Trotskyists - how would you deal with national defence?

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Stalinski
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Jun 17 2014 06:25
Trotskyists - how would you deal with national defence?

Do Trotskyists believe in nuclear weapons, and a large arms industry?

If not, how will they defend their revolution?

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Entdinglichung
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Jun 17 2014 08:20

a few Trotskyists would even give you access to nuclear weapons to defend your counter-revolution

but to my knowledge, the majority of Trotskyists are unconditionally opposed to all WMD

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Gepetto
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Jun 17 2014 08:45

Posadists believe that nuclear war would bring about socialism wink

BTW- do Spartacists suport nuking workers for their own good or do they just believe that a "degenerated workers' state" should have them to intimidate imperialist powers?

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Entdinglichung
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Jun 17 2014 08:47

not anymore, I think ... but they are still mad, from the 1st May statement 2009 of the Posadists in Britain:

Quote:
“The speech of Ahmadinejad (of Iran) at the ‘UN Conference against Racism’ was the thought of humanity, for once to be heard, on the question of Israel. 13 delegates marched off because, unable to deny what had been said, they fled the place. For capitalism, this is not an economic crisis but a first class political and social one! Finished the old style colonies. The masses stand up in Venezuela, Nepal, Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine. They created an Ahmadinejad. Finished the time where three cats reigned supreme over international encounters.”

Stalinski
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Jun 17 2014 08:48
Entdinglichung wrote:
a few Trotskyists would even give you access to nuclear weapons to defend your counter-revolution

but to my knowledge, the majority of Trotskyists are unconditionally opposed to all WMD

So how will they defend themselves against the Imperialists then?

Defence through Political Correctness perhaps?

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Entdinglichung
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Jun 17 2014 08:51
Stalinski wrote:
Entdinglichung wrote:
a few Trotskyists would even give you access to nuclear weapons to defend your counter-revolution

but to my knowledge, the majority of Trotskyists are unconditionally opposed to all WMD

So how will they defend themselves against the Imperialists then?

Defence through Political Correctness perhaps?

no, by playing your statements live in TV and radio for 24 hours, that will reveal that they are only paper tigers with nuclear teeths

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Steven.
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Jun 17 2014 09:12

Like someone said on another thread, if you want to know what Trotskyists think you should go to a Trotskyist website.

If you want to talk about how great nuclear weapons are, and what great things they have achieved for the proletariat thus far, this is not the website for you either…

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Uncreative
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Jun 17 2014 09:25
Sparts wrote:
Finished the time where three cats reigned supreme over international encounters.”

Ah, the good old days...

Stalinski
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Jun 17 2014 10:17
Steven. wrote:
If you want to talk about how great nuclear weapons are, and what great things they have achieved for the proletariat thus far, this is not the website for you either…

so you must be some kind of a Marxist then to be using that term - of which variety, or is it just the general one, like Democratic Socialist - well that is ok, but still needs some kind of defence system in the modern world

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Gepetto
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Jun 17 2014 10:20

Tankies gonna tank

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Entdinglichung
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Jun 17 2014 10:21

tank

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Gepetto
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Jun 17 2014 10:31

T-34 + nukes = true communism

Come on, it's just basic dialectics

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Steven.
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Jun 17 2014 10:54
Stalinski wrote:
Steven. wrote:
If you want to talk about how great nuclear weapons are, and what great things they have achieved for the proletariat thus far, this is not the website for you either…

so you must be some kind of a Marxist then to be using that term - of which variety, or is it just the general one, like Democratic Socialist - well that is ok, but still needs some kind of defence system in the modern world

we are influenced by a variety of working class political theories, from anarchist communism and anarcho-syndicalism to Council communism and left communism. But we focus on taking what is useful from a variety of traditions and applicable to current circumstances. More information in our introductory guide: https://libcom.org/library/libcom-introductory-guide

"Democratic socialist" is normally a term used for social democrats, so that's not us.

jolasmo
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Jun 17 2014 11:40
Stalinski wrote:
Entdinglichung wrote:
a few Trotskyists would even give you access to nuclear weapons to defend your counter-revolution

but to my knowledge, the majority of Trotskyists are unconditionally opposed to all WMD

So how will they defend themselves against the Imperialists then?

Defence through Political Correctness perhaps?

Honestly the trots and their not wanting to wipe out humanity through nuclear war. It's political correctness gone mad!

~J.

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Gepetto
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Jun 17 2014 13:20
jolasmo wrote:
Stalinski wrote:
Entdinglichung wrote:
a few Trotskyists would even give you access to nuclear weapons to defend your counter-revolution

but to my knowledge, the majority of Trotskyists are unconditionally opposed to all WMD

So how will they defend themselves against the Imperialists then?

Defence through Political Correctness perhaps?

Honestly the trots and their not wanting to wipe out humanity through nuclear war. It's political correctness gone mad!

~J.

Isn't communism "the real movement abolishing present state of things"? What's easier and quicker way to abolish present state of things other than destroying fucking everything?

It would seem that Stalinism is insurrectionary anarchism for disillusioned grown-ups grin

Entdinglichung wrote:
but they are still mad, from the 1st May statement 2009 of the Posadists in Britain:

This is just generic leftist madness here I think. I mean, lefties still believe there is socialist revolution happening in Eastern Ukraine. Or that there's potential for it there. While it's not even an open secret that it is just some Eurasianist nutjobs gone wild.

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Gepetto
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Jun 17 2014 13:37

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwlNPhn64TA
What awaits Trotskyites, ultra-lefts and anarchists. True communists will be in atomic bunkers network that would make Comrade Hoxha proud.

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Entdinglichung
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Jun 17 2014 14:16
Gepetto wrote:

BTW- do Spartacists suport nuking workers for their own good or do they just believe that a "degenerated workers' state" should have them to intimidate imperialist powers?

there was also once a poster advocating also the right to use nukes but their general line is, that the Soviet Union's WMD have prevented any use of nuclear weapons after 1945 (that's at least what a leading Spart in Germany told me after confronting her on the issue)

Stalinski
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Jun 18 2014 01:55

seems fair enough, becaue if it weren't for the SU we'd all be talking American now!

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Noah Fence
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Jun 18 2014 11:24

I once broke into a nuclear observation shelter. Curiously enough there were no Trots hanging around in there but there were enough steel and brass analog meters to put a hundred steampunks into raptures and 2 of the best quality duffle coats it is possible to imagine.
Oh yes, there was also lots of secret information as to the location of various observation and government shelters which were promptly photo copied and handed out on a Saturday afternoon in a suburban high street. Precisely what the point of risking my neck like this was I have no idea but it was quite a buzz making with the bolt croppers in the middle of the night and dishing out secret information did wonders for my 16 year old ego!

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Juan Conatz
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Jun 18 2014 11:34
Stalinski wrote:
seems fair enough, becaue if it weren't for the SU we'd all be talking American now!

10/10

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Reddebrek
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Jun 18 2014 15:49
Stalinski wrote:
Do Trotskyists believe in nuclear weapons, and a large arms industry?

If not, how will they defend their revolution?

Stalinski
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Jun 19 2014 04:10

lol, good post - SU would have been crushed were it not for it's mighty hand - the same way Trotsky was crushed by Stalin.

Spassmaschine
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Jun 19 2014 06:16
Stalinski wrote:
lol, good post - SU would have been crushed were it not for it's mighty hand - the same way Trotsky was crushed by Stalin.

The SU would have been icepicked by a Stalinist?

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Auld-bod
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Jun 19 2014 07:37

Spassmashine #23
The SU would have been icepicked by a Stalinist?

To be fair, the Stalinists did their very best by murdering millions of SU citizens!

Stalinski
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Jun 19 2014 08:33

sure, the US was the icepick, and they would have done to Joe what he did to Leon.

Fairly obvious that, and they (the US) wouldn't even play ball when Krushchev tried to be nice.

So yes, the US are the real assassins here.

Ablokeimet
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Jun 19 2014 11:14
Stalinski wrote:
sure, the US was the icepick, and they would have done to Joe what he did to Leon.

Fairly obvious that, and they (the US) wouldn't even play ball when Krushchev tried to be nice.

So yes, the US are the real assassins here.

While it is true that, being the most powerful imperialist power, the US is the most evil State in the world, that doesn't exonerate Uncle Joe. He subjugated neighbouring States and imposed ferocious dictatorships on them. He put down workers' revolution wherever he could. And he conducted a chauvinistic Russification program (Nicholas II would have been proud of him) inside the countries of the USSR. Finally, there is the little matter of the Ukrainian Famine of 1932-33. I could go on, but you get the idea.

Joseph Stalin was a bloody butcher whose crimes against the working class have so discredited the name of communism that, at the moment, the majority of workers around the world want no part of it. Stalinism has made workers' revolution immensely more difficult than it would otherwise be.

S. Artesian
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Jun 19 2014 23:59

Don't feed the troll.

Having said that, let me know point out how much I love the question: "Do Trotskyists believe in nuclear weapons, and a large arms industry?"

Like, do Trotskyists believe in god, the power of prayer, and the Amazin' Mets of 1969, 1973, 1986, 2000?

Sure they do. They even have a special prayer:

Now I lay me down to sleep
I pray the nuclear weapons and large arms industry my soul to keep.

If I am turned to ash before I wake
Future generations will undoubtedly understand
The real meaning of
Deformed Workers State

Ablokeimet
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Jun 20 2014 00:18

THE WORKERS' BOMB

The workers' bomb is deepest red,
It fills the bosses' hearts with dread.
We look on it quite cheerfully,
It's not like Uncle Sam's, you see.

So raise the mushroom cloud on high,
Beneath its shade, we'll live and die.
Though coward flinch and traitor sneer,
The workers' bomb is welcome here!

The Spartacists do love its blaze,
The Healyites all chant its praise.
Ernest Mandel sings its song,
The Maoists join the surging throng.

So raise the mushroom cloud on high,
Beneath its shade, we'll live and die.
Though coward flinch and traitor sneer,
The workers' bomb is welcome here!

It suits today, the weak and base,
Whose minds are fixed on outer space,
To march along the streets of town,
To stop the bomb from falling down.

So raise the mushroom cloud on high,
Beneath its shade, we'll live and die.
Though coward flinch and traitor sneer,
The workers' bomb is welcome here!

With heads uncovered swear we all,
To stand beneath it when it falls.
Come fiery blast or fallout grim,
This song shall be our parting hymn.

So raise the mushroom cloud on high,
Beneath its shade, we'll live and die.
Though coward flinch and traitor sneer,
The workers' bomb is welcome here!

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Entdinglichung
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Jun 20 2014 08:22

bit unfair to Ernest Mandel who confronted Tankies, Maoists and Sparts on the issue of nuclear weapons

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cresspot
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Jul 1 2014 04:35


Did Mao draw those? Those are really good

S. Artesian
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Jul 1 2014 20:30
Ablokeimet wrote:
THE WORKERS' BOMB

The workers' bomb is deepest red,
It fills the bosses' hearts with dread.
We look on it quite cheerfully,
It's not like Uncle Sam's, you see.

So raise the mushroom cloud on high,
Beneath its shade, we'll live and die.
Though coward flinch and traitor sneer,
The workers' bomb is welcome here!

The Spartacists do love its blaze,
The Healyites all chant its praise.
Ernest Mandel sings its song,
The Maoists join the surging throng.

So raise the mushroom cloud on high,
Beneath its shade, we'll live and die.
Though coward flinch and traitor sneer,
The workers' bomb is welcome here!

It suits today, the weak and base,
Whose minds are fixed on outer space,
To march along the streets of town,
To stop the bomb from falling down.

So raise the mushroom cloud on high,
Beneath its shade, we'll live and die.
Though coward flinch and traitor sneer,
The workers' bomb is welcome here!

With heads uncovered swear we all,
To stand beneath it when it falls.
Come fiery blast or fallout grim,
This song shall be our parting hymn.

So raise the mushroom cloud on high,
Beneath its shade, we'll live and die.
Though coward flinch and traitor sneer,
The workers' bomb is welcome here!

Didn't this first appear in Proletarian Democracy? Credit where credit is due, comrade.