Uber feminist or deadbeat mooch?

114 posts / 0 new
Last post
DekuScrub3's picture
DekuScrub3
Offline
Joined: 24-01-10
May 30 2015 18:52
Uber feminist or deadbeat mooch?

I mentioned this in the "Revolutionary Day Jobs" thread, but it's something that's been on my mind quite a bit lately, so I'd like to get some broader input, if that's OK.

My fiancée (a woman) has a really good job -- at least for now, next year might be different -- and is paying the bills, while I (a man) am unemployed and do most of the cooking, cleaning and care for the animals at home. Does this make me an uber feminist or a deadbeat mooch? Or something else?

Pennoid's picture
Pennoid
Offline
Joined: 18-02-12
May 30 2015 19:15

Both! A Deadbeat AND a MOOCH!

xxzxcuzxme
Offline
Joined: 22-05-15
Jun 9 2015 17:34

.

Pennoid's picture
Pennoid
Offline
Joined: 18-02-12
May 30 2015 19:27

Is yer name about Crystal Castles?

DekuScrub3's picture
DekuScrub3
Offline
Joined: 24-01-10
May 30 2015 19:28

Agh, I'm serious! This has been worrying me a lot lately!

DekuScrub3's picture
DekuScrub3
Offline
Joined: 24-01-10
May 30 2015 19:30

I mean again, I walk her dog throughout the day, cook dinner every night and do the chores she leaves me for the day on the list. These typically involve the dishes, or laundry, or vacuuming or whatever. I mean I could definitely do more, but it's not like I'm watching the Big Lebowski all day.

xxzxcuzxme
Offline
Joined: 22-05-15
Jun 9 2015 17:35

.

Pennoid's picture
Pennoid
Offline
Joined: 18-02-12
May 30 2015 19:41

Ehh, don't beat yourself up over it. Right now, our labor-power is purchased for a wage. But the activity to which it is directed is essentially limitless. It is capitalism that reduces us to selling our time for money (a quantity) with which we then must satisfy the rest of our needs. Work with her to help her based on what you both want.

YER TALKING TO THE WRONG PEOPLE BRUH!

Pennoid's picture
Pennoid
Offline
Joined: 18-02-12
May 30 2015 19:42

@xxzxcuzxxme Righteous!

DekuScrub3's picture
DekuScrub3
Offline
Joined: 24-01-10
May 30 2015 19:48

Basically, she gets a salary that allows us to live comfortably that is about three times as big as anything I'd be able to make on the job market. Plus I don't know if it's just a symptom of mental illness (of which I have a history) but I just don't like going out/interacting with people as much. I don't know. I beat myself up a lot about it.

Edit: but again, next year her job situation might change, in which case I will definitely have to go back to retail or whatever. Sigh.

Noah Fence's picture
Noah Fence
Offline
Joined: 18-12-12
May 30 2015 19:49

Deku, I just don't get your dilemma. Do you feel your masculinity is in question? If so that's a psychology issue, not a practical one. Is it that you feel you simply contribute less? Personally, I would say an hour spent preparing a good meal is far more valuable than an hour spent applying wax to some rich guy's oak paneling(an example from my own life). I guess sometimes it's hard to throw off the shackles of the bourgeois value system imposed on us but really, if your girlfriend is happy with the situation and you play your role well then what's the problem?

DekuScrub3's picture
DekuScrub3
Offline
Joined: 24-01-10
May 30 2015 19:58
Webby wrote:
Deku, I just don't get your dilemma. Do you feel your masculinity is in question? If so that's a psychology issue, not a practical one. Is it that you feel you simply contribute less? Personally, I would say an hour spent preparing a good meal is far more valuable than an hour spent applying wax to some rich guy's oak paneling(an example from my own life). I guess sometimes it's hard to throw off the shackles of the bourgeois value system imposed on us but really, if your girlfriend is happy with the situation and you play your role well then what's the problem?

I just don't want to feel like a bum....and I often feel like people see me that way when interacting with her mom or my parents....or anyone really. Maybe I'm just projecting. For the most part my fiancée is happy with it I think. Like anything in relationships it's always being improved and adjusted in order to find the right balance.

Edit: if anything I think she might want me to get a job because she thinks the community and structure might do me good.

Lucror
Offline
Joined: 20-05-15
May 30 2015 21:21
DekuScrub3 wrote:
I just don't want to feel like a bum....and I often feel like people see me that way when interacting with her mom or my parents....or anyone really. Maybe I'm just projecting. For the most part my fiancée is happy with it I think. Like anything in relationships it's always being improved and adjusted in order to find the right balance.

Edit: if anything I think she might want me to get a job because she thinks the community and structure might do me good.

I think the question really is: what do you want to do with your life?

Do you want to continue with your current house-keeping role? do you want to go back to retail? do you want a career that is more satisfying/challenging/exciting? do you want to work from home?

It sounds like you are in a financial position that would allow you to re-train or start a new profession. If that's the case then chances are there is some sort of government subsidy/correspondence course just waiting for you.

Whether people see you as a deadbeat mooch or an uber feminist isn't important. The most important thing is how you see/feel about yourself.

Edit: times like these call for a bit of Alan Watts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEgZACpXP3U

DekuScrub3's picture
DekuScrub3
Offline
Joined: 24-01-10
May 30 2015 21:24

Thanks for the kind words, Lucror. smile and good points. Stuff to think on for sure smile

Chilli Sauce's picture
Chilli Sauce
Offline
Joined: 5-10-07
May 31 2015 04:37

Mate, you're living the dream. My goal in life is to be a househusband, so enjoy it for the both of us!

DekuScrub3's picture
DekuScrub3
Offline
Joined: 24-01-10
May 31 2015 06:30

smile

jef costello's picture
jef costello
Offline
Joined: 9-02-06
May 31 2015 09:04

If you are contributing fairly to the household then that's fine. Salaries are their value of us, not our actual value so we take them as cynically as we can.

boozemonarchy's picture
boozemonarchy
Offline
Joined: 28-12-06
May 31 2015 13:18

Webby already broke this one open, but it is worth mentioning again.

You say you are worrying a lot about this. Chances are, your anxiety about this is being spurred from without rather than within. The completely irrational gendered division of labor in patriarchy, and its associated social pressures, seems to be the culprit. Bullshit constructions of masculinity are swirling about, turning the world more shit by the second while making most unable to fully level with the contribution and value of domestic labor.

I can commiserate 100% with my current situation. My partner also brings home the bacon while I earn peanuts. I have yet to be able to ignore those social pressures. Best I can manage is being aware when my shit attitude is actually a response to them and promptly reminding myself that it is the patriarchy that is a piece of shit, not me.

Anyways, time for hug?

-------

Feels worth it to comment (though many others have said this before me) about this in light of the several MRA types that have blessed libcom recently:

What is misunderstood by the MRA about feminism ( the long arc of it), is that it has always offered men a methodology that would allow them to understand the ways in which patriarchy is a terrible arrangement for everyone, including men. It is always important to emphasize that this isn't the same as an argument for equivalency (which can't be backed up and is shit), rather, it is an honest assessment of the situation at hand. In short, everyone is worse off than men under capitalist patriarchy, but everyone is worse off.

DekuScrub3's picture
DekuScrub3
Offline
Joined: 24-01-10
May 31 2015 14:17

Thanks BM. smile Nice post

DekuScrub3's picture
DekuScrub3
Offline
Joined: 24-01-10
May 31 2015 14:30

Sidenote, fwiw, I don't think the term MRA is really helpful. First of all, does anyone actually self-apply it? It seems more just like a term of abuse. Further, I feel like it's used increasingly disingeously. Anyone who suggests that feminism might have some excesses (see: Laura Kipnis, etc) is accused of being an MRA.

Joseph Kay's picture
Joseph Kay
Offline
Joined: 14-03-06
May 31 2015 14:42
DekuScrub3 wrote:
Sidenote, fwiw, I don't think the term MRA is really helpful. First of all, does anyone actually self-apply it? It seems more just like a term of abuse. Further, I feel like it's used increasingly disingeously. Anyone who suggests that feminism might have some excesses (see: Laura Kipnis, etc) is accused of being an MRA.

Not that self-identification should be the be-all and end-all (the EDL don't call themselves fash, Ferguson PD don't call themselves racists...), but Paul Elam's racket1 (one of the main MRA organisations) self-defines as "The Men’s Human Rights Movement". If we accept "Men" are humans, the 'Human' is redundant, leaving Men's Rights Movement. On your second point, all nouns can be misapplied. That's not an argument against nouns.

On your main question, Boozemon's talking sense.

DekuScrub3's picture
DekuScrub3
Offline
Joined: 24-01-10
May 31 2015 14:53
Joseph Kay wrote:
On your second point, all nouns can be misapplied. That's not an argument against nouns.

No, but I think if a term is consistently misapplied, it's fair to say a particular noun isn't that useful, which is what I was suggesting.

Fleur
Offline
Joined: 21-02-12
May 31 2015 14:53
Quote:
I don't think the term MRA is really helpful. First of all, does anyone actually self-apply it? It seems more just like a term of abuse.

Yes it is real and yes it is self-applied by people whose main political agenda is attacking feminists. They are the fuckwits who coined the expression Social Justice Warriors, which is used mostly to abuse feminists, anti-racists, etc. Anyone whose political engagement includes the internet will most likely be aware of the knuckle-dragging self-identifying MRAs of reddit and 4 chan and AVFM. And yes, I use it as a term of abuse.

boozemonarchy's picture
boozemonarchy
Offline
Joined: 28-12-06
Jun 1 2015 11:35
DekuScrub3 wrote:
Anyone who suggests that feminism might have some excesses (see: Laura Kipnis, etc) is accused of being an MRA.

I can't say I've witnessed this phenom. Feminism very much has a healthy tradition of rigorous self-critique which has in kind produced different strands, none of which are understood as having anything to do with MRA.

DekuScrub3's picture
DekuScrub3
Offline
Joined: 24-01-10
May 31 2015 20:32

Check out some of the links I posted in the Exiting the Vampire Castle thread. Most recently, the feminist Laura Kipnis has been sued under Title IX for AN ESSAY she wrote. To borrow a phrase from film critic Devin Feraci, that's just McCarthyism dressed up in leftist clothes. Perhaps that sounds hysterical on my part, but whatever.

I mean, I have no doubt that if I were to publicly say that I thought there were certain segments of the feminist movement which is obsessed with victimhood and censoring the way people think and talk, I would be denounced as an MRA, rape apologist, what have you. And yet a Jezebel writer said just that in commenting on the Kipnis case. (Again, check the Castle thread) I'm just sick of this atmosphere of malicious ad hominem.

jef costello's picture
jef costello
Offline
Joined: 9-02-06
May 31 2015 20:57

'I have no doubt'
Just because you feel that way doesn't make it so. I'm not sure I've seen any of this atmosphere, aside from hypotheticals like yours, which obviously begs the question of who is obsessed with victimhood.
Uncountable women are categorically oppressed due to their gender every day, and that is a fact that anyone who has spoken to basically any person, aside from someone who feels straight white males are being picked on, is pretty certain of.

DekuScrub3's picture
DekuScrub3
Offline
Joined: 24-01-10
May 31 2015 21:01

Read the links in the Exiting the Vampire Castle thread....and if you don't think there is a segment of the feminist movement that is obsessed with victimhood and policing people....I don't know. I guess I must be an MRA. Because it's like we're not looking at the same reality.

Fleur
Offline
Joined: 21-02-12
May 31 2015 21:47
Quote:
feminist movement which is obsessed with victimhood

You do know that actually is one of the talking points of the MRA movement? It's very crass coding for being upset about women actually talking about rape, gendered violence etc. It seems to completely annoy some people, who obliviously ignore every other aspect of feminist organizing but obsess on feminists talking about sexual violence. Which they don't like, for some reason or other.

DekuScrub3's picture
DekuScrub3
Offline
Joined: 24-01-10
May 31 2015 21:54
Fleur wrote:
Quote:
feminist movement which is obsessed with victimhood

You do know that actually is one of the talking points of the MRA movement? It's very crass coding for being upset about women actually talking about rape, gendered violence etc. It seems to completely annoy some people, who obliviously ignore every other aspect of feminist organizing but obsess on feminists talking about sexual violence. Which they don't like, for some reason or other.

Again, throw the meaningless labels like MRA around all you want. But check out some of the links in the Castle thread. I think it's a noticeable trend with a segment of the movement, which even Jezebel writers are wringing their hands at.

radicalgraffiti
Offline
Joined: 4-11-07
May 31 2015 22:01

it seems thats the only interest you have in feminism

petey
Offline
Joined: 13-10-05
May 31 2015 22:11
DekuScrub3 wrote:
Basically, she gets a salary that allows us to live comfortably that is about three times as big as anything I'd be able to make on the job market.

so what's your secret, heh-heh