points are interesting and mostly right - ontop of that i think one mistake of the left and anarchists is not to look at what issues violent struggle capable of bringing about social change has actually sprung from, some are imeadiately progressive yes, but others are progressive but don't appear to be at first because of the liberal and social democratic filter we use to look at things

for instance despite some of the language used by people on both sides the campigns to remove pedophiles from working class communities ae progressive, the campaigns to oppose the building of detention camps in small towns is progressive - the left and anarchism have failed to get involved in those campaigns and influence them, and have instead abondened them to the reactionary and even fascist right, indeed criminally in gosport in hampshire the left marched against the local community in support of the government dispersal centre, which is wrong on several levels

I've been briefly thinking about your stuff about Immigration,

1 Most asylum seekers are from countries with appaling human rights records, and are therefore refugees

2I'll admit losing your doctors, dentists etc is a problem for any third world country, but they've probably been forced out. As it's the intellectuals who most often get singled out for reppression. And have the money to move. And here, most of them are reduced to working illegaly as they're not allowed to work above board. And many are now being forced to live on the streets.

3 What's wrong with coming to a new country to seek a better life? Until they have a more equitable system at home they're continuously going to do so.

4. Britain is responsible for a lot of the dictatorships dotted around the world that abuse human rights. So if we just focus on here, then we'll be forgetting about a lot of people. Getting rid of the system here would probably mean a chance for a more equitable system elsewhere. But the Labour government of the 40's-50's introduced a few measures which benefited people here, while still murdering people everywhere else. The world may be run by gangsters, but they're mostly British/American gangsters, and the life that refugees get here is better than most other places, or would be, if they weren't being locked up.

5. Admittedly, the government does let people in who they shouldn't, like failed dictators. But, the present asylum policies mostly hit normal refugees. The government would still let in failed dictators if there was a total ban on incomers. An open borders policy would benefit mostly ordinary people. Surely there's just a tad of racism in the present government's policies?

Hm, I'm not sure I have all the info, but hey

While I think you make some good points, I'd take issue with acouple of things:

Anarchism should be entirely compatible with a feeling of joy or pride at an area's (however big or small) past or traditions (We're not robots to derive emotion from only personal achievements).

I'd say that surely depends on where you live. If it's a reactionary backwater it's difficult to feel much affection. Then again there is no reason why local pride is a bad thing - but it's conditional for me.

10 Animals are important only for humans.

Farming and experimentation should be judged on the basis of their worth and use for humans not on the basis of compassion for animals.

I disagree. Surely it's the belief that the environment and animals are there as a resource for man that have got us into the situation we face now. Capitalists have been acting with that attitude for along time. Humanity is feeling the rebound now.

Hi

What situation do you mean? I like the current situation better than the previous one.

Love

Chris

I concur: (although everything should be

judged on a case-by -case basis) I find animal experimentation

to be as sick as racism and just as pointless.

Presumably if you're a Council Commie you'd have to be proud

of your locality,otherwise you wouldn't think it feasable?

Also, the whole asylum/immigration thing is just an excuse keep our wages down for the benefit of a minority (sorry if that sounded

anti-immigrant, I happen to be,more-or-less,in favour of an open

border policy as long as asylum seekers aren't all squeezed into

poor areas thus creating friction)

Hi

I find animal experimentation to be enjoyable, the same cannot be said about racism which is not "fun".

Love

Chris

Hi

I'd just like to apologise for my antagonistic tone. I hope none of you kind hearted cow lovers were offended, please forgive me.

This is a variation on the “altruism” style discussions that raise their heads every so often, shall we pick this up on a different thread?

Lots of love and sincere apologies

Chris

I was just refering to the state of the environment generally.

No offence was taken.

Presumably if you're a Council Commie you'd have to be proud

of your locality,otherwise you wouldn't think it feasable?

I'd make the distinction really between what your locality is and what it could become. You might not like the present state it is in but you would see it's potential and want to change it for the better.

Also, the whole asylum/immigration thing is just an excuse keep our wages down for the benefit of a minority (sorry if that sounded

anti-immigrant, I happen to be,more-or-less,in favour of an open

border policy as long as asylum seekers aren't all squeezed into

poor areas thus creating friction)

I agree. Capitalism exploits immigrants at the same time as using the added competition to pressurise the working class and drive wages and conditions down. The movement of people is not in itself a bad thing but the concentration of yet more people into already struggling areas does cause friction. That's the fault of the ruling class in the countries where immigrants have come from and the ruling class here, not the immigrants themselves.

Immigration might not benefit the working classes, but it benefits the immigrants, and should we deny people better lives because they don't meet our standards of poverty, even when they're likely to be shot?