Trotskyism - the factory, self-employed workers and power - who says what?

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Stalinski
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Jun 17 2014 06:27
Trotskyism - the factory, self-employed workers and power - who says what?

In the Trot nation (area) - who gets to decide on how much the worker is paid, conditions etc.. what if the democratic workers council demands too much - who tells them what to do and enforces it?

jolasmo
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Jun 17 2014 07:59

Wrong website mate.

~J.

Stalinski
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Jun 17 2014 08:46

how do you mean? what is the general politics here then?

Entdinglichung's picture
Entdinglichung
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Jun 17 2014 08:52

full communism!

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Steven.
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Jun 17 2014 09:10
Stalinski wrote:
how do you mean? what is the general politics here then?

the clue is in the name: libcom - libertarian communism (http://libcom.org/notes/about)

Trotsky is just a Stalinist who lost.

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Chilli Sauce
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Jun 17 2014 09:28
Quote:
what if the democratic workers council demands too much

Ah, those greedy workers - as if you ever needed more proof that a Leninist is just a boss in waiting...

EDIT: wait, nevermind, there is more

Quote:
the old 'welfare' problem yet again, ie: why bother to work?

Stalinski
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Jun 17 2014 10:13

but if the workers demand too much, then workers in other companies will likely do the same, then we end up back in full capitalism again - so what is to stop that from happening?

Entdinglichung's picture
Entdinglichung
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Jun 17 2014 10:20

from Marx/Engels on the topic: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/ch03a.ht...

Quote:
The master sent out John
And told him to cut the hay;
But John did not cut the hay
Nor did he come back home.

Then the master sent out the dog
And told him to bite John;
But the dog did not bite John,
John did not cut the hay
And they did not conic back home.

Then the master sent out the stick
And told it to beat the dog;
But the stick did not beat the dog,
The dog did not bite John,
John did not cut the hay
And they did not come back home.

Then the master sent out fire
And told it to burn the stick;
But the fire did not burn the stick,
The stick did not beat the dog,
The dog did not bite John,
John did not cut the hay
And they did not come back home.

Then the master sent out water
And told it to put out the fire;
But the water did not put out the fire,
The fire did not burn the stick,
The stick did not beat the dog,
The dog did not bite John,
John did not cut the hay
And they did not come back home.

Then the master sent out the ox
And told it to drink the water;
But the ox did not drink the water,
The water did not put out the fire,
The fire did not burn the stick,
The stick did not beat the dog,
The dog did not bite John,
John did not cut the hay
And they did not come back home.

Then the master sent out the butcher
And told him to slaughter the ox;
But the butcher did not slaughter the ox,
The ox did not drink the water,
The water did not put out the fire,
The fire did not burn the stick,
The stick did not beat the dog,
The dog did not bite John,
John did not cut the hay
And they did not come back home.

Then the master sent out the hangman
And told him to hang the butcher;
The hangman did hang the butcher,
The butcher slaughtered the ox,
The ox drank the water,
The water put out the fire,
The fire burnt the stick,
The stick beat the dog,
The dog bit John,
John cut the hay,
And they all came back home.

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Chilli Sauce
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Jun 17 2014 10:29
Stalinski wrote:
but if the workers demand too much, then workers in other companies will likely do the same, then we end up back in full capitalism again - so what is to stop that from happening?

Nah, this is just trolling.

Come on. Other companies? Seriously, even a Stalinist has some basic conception that private companies shouldn't exist under any conception of communism. As for wage demands being the catalyst for re-establishing capitalism....I don't even know where to begin.

Read the libcom introductions. If you have some basic idea what we mean by communism, maybe then we can chat. Until then, they best you can hope for is mild flaming.

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Entdinglichung
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Jun 17 2014 11:07
Chilli Sauce wrote:
Seriously, even a Stalinist has some basic conception that private companies shouldn't exist under any conception of communism.

works well in China ;-(

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Gepetto
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Jun 17 2014 11:10
Entdinglichung wrote:
Chilli Sauce wrote:
Seriously, even a Stalinist has some basic conception that private companies shouldn't exist under any conception of communism.

works well in China ;-(

But they have nice tanks. Lots of them. And what have anarchists and infantile ultra-leftist sectarians achieved? Losers.

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Entdinglichung
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Jun 17 2014 11:19

jolasmo
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Jun 17 2014 11:59
Chilli Sauce wrote:
Stalinski wrote:
but if the workers demand too much, then workers in other companies will likely do the same, then we end up back in full capitalism again - so what is to stop that from happening?

Nah, this is just trolling.

But but but Chilli, capitalism is all about greed and excess, real socialism means disciplined ranks of male workers in overalls with hammers marching onwards towards higher production quotas whilst singing choral music.

~J.

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Gepetto
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Jun 17 2014 12:19
jolasmo wrote:
real socialism

"Socialism just got real"- Brezhnev

Entdinglichung wrote:

Don't make me laugh. Here's full communism in practice, get down on your knees:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmgFqkWIUgM&feature=kp

(who cares they were basically celebrating the 1000th anniversary of some tribal chieftain getting baptised so he could be a feudal sovereign with divine right?)

Stalinski
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Jun 18 2014 01:29
Chilli Sauce wrote:
Nah, this is just trolling.

Come on. Other companies? Seriously, even a Stalinist has some basic conception that private companies shouldn't exist under any conception of communism. As for wage demands being the catalyst for re-establishing capitalism....I don't even know where to begin.

On the transition from Capitalism TO Communism - what do you propose here?

It's a straightforward question - unless you believe we can just leap straight into communism, which would basically be Leninsm or Maoism, which you seem to oppose.

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Chilli Sauce
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Jun 18 2014 08:58

I propose mass working class action to defend and improve living standards under capitalism - be it through direct economic demands from the bosses or political demands from the state. Then, once working class power and confidence is high enough, a social revolution.

Now, where I'm sure we'll differ is that you clearly see the need for political program (and leadership) to make this happen. I'd like to think anarchists can play an active role in any revolution, but social movements explode into revolutionary activity in their own time and in their own way and it's the self-activity and self-organisation of the mass of the working class that will bring us there.

Stalinski
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Jun 19 2014 04:07

yet another dodge.

how about answering the OP? seems like no one here has any grasp of reality.

perhaps a re-phrase is required - what is to stop the workers co-operatives turning into anarcho-CAPITALIST adventures?

Fleur
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Jun 19 2014 04:56

Dear Comrade Stalinski,

Just a few little hints about the best way for a Stalinist to engage with anarchists on an anarchist website, not specifically on this thread but on all the threads you've started/contributed to.

Don't call us Trots. Just don't. Not ever. A small jaunt through Twentieth Century History For Dummies will give you some clues why we might object to that. It's just going to annoy us.
There is going to be an assumption that a Stalinist coming here is just trolling, so hostility from you is going to be met with hostility from us.
Giving you the benefit of the doubt that you don't know much about anarchism, it's not the best way to get anarchists to answer your questions by barking orders at us. Uncle Joe was a bit lacking in social niceties and it's not a good thing to emulate.
There's probably not much point in banging on about the Soviet Union. It's not 1989, let it go mate.
Finally, adopting as a username the name of a man who would have had us all killed is most likely to get people's backs up.

Stalinski
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Jun 19 2014 05:25

ok, Stalinski apologises!

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Pennoid
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Jun 19 2014 05:30

Communism isn't about workers cooperatives exchanging goods through a market. Communism is the abolition of value as it operates under capitalism. Commodities, money, the market, "companies", cooperatives, will no longer exist.

Your schema is all wrong. A production process wherein workers produce to exchange on a market is precisely the form of society we're trying to work against.

Stalinski
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Jun 19 2014 08:45

yes, I get the idea, but can't see what will stop the big from eating the weak. How about for those people that just want as much as they can get - what about those who refuse to go along with the community etc..

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Chilli Sauce
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Jun 19 2014 09:48

Need. Blueprints. Now. FTR.

Entdinglichung's picture
Entdinglichung
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Jun 19 2014 14:12

Pennoid's picture
Pennoid
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Jun 19 2014 14:46

No big. No Small. No Money.

Your post is actually a perfect example of the fetishism of the commodity in practice. The personification of capital in the form of CEOs and investors makes it seem like it is their greed what drives the exploitative production process. And while they might be greedy on a personal level, they could be angels, and the system still would still meet crisis, be exploitative, necessitate unemployed, etc. Ironically, you have about the critique of capitalism that Lenin and other 2nd internationalists (inaccurately) accused the anarchists of their time of having: Moralistic, undeveloped, non-technical, and based on personal attitude rather than a struggle between social classes.

You ask questions about companies beating out other companies, or shaking down smaller companies, or hoarding of money. All of these are aspects central to capitalism. The questions you ask are like perfectly formatted around the question of "How do we better manage capitalism and distribute it's product." This has been the primary concern for Lenin and his intellectual descendants for almost a hundred years. This is called the left-wing of capital, and relates only to communism because we oppose the shit out of it.

(TROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL)

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Agent of the In...
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Jun 19 2014 14:55

STALINSKY IS A FETISHINSKY!

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Noah Fence
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Jun 19 2014 21:08

There are certain individuals around here that need to get back under their bridge and stick to hassling goats instead of us poor old anarchos.

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Agent of the In...
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Jun 19 2014 21:17

Poor old anarchos?

Chilli Sauce's picture
Chilli Sauce
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Jun 19 2014 22:14

To be fair, I am definitely at least two of those things....

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Red Marriott
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Jun 20 2014 00:17
stalinoidski wrote:
yes, I get the idea, but can't see what will stop the big from eating the weak. How about for those people that just want as much as they can get - what about those who refuse to go along with the community etc..

It's quite simple - those with such Leninist vanguardist inclinations will naturally congregate around a pursuit of state power - and the insurgent proletariat will therefore necessarily, as part of the revolutionary process, have to "neutralise" them.

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Noah Fence
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Jun 20 2014 05:58
Red Marriott wrote:
stalinoidski wrote:
yes, I get the idea, but can't see what will stop the big from eating the weak. How about for those people that just want as much as they can get - what about those who refuse to go along with the community etc..

It's quite simple - those with such Leninist vanguardist inclinations will naturally congregate around a pursuit of state power - and the insurgent proletariat will therefore necessarily, as part of the revolutionary process, have to "neutralise" them.

Or to put it even more simply, you are for it mate.

Stalinski
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Jun 20 2014 08:39

Stalinski - he's still here, alive and kicking!

OK, I'm gonna check out Parecon, and see where that leads.