Fascism in Eastern Europe

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Joined: 8-01-11
Nov 16 2012 11:22
Fascism in Eastern Europe

I really don't understand the thought process that Eastern Europeans go through when they subscribe to fascism, I mean the Nazis wanted to germanify/ exterminate their asses (at one point Jews hid Poles from persecution). I understand the nationalism, but other than that it completely baffles me and I was hoping someone could enlighten me.

Ed's picture
Joined: 1-10-03
Nov 16 2012 12:36

I remember reading on Stormfront ages ago that Nazi policy towards Eastern Europe was a mistake because Eastern Europeans really should have been considered Aryans, it's just that Hitler didn't have all the scientific evidence at the time.

Stupid fucking nazis.. roll eyes

Arbeiten's picture
Joined: 28-01-11
Nov 16 2012 13:43
wojtek wrote:
(at one point Jews hid Poles from persecution).

Come on wojjie we know history is never this clear cut, 'they should know better' never works in practice! (and indeed fascism is anything but reasonable*). Check out the Jedwabne massacre in 1941 for a contrary example of polish and jewish relations.

*Look at the goons in the EDL who talk about WW2 as if it were the defining moment in the whole of human history, carry israeli flags, yet also get caught flying the Sieg Heil.

Joined: 28-10-09
Nov 18 2012 21:55

Fascism always puts an estreme form of nationalism at center stage. In this kind of nationalism, the nation is defined by ties of blood, not citizenship. The idea is to build a strong state in which "the nation" expresses itself. And everything outside the nation is treated as inferior.

Well, in Germany this nation is defined as 'German'. In Poland, this nation is defined as "Polish", in Bulgaria as "Bulgarian", in the Netherlands as "Dutch". The nations vary, but the idea remains the same.

What it comes down to: fascism is not defined by Aryan-ness or Germann-ness: these things only define a special BRAND of fascism, ther Nazi brand. It is "the Nation"that is the central category. Which nation? That depends on which variety of fascism we talk about.

Django's picture
Joined: 18-01-08
Nov 18 2012 23:08

It seems pretty common for Central and Eastern European fascists to look for antecedents outside of German National Socialism, for pretty obvious reasons. Of course, fascism (and nationalism generally) doesn't require internal consistency to function, and you do get swastikas getting painted on walls by Poles and other ridiculous shit, but at an organised level one or a combination of the following usually happens:

* Reference to indigenous prewar fascist parties and movements, which existed in every European country (e.g. Polish NOP positioning itself as the successor to the prewar ONR)

* "Third position", non- or post-Hitlerite fascist politics, as e.g. the above, National Bolshevism in Russia, the Workers' Party in the Czech Republic.

* Euronationalism as in Western Europe.

* Reference to Italian "social fascism", and it's modern youth-oriented successors that have tried to ape the success of anarchist/anti-fascist youth culture in Europe - CasaPound, the Autonomous Nationalists in Germany and the Czech Republic, etc.

Django's picture
Joined: 18-01-08
Nov 18 2012 23:14
Arbeiten wrote:
Look at the goons in the EDL who talk about WW2 as if it were the defining moment in the whole of human history, carry israeli flags, yet also get caught flying the Sieg Heil.

Hmm, even though you see both of these happening at EDL demonstrations I doubt you'd see the exact same individuals doing both. You get both together because of, on the one hand, WW2's absolutely central role in British nationalism (criticising the war and Britain's role in it now is still pretty taboo), and on the other the usual far-right types (correctly) reading the racism that underlies the anti-Muslim rhetoric and gravitating towards the EDL. There's fascists involved in the EDL, but their dominant politics aren't really fascist, in my opinion.

Joined: 29-09-06
Nov 19 2012 20:12

Hey, this thread is getting pretty confused.

Can talk for hours on Russian, Serbian and Polish nationalist and fascist varities. It is not as simple as you write here. Some things you say are correct, some not.

The first thing that needs to be established is what fascism is. We can look to the root of it in Italian fascism instead of nazism. There are various varities traditionally considered as part of the fascist tradition, although people can differ as to what they'd include in some cases. Besides the Mussolini fascist tradition, you have futurists, third positionists, like Falangists, parts of Carlists could be included, national syndicalists, the specific ideas of Romanian fascists. There were other regimes incorporating elements of fascism - Peronism, Salazarism even Baathism. In more modern times, there is the fascism of the New Right, Euroasian movement, etc. So the spectrum of fascism is very broad and when you read more about the basic elements of fascist ideology, you see that the blood issue is not the main one, but rather the anti-democratic totalitarian state, nation, corporativism, mission of national "regeneration", anti-materialism, etc.

So if you want to understand how 20,000 people now went to the fascist demo in Warsaw last week, you have to look more at the social issues which are giving the fascists credibility in society. The first problem is the extreme economic crisis and perception of Polish people being cheated by foreign interests. This is largely a reaction to the worsening economic situation which occured after EU integration. Then there is a sense of something from "outside" attacking the values of Polish culture. Of course this is partially an artificial culture, but it is highly connected to an identity created by the church during the anti-communist reaction.

NOP, refers to the tradition of ONR Falanga, a specific part of ONR. Because there were two wings of the pre-war ONR. It was, as it names suggests, a Falangist group promoting Catholic totalitarianism. The other ONR broke off from endecja. (National Democratic movement). The ONR was a rampantly anti-semitic organization and some of them even actively helped nazis. There was some division in the war-time fascistic movements about this question.

Not all far-right and nationalist movements in Poland can actually qualify as fascists, because of the different ideas about "democracy". Among the fascist movements, you have some which are more racist than others (Blood and Honor / Combat 18, which actually refers to nazism, the only ones in Poland really related to that tradition), third positionist (NOP), Falangists of different sorts (there is even a Polish Falange), Euroasianist (based on the new right) national autonomists, mystic fascists (relating to cultural issues).

For me it is clear that the Falangist traditions are the strongest here. So the whole first question is wrongly framed, because the national socialist tradition and the racism of the nazis are not the main thing. This is clero-fascism.

Now the ONR and MW have come together and probably, with help from other European nationalists, will try to get into politics.