Was Bukowski an anarchist?

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AnrBjotk's picture
AnrBjotk
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Sep 8 2010 16:59
Was Bukowski an anarchist?

Discuss...

Boris Badenov
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Sep 8 2010 17:10

Err, I don't know. Maybe point out why you think he was (if indeed you think that)? Otherwise there's nothing to discuss.

no1
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Sep 8 2010 17:18

not sure you got the meaning of theory

CRUD's picture
CRUD
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Sep 8 2010 21:15

He hated being a wage slave. Wrote quite extensively about the depressing reality of it all. Post Office was a good read. I'd say, if he were concerned with such things he'd have potential to be an anarchist (in the political sense).

If you're going to (simply) define anarchism as not submitting to hierarchy I'd say he was. ...then most homeless/jobless people would be "anarchists".

Jason Cortez
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Sep 8 2010 21:35

he liked bagels so of course he....

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CRUD
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Sep 8 2010 21:42

Aren't all anarchists alcoholics? I mean....thats why I drink every other day.

Jason Cortez
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Sep 8 2010 21:51

but that is just because your a women with a certain sorrow. He clearly isn't an anarchist, show where once he even mentions raping children.

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Sep 8 2010 21:52
revol68 wrote:
from what I read of him he was a good writer and captures the frustration, alienation and nihilism of proletarian conditions but in terms of being an anarchist, nah, his views on women are pretty fucked up (which he would admit himself as part of the 'i'm just your average fucked up joe schmuck telling it like it is' angle).

I think he's a good writer but there's something a bit too macho about him for my liking, he most definitely gives off the whiff of the rugged american individualism.

Dedicated to you:

The Genius Of The Crowd
Charles Bukowski

there is enough treachery, hatred violence absurdity in the average
human being to supply any given army on any given day

and the best at murder are those who preach against it
and the best at hate are those who preach love
and the best at war finally are those who preach peace

those who preach god, need god
those who preach peace do not have peace
those who preach peace do not have love

beware the preachers
beware the knowers
beware those who are always reading books
beware those who either detest poverty
or are proud of it
beware those quick to praise
for they need praise in return
beware those who are quick to censor
they are afraid of what they do not know
beware those who seek constant crowds for
they are nothing alone
beware the average man the average woman
beware their love, their love is average
seeks average

but there is genius in their hatred
there is enough genius in their hatred to kill you
to kill anybody
not wanting solitude
not understanding solitude
they will attempt to destroy anything
that differs from their own
not being able to create art
they will not understand art
they will consider their failure as creators
only as a failure of the world
not being able to love fully
they will believe your love incomplete
and then they will hate you
and their hatred will be perfect

like a shining diamond
like a knife
like a mountain
like a tiger
like hemlock

their finest art

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Sep 8 2010 21:56
Jason Cortez wrote:
but that is just because your a women with a certain sorrow. He clearly isn't an anarchist, show where once he even mentions raping children.

Isnt there that one crazy fuck here in America who advocated child rape? Ya, the Hakim Bey thread. Where in the US does he live? In CA?

Jason Cortez
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Sep 8 2010 21:57

Bey or SRT?

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CRUD
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Sep 8 2010 22:01
Jason Cortez wrote:
Bey or SRT?

Bey

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thegonzokid
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Sep 8 2010 22:49

He was a mysoginist prick. Wrote some great poetry though. Not so mad on the prose.

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Sep 9 2010 10:18

i love bukowski, he was indeed fucked up but a great poet and his books are shit hot as well. but was he an anarchist i would say not. i dont really think he ever discusses his politics to much anyway.

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Sep 9 2010 10:36

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Bukovsky ?

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Sep 9 2010 14:26

In his book Ham on Rye he describes his flirtation with fascism while attending Los Angeles City College. He even went to some meeting in nearby Glendale. One is given the impression that he did it to shock his lefty classmates and professors. It's still lame and was part of his typical asshole behavior.

Hank was too cynical and apolitical to be anything but a cranky, anti-work, misogynist poet (and fiction and non-fiction writer -- he wrote a column in the LA Free Press).

Like many great artists some of his works are fantastic, but in "real" life he was a creep.

As a kid growing up in the same East Hollywood neighborhood, I saw him set up once for a poetry reading at the neighborhood bookshop (Chatterton's, which has been replace by Skylight Books in the same space). They pushed back the shelves and put a plywood riser for him to read from -- with just a folding chair and a bucket of ice filled with cheap canned beer. And he was this burly guy with a huge ugly pock-marked face. He certainly wasn't a dandy and looked like any other down-and-out white working class alcoholic from that neighborhood.

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Sep 9 2010 15:47
revol68 wrote:
from what I read of him he was a good writer and captures the frustration, alienation and nihilism of proletarian conditions but in terms of being an anarchist, nah, his views on women are pretty fucked up (which he would admit himself as part of the 'i'm just your average fucked up joe schmuck telling it like it is' angle).

I think he's a good writer but there's something a bit too macho about him for my liking, he most definitely gives off the whiff of the rugged american individualism.

http://www.amazon.com/Against-American-Dream-Charles-Bukowski/dp/0876859597/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1284047141&sr=1-1

This book, worth a read btw, clearly puts him in the Bob Black "workers of the world...relax"-category.

As for his views on women (god, why does this ALWAYS happen, once again I will be the only one defending him) he wasn't a mysogonist. His wife clearly states this. He had a fucked-up childhood, rejected by women, and simply "made up for lost time" later on. And in his books the man is always the biggest loser.

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Sep 9 2010 16:19
revol68 wrote:
admin: image removed

My god, I've touched a woman in that place too...does that mean I'm a mysgonist?

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AnrBjotk
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Sep 9 2010 16:50

You know I don't really feel he WAS a mysgonist, yes he insisted on acting as the "tough man", but if you read his biographies you'll find he was actually a very sensitive and emotional man. Simly describing women by their physical attributes is more of a synecdoche than misogyny, isnt it? He never spoke of women being lesse than men in any sense.

Even so, does misogni exclude one from being an anarchirst? Or arent we being a little PC and confused. Though I am not of this conviction, I see no problem of wanting to dismantle the state and create a free society of peers if you are a racist or misogynist...Wrong? If so, how? smile

Boris Badenov
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Sep 9 2010 17:58
Thor wrote:
I see no problem of wanting to dismantle the state and create a free society of peers if you are a racist or misogynist

Not to be outdone by rival libcom mentals, Thor has upped the ante.

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Sep 9 2010 18:02
mateofthebloke wrote:
Thor wrote:
I see no problem of wanting to dismantle the state and create a free society of peers if you are a racist or misogynist

Not to be outdone by rival libcom mentals, Thor has upped the ante.

Sorry mate, I'm straight, I don't take it up the ante tongue

Boris Badenov
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Sep 9 2010 18:21

Seriously though how fucked in the head do you have to be to think racists and woman-haters can meaningfully and productively contribute to a radical egalitarian movement and the "creation of a free society of peers"? Do you not see the big fuck off contradiction? It's pretty huge.

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Sep 9 2010 19:14
mateofthebloke wrote:
Seriously though how fucked in the head do you have to be to think racists and woman-haters can meaningfully and productively contribute to a radical egalitarian movement and the "creation of a free society of peers"? Do you not see the big fuck off contradiction? It's pretty huge.

My own attraction to anarchism is that NO ONE, no matter what, shall be placed below or above another. WHO has the right to say what is right or wrong?

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Sep 9 2010 19:29
Tor SR Thidesen wrote:
As for his views on women (god, why does this ALWAYS happen, once again I will be the only one defending him) he wasn't a mysogonist. His wife clearly states this. He had a fucked-up childhood, rejected by women, and simply "made up for lost time" later on. And in his books the man is always the biggest loser.

Bullshit. In one of the documentaries about him, you can see him kicking Linda, throwing his wine glass at her, and verbally abusing her. He repeatedly calls her a "whore" and makes preposterous claims that all women are whores. I can't think of a better definition of misogynist. He was a total pig towards women.

If you read any biography of him, there are countless examples of him abusing women, nearly always while drunk, both physically and emotionally.

And his fascism and anti-Semitism has been documented as well. I personally think he did it to get a rise out of people, but it's still disgusting. He should be condemned for all of this; none of it should be defended.

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Sep 10 2010 00:04

It never ceases to amaze me just how far people will bend to absolve the "literati" of any responsibility for depravity. Whether it be the loathful promotions of Hakim Bey, as exposed in the other threads, or Bukowski's disgusting behavior highlighted by Hiernonymous posts, or Roman Polansky's rape--it seems that as long as one is "artistic" or "poetic" it's all okay.

It's really pathetic.

I don't give a damn if Leni Riefenstahl or D.W. Griffith were some of the greatest filmmakers in history (two others who never seem to have an end of defenders), they were both assholes and should rightfully be viciously condemned by those working towards a classless, liberatory society.

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Sep 10 2010 17:38
revol68 wrote:
I actually can't believe I even bothered typed that response, you're obviously some idiot art muppet.

Stick to titillating art tards at shitty hipster galleries, I could even get you an exhibit in Belfast.

I'm glad you did. And as for the exhibit, please do!

Hieronymous wrote:
Tor SR Thidesen wrote:
As for his views on women (god, why does this ALWAYS happen, once again I will be the only one defending him) he wasn't a mysogonist. His wife clearly states this. He had a fucked-up childhood, rejected by women, and simply "made up for lost time" later on. And in his books the man is always the biggest loser.

Bullshit. In one of the documentaries about him, you can see him kicking Linda, throwing his wine glass at her, and verbally abusing her. He repeatedly calls her a "whore" and makes preposterous claims that all women are whores. I can't think of a better definition of misogynist. He was a total pig towards women.

If you read any biography of him, there are countless examples of him abusing women, nearly always while drunk, both physically and emotionally.

And his fascism and anti-Semitism has been documented as well. I personally think he did it to get a rise out of people, but it's still disgusting. He should be condemned for all of this; none of it should be defended.

So, if I kick a man for being an asshole I'm just a man, if I hit a woman for being an asshole, I'm a woman-hater?? Because women are delicate little flowers? Like shit they are.

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Sep 10 2010 18:03

if you hit a woman, however tough or delicate she may be, I'd hope you'd get beat down for it.

Boris Badenov
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Sep 10 2010 18:05
Tor SR Thidesen wrote:
Because women are delicate little flowers? Like shit they are.

So tell me about your mother Tor.

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Sep 10 2010 22:10
Tor SR Thidesen wrote:
So, if I kick a man for being an asshole I'm just a man, if I hit a woman for being an asshole, I'm a woman-hater?? Because women are delicate little flowers? Like shit they are.

If you go around kicking people for being "assholes," your macho thug posturing doesn't even deserve a response.

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Sep 10 2010 22:13
Tor SR Thidesen wrote:
So, if I kick a man for being an asshole I'm just a man, if I hit a woman for being an asshole, I'm a woman-hater??

This is a fair question I think. I don't know the answer to it.

Jason Cortez
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Sep 10 2010 23:17

No but beating up your wife on a regular basis and going on long drunken diatribes about how ALL women are whores etc etc etc probably suggests some sort of women hating tendencies don't yer think?

Boris Badenov
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Sep 10 2010 23:25
Hughes wrote:
Tor SR Thidesen wrote:
So, if I kick a man for being an asshole I'm just a man, if I hit a woman for being an asshole, I'm a woman-hater??

This is a fair question I think. I don't know the answer to it.

Are you serious? Jesus fuck. Most women do not have the same body weight and physical strength as most men, ergo it is not a fair fucking fight, you dipshits.