Reverse racism

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meerov21
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Mar 10 2018 17:02
Reverse racism

Many racists or Nazis use the language of victims. Thus historical German Nazis said (not without reason) that Germany was victim of the monstrous unjust Treaty of Versailles, Germany had lost part of the territories, and German working class had to pay huge reparations to the predatory imperialists of England and France. But Nazis used victim rhetoric to justify ugly expansion and killings of Slavs and Jews. If we use logic of some modern anarchists and leftists then we start to think: to atack nazi is "victimblaming"!

In fact, many modern anarchists, as well as the leftists, are not supporters of the social libertarian revolution and class uprising. They are supporters of different types of racism or separatism directed against white men.

If we look at the real socio-revolutionary movements from Bialystok to Milan, from Baku to Barcelona between 1900 and 1950, we will say that anarcho-communists, members of Autonomous councils or revolutionary communitarian and syndicalist movements believed that the truth is one for all! This is equality, personal freedom, brotherhood of self-governing labor collective, and direct action.

If modern pseudo-syndicalists had called on revolutionaries to file a complaint against the boss at the state court, that anarchists would have simply turned their backs on legalists. If the modern leftists had told them about the sexist and separatist statements of blacks or radical feminists, then old Spanish or American anarchist would have shrugged and sadly said: there are also fascists among blacks and women.

Some leftists are not a social revolutionary, they just help liberals quarrel between black and white working class.

Black racists do exist. "Racism is prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior" (Oxford dictionary). Racism is not necessarily a system. The leftists and left liberals artificially and wilfully alters the meaning of words to justify black racism, to bring it out of criticism. Also there are thousands of black racists and some are organized.

The notion of "white privilege" is part of a racist discourse invented by left liberals. In the US, Western Europe, and Eastern Europe, there are tens of millions of white poor people whose situation is much worse than that of many rich or midle Blacks or Asians. I do not know the average figures, maybe if you compare the average income in the United States between white and black, then white will be higher. But this figure says little, because it is "the average temperature of patients in the hospital." In US there are millions of poor white workers and unemployed people living in a Rusty belt and in many other places. They have no power, they have no wealth. For me, these people are friends in misfortune, like poor Blacks, Koreans, Jews or Indians.

And one more thing about privileges. I am very funny then a resident of a rich country tell me about my privileges (I live in Russia, i live under U.S. sanctions and my parents are not white, but Jews). However, we did not choose where we were born, and we (most people on the planet) do not control business and government. Therefore, we take no responsibility for the policy of the elite. So we're not responsible for the wage hierarchy.

It would be strange if we accused a black poor man or an African labor migrant who came to live in the US of "having privileges". Meanwhile, his benefits are huge: in comparison with the inhabitants of Africa, his salary in ten times more. But even within Africa itself the residents of a big capital city live better than the inhabitants of the poor provinces. Capitalism is hierarchical. But as long as it exists, it's stupid to accuse one employee of getting paid more than the other.

If you don't have political and economic power, if you don't run a company, if you don't exploit a hired labor, you're not an exploiter.

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R Totale
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Mar 10 2018 17:19
meerov21 wrote:
The notion of "white privilege" is part of a racist discourse invented by left liberals. In the US, Western Europe, and Eastern Europe, there are tens of millions of white poor people whose situation is much worse than that of many rich or midle Blacks or Asians. I do not know the average figures, maybe if you compare the average income in the United States between white and black, then white will be higher. But this figure says little, because it is "the average temperature of patients in the hospital." In US there are millions of poor white workers and unemployed people living in a Rusty belt and in many other places. They have no power, they have no wealth. For me, these people are friends in misfortune, like poor Blacks, Koreans, Jews or Indians.

Actually, whatever awful uses the concept may have been put through since, the origins of the concept lie in W.E.B. DuBois' "psychological wage of whiteness", and the way that thinkers like Noel Ignatiev built on that work. You might find this useful:

Quote:
A series of essays by Theodore Allen and Noel Ignatiev, collected as the pamphlet White Blindspot, offered the initial formulation. Ignatiev and Allen’s argument was that the legacy of slavery was the imposition of white supremacy by the ruling class, as an instrument of class division. But this was a political theory, not a cultural or moral one, and it held that “white chauvinism” was actually detrimental to the white working class, preventing unity with black workers. So fighting against white supremacy was in fact a central part of a political program that favored the self-organization of all workers...

Black revolutionaries throughout American history have argued that the project of emancipation requires overcoming the divisive logic of identity. Although he characterized the material advantages of whiteness as a “psychological wage,” W.E.B. Du Bois did not reduce whiteness to an effect of individual psychology. In fact, immediately preceding the passage on the psychological wage, Du Bois wrote:

The theory of race was supplemented by a carefully planned and slowly evolved method, which drove such a wedge between the white and black workers that there probably are not today in the world two groups of workers with practically identical interests who hate and fear each other so deeply and persistently and who are kept so far apart that neither sees anything of common interest.

If today liberal whites refuse to recognize this common interest, and eschew the socialist program that Du Bois vigorously endorsed, we will remain locked within the original sin of whiteness: the alliance of poor whites, abandoned by Northern elites, with the regressive and reactionary power of white capital.

“Capitalism cannot reform itself,” Du Bois wrote. “It is doomed to self-destruction. No universal selfishness can bring social good to all.” Unlike today’s multiculturalist liberals, DuBois did not merely seek a more diverse ruling class. He recognized that inequality would persist as long as capitalism persevered. There has only ever been one alternative to whiteness and its barbed offerings: the multiracial alliance of the working class against white supremacy and private property.

ajjohnstone
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Mar 10 2018 21:20

"White Privilege" always sounded to me similar to "Labour Aristocracy" and not a very useful concept.

Anyway, didn't John Lennon go some way to dispel the idea with "Woman is the Nigger of the World"?

I think we can all create our own league tables of oppression.

What we cannot be is immune to the suffering and brutalities inflicted on various parts of humanity by the application of divide and rule tactics that does goes well beyond the norm.

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boozemonarchy
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Mar 11 2018 03:31

Fucking look here meerov, most anarchists are tired and critical of liberal identity politics but there is a god damned difference between a black person in US holding an unflattering opinion of white people and the egregious structural racism that exists here that very well could see their life cut short. Do you not see that? They are not the same thing - not even close.

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Juan Conatz
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Mar 11 2018 07:00

Pretty unsophisticated and incoherent rant, to be honest. Although not too different from the crude remarks on 'identity politics' that one comes across on the far left somewhat more often nowadays.

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Croy
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Mar 11 2018 12:46

Thank you boozemonarchy for saying what we were all thinking. I thought OP would have been dispelled now as a piece of shit or troll, one of the two. I cant tell which

meerov21
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Mar 11 2018 14:42

There are some empty arguments! Suppose white racism is stronger than black racism, so what? This is not an excuse for pseudo-anarchists and left-wing (indeed liberals ) who protect one against the other or do not want to see black racism, or say it does not exist, or accept a racist discourse of "white privilege" directed against the white working class. Many on the left began to kiss the ass of Zionists after the Holocaust. But Zionists began to deport and occupy Arabs.

I didn't say black and white racism are totaly the same. I wrote that they were both disgusting and both interfere with the unity of the resistance of workers. It seems somebody forgot how to read English although it is your native language, not mine.

Fleur
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Mar 11 2018 14:47

Meerov talking uninformed crap again. Quelle surprise.

meerov21
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Mar 11 2018 14:49
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ajjohnstone
"White Privilege" always sounded to me similar to "Labour Aristocracy" and not a very useful concept.

I agree. Both are shit that directs anger from one part of the working class to another. These concepts are beneficial only to the ruling class. Of course, when white racists attack blacks, it looks disgusting, and workers who have good jobs can be loyalists. Nevertheless, the goal of the social revolutionary movement is to unite them all. So "identity policy" must be destroyed. None of the types of racism are acceptable.

meerov21
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Mar 11 2018 14:52

Fleur Meerov talking uninformed crap again. Quelle surprise.

You forgot to tell me that I'm a racist-fascist-sexist-ageist and other left insults. Otherwise you can't talk.

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Mar 11 2018 15:22
meerov21 wrote:
There are some empty arguments! Suppose white racism is stronger than black racism, so what? This is not an excuse for pseudo-anarchists and left-wing (indeed liberals ) who protect one against the other or do not want to see black racism, or say it does not exist, or accept a racist discourse of "white privilege" directed against the white working class.

What do you think of Ignatiev and Allen's concept of white privilege? You seem to have missed the helpful summary posted above, so here it is again:

Quote:
A series of essays by Theodore Allen and Noel Ignatiev, collected as the pamphlet White Blindspot, offered the initial formulation. Ignatiev and Allen’s argument was that the legacy of slavery was the imposition of white supremacy by the ruling class, as an instrument of class division. But this was a political theory, not a cultural or moral one, and it held that “white chauvinism” was actually detrimental to the white working class, preventing unity with black workers. So fighting against white supremacy was in fact a central part of a political program that favored the self-organization of all workers.

Do you think that it's useful to describe that theory as "a racist discourse... directed against the white working class"?
How about this:

Ignatiev wrote:
White supremacy is the real secret of the rule of the bourgeoisie and the hidden cause behind the failure of the labor movement in this country. White-skin privileges serve only the bourgeoisie, and precisely for that reason they will not let us escape them, but instead pursue us with them through every hour of our life, no matter where we go. They are poison bait. To suggest that the acceptance of white-skin privilege is in the interests of white workers is equivalent to suggesting that swallowing the worm with the hook in it is in the interests of the fish. To argue that repudiating these privileges is a “sacrifice” is to argue that the fish is making a sacrifice when it leaps from the water, flips its tail, shakes its head furiously in every direction and throws the barbed offering.
Fleur
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Mar 11 2018 15:24

My dear, I can talk but it's not worth wasting my time on such an ignorant, ahistorical, polically vapid rant on reverse racism. I understand, a person of colour was mean to you once. Get over it.

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Mar 11 2018 15:30

The point is that as the two are so different in scope and impact that the only reason for equalising them is to downplay white supremacy. In the abstract theoretical sense, absolutely they are both disgusting. In the real world however one is a serious problem and one is a comparatively minute issue.

Internet is a language and theory based space. These inconsistencies in 'our' theory which are completely sane afk become huge issues in this language space. Sometimes it seems to me as if this is becoming a real problem and a way of communicating the issue is lacking.

At work I've had several discussions where it takes *a lot* of work to overcome the adherence to "theory" or some sort of internal logic of argument. When the lived fact of the issue is in very obvious conflict with the immediate logic of arguments. After hours of making the discussion more practical people eventually can see that talking about black racism or false rape accusations should be avoided.

So even if it's worse on the internet its also a problem elsewhere. I do think it's important to understand that arguments like Meerovs make sense (in a narrow way) and we should wait calling people names until we know they have racist or fascist sympathies. I also think that demanding different things from people based on identity is dangerous even if it's sometimes necessary.

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Mar 11 2018 21:28
meerov21 wrote:
None of the types of racism are acceptable.

This is a good example of extremely inappropriate equivicating between a black person being mean to you once and an entire system of oppression backed up by the full force of government and deeply engrained into all levels of social life.

Regarding the inappropriateness - it's best to rely on fictional analogy to fully understand the stupidity -

Guy - "Help, I've been fucking stabbed by some dude with a longsword!"

Meerov - "Aye, that is bad I guess - but have you ever had a paper cut? - little buggers really HURT!"

Guy - "Fucking get help!"

Meerov - "There are probably like 5 people on this block who are suffering papercuts right now and you don't see them in the street demanding immediate relief. Reminds of when I got one on the web between me thumb and pointer, real bad one there, ruined my afternoon tea but I soldiered on. . ." (continues on, oblivious to the man bleeding out in front of him)

Guy - *dies

So yea, I suppose one could say that both longsword assaults and self-inflicted paper cuts are, uh, mean things - but what exactly have you said here? Well, not much (the whole thing is incoherent) but you do leave the suggestion hanging in the air that both are somehow equally serious, have arisen from the same preconditions and can be addressed in similar fashion. It's this type of argumentation that causes people to conclude that you're really intending to downplay white supremacy and undermine the justification of oppressed folks fight against it - which is an undeniably racist thing to be doing.

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Mar 11 2018 21:54

Black people can be racist, women can be sexist, people on a libertarian communist board can come out with rubbish.

It is a standard rhetorical trick to claim to be the victim, it works even better when there is some truth to it.

White privilege doesn't mean that all white people oppress blacks, any more than the existence of a black racist means that structural racism doesn't exist. There are a lot of things in my life I am unhappy with, many of which are caused by this society. I have also been a victim of racism multiple times, both in single incidents and sustained trouble. But I still recognise that structural racism exists and that while it was pretty unpleasant for me personally it doesn't change how the world works. So just because I don't feel like I benefit on a day to day basis from racism or sexism it doesn't mean that they don't exist. I remember I usd to think, and say, that patriarchy didn't benefit me because I didn't oppress women I didn't benefit from it, so I didn't feel that I should be blamed for it. Apologies for anyone who ever had to listen to that. I was worng, it wasn't about me, and patriarchy wasn't just about getting away with date-rape and domestic violence and that I completely failed to recognise it.

Also no-one has ever said that black people can't be racist etc. that is deeply wrong and misguided. One of the problems with racism is that it is not simple. I remember the racism between afro-caribbean and african people where I grew up. The whole point about it is that it tries to give everyone someone to hate and feel superior to.

A nuanced view of racism isn't actually too hard. It is ridiculous to try to claim it is an anti-white conspiracy. That is ridiculous and requires an almost perverse refusal to actually think about it. "How did you manage to make this about you?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0McqAsJ4BE

meerov, I am not trying to be rude, and I hope you will take this in the right way, because it is easy to feel as you do. But it is wrong and I do hope you will think more deeply, rather than letting, anger frustration or whatever lead you into a dead-end full of the confused and actual racists.

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Mar 12 2018 13:39

Ok listen, if you define racism as a subjective feeling of dislike of a certain race, then Yeah, of course black racists exist.

I don't know what you want to do about that, other than try and change the narrative or circumstances that give rise to those feelings in People. I don't find People who are racist in that sense appealing no matter where they come from or what their race is, and I don't really care to spend time With them.

But that kind of racism isn't really the issue when it comes to the acual material effects of racism in the western world.

In the United States there is a racism that is not grounded in subjective feelings but which is systemic and historically based, that racism is essnecially created by and beneficial too white People and especially wealthy white People.

It's THIS kind of racism that results in millions of black Young men having their lives destroyed by the justice system for Things that do not usually effect Young white men, it's this kind of racism that results in black men being shot by cops, it's this kind of racism that makes employment much more difficult for black People than white People who are otherwise the same.

I also have a problem With the Whole Identity politicking of much of the left (I find it's much smaller of a problem than right wing scare mongers make it out to be, and is usually Limited to wealthy leftists who find it much more confortable to go around calling People racists and sexists while ignoring major economic issues).

HOWEVER, to claim that there is ANY equivalence between a few black individuals With negative feelings towards other races and the entire historic systemic racism that has been built into Our justice system is completely ridiculous. There is not equivalence. If I meet a black guy who doesn't like white People or mexicans just because of their race, I just don't hangout With him; poor and working class black People can't just not hangout With the cops, they can't avoid employment ... it's not NEARLY the same.

Of course in other cultures it may be different, I can't say. For example in many parts of Africa there is widespread discrimination against pygmy people by the Bantu majority, in those Places one could say that Bantu People would have a form of priviledge whereas had they been in the US they would almost certainly suffer discrimination. This is INDEPENDANT of any individuals personal feelings about someone of a different background.

But here's what I will say, all these charlatin right wingers who say "oh poor white People arn't privileged" as though they were advocates for poor whites ... what are they ACTUALLY doing for poor white People? nothing. So far the most vocal advocate for poor whites in America today that I've seen has been the black prechaer Dr. Barber of the "poor people's campain".

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BloodsoakedNecr...
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Mar 12 2018 16:19

My spidey senses are giving me major vibes that this is a concern troll thread.

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Mar 12 2018 19:22
BloodsoakedNecropolis wrote:
My spidey senses are giving me major vibes that this is a concern troll thread.

It could be, but it's in line with what Meerov has posted before.

meerov21
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Mar 12 2018 21:43

jef costello
Black people can be racist, women can be sexist, people on a libertarian communist board can come out with rubbish.

Certainly

White privilege doesn't mean that all white people oppress blacks

Certainly. But you know perfectly well that for a large number of left-wingers, and, unfortunately, for many anarchists, the conversation itself about black racism is unacceptable. And Yes, they believe that if you are a white male you are privileged and sort of a guilty man.

Also no-one has ever said that black people can't be racist etc.

Not truth. The mass of leftists and anarchists say it all the time.

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Mar 12 2018 22:18
meerov21 wrote:
Not truth. The mass of leftists and anarchists say it all the time.

Usually its the short (less patient) form of the long explanations above.

Why do you feel that it's important to speak about black racism? Why is it worth discussing?

meerov21
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Mar 12 2018 22:19

Rommon

Ok listen, if you define racism as a subjective feeling of dislike of a certain race, then Yeah, of course black racists exist...But that kind of racism isn't really the issue when it comes to the acual material effects of racism in the western world.

How do you imagine the cooperation of white and black workers (Arabs and French, British and Pakistanis, Arabs and Jews) if millions of them are infected with racism? My friends Jews worked together with the black poor in NY. Almost all blacks proletarians they worked with were anti-white racists. It is good that my friends were able to integrate into this team due to the ability to negotiate with people. Then black workers began to call my friend (she is a woman) "Jewish mom". But when I worked in Israel with the Arabs, I was much less fortunate. Ironically, the Arabs of the Israeli-occupied territories were not racist or anti-Semitic, and I could easily find common ground with them. But many of Israeli Arabs hated the Jews and because of that I had to quit my job (I was an ordinary worker as them). All these problems exist.

If a participant of the Black lives matters says white people should give their homes to black, it's racism. If an american anarchist insults me or my friends (poor Slavs, Caucasian or Jewish), say we are "privileged white men", it's racist stupidity directed against large part of the white working class in USA and Europe .

This problem is real for any social revolutionary movement that claims to unite black and white workers. Racism is part of the ideology of the ruling class. But racism is also part of the ideology of alternative authoritarian groups.

If we stand in the position of the social libertarian revolution, we know that victory over capitalism is possible only through social and class international solidarity. We can't defeat racism in the context of capitalism, since we do not have resources to do it. We do not control production, media, social factory. We become a social-revolutionary subject only when we unite. And loyalty to black racism hinders unity. The working class who sympathized with Trump or Putin should be with us, not with them, just as the black poor should be with us, not with the Democrats and not with some separatists movements of Blacks or Caucasians .

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Mar 13 2018 07:27
Quote:
How do you imagine the cooperation of white and black workers (Arabs and French, British and Pakistanis, Arabs and Jews) if millions of them are infected with racism? My friends Jews worked together with the black poor in NY. Almost all blacks proletarians they worked with were anti-white racists. It is good that my friends were able to integrate into this team due to the ability to negotiate with people. Then black workers began to call my friend (she is a woman) "Jewish mom". But when I worked in Israel with the Arabs, I was much less fortunate. Ironically, the Arabs of the Israeli-occupied territories were not racist or anti-Semitic, and I could easily find common ground with them. But many of Israeli Arabs hated the Jews and because of that I had to quit my job (I was an ordinary worker as them). All these problems exist.

I agree, these are problems.

So let's take two examples, a poor white guy working in a primarily black workplace/neighborhood, who is bullied because of his race.

A poor black guy working in a primarily white workplace neighborhood, who is bullied becuase of his race.

Both of these situations are bad and should be dealt With, but they are not political/systemic issues.

These are Things that should be dealt With by HR, Churches, neighborhoods, families and so on.

Black lives matter, to take an example, isn't protesting some douche bag calling his work mate or neighbour "nigger" or putting up the rebel flag of the South ... that guy is an asshole and shouldn't talk to People that way and should face consequences at work.

Black lives matter is protesting against the literal murder of Young black men by police officers, the literal imprisonment of millions of black men for Things that white People almost never get punished for, and when they do, not nearly as severely.

Let's take a personal example, I have been harrased or been on the receiving end of negative comments due to my ethnic background, and it's distasteful and the People who do that are assholes, in those cases I have to decide if I'm going to ignore it or confront the situation.

But that doesn't compare to, getting thrown to the ground by cops who pull guns on you for walking Down the street holding a bag on the way home from working late.

The former is personal and a shame, the latter is systemic and political, the police are an arm of the State, they enforce the Law, it's a Whole different ball game.

Now maybe I'm just not hanging out With American University anarchists, but I've been around many anti-Capitalists and so on ... I've NEVER encounterd anti-white bullying, ever, I've only had one person, try and bring up Identity politics With me, in terms of "you should check Your priviledge" kind of thing, and that was a rather moderate liberal white woman.

Much of the Language of Identity politics I don't agree With, at all, so for example I think the Language of "privilege" is unhelpful, even though what is actually meant by that is absolutely true.

But I think this is not nearly as large of a problem as People make it out to be, at least in my experience. Most of it seems to be just upper middle class/wealthy university "radicals" who like the tweet and virtue signal. I've never encountered anything like that in People who are actually organizing and fighting for working class and poor people's interests.

Like I said, before, right now, in America, some of the loudest voices that are standing up for the white poor, and the white working class, are coming out of the radical Black Church (Cornel West, Rv. Barber, and so on).

Poor white folks problems are not that there are some People who are black and can be assholes to white People ... the Black Hebrew Israelites are not a major problem, their problems are the exact same as poor black and poor hispanic people's problems (perhaps minus the extra police attention the latter Groups have).

I'm sorry that you have had bad experiences With People insulting you for Your ethnicity, it's a shame and it's not helpful ... and People who do that are ass holes, and it shouldn't happen, but it is a different category than systemic racism, and needs to be addressed differently.

jolasmo
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Mar 14 2018 12:22
meerov21
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Mar 14 2018 14:03

"Poor white folks problems are not that there are some People who are black and can be assholes to white People ..."

Sometimes it is a problem and very serious problem and I gave examples. As for Israel, the largest group of Jews who are discriminated is a million "white" Ashkenazi Jews from the former Soviet Union. And among the chiefs who exploited us, there were many Jews with swarthy skin from Iraq and North Africa.

But I agree that this issue is not a major problem in modern society in the United States or Israel. Rather, I would have noticed that this is one of the main problems of anarchists. Anarchists will never gain much influence among the white working class if they are tolerant of black racism, and especially if they insult white workers or Jews by calling poor man a "privileged white man."

P.S. Moderator arbitrarily and without my consent changed the title of my article! Well...well..well... how can we talk about freedom of speech when there is censorship? This is no longer the first example of censorship on this site!

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Mar 15 2018 08:00

Meerov21,

Notice I said the western world. Not even the most Identity politicky leftist out there would argue that "white privilege" is universal, whiteness didn't even exist as a concept in the ancient world, there was not concept of race in the modern sense.

So Yeah, in Asia Minor for example in the first Century the Galatians, who were immigrants from Northern europe, or the Sythians from Russia were persecuted and so on, they were light skinned compared to the locals in Asia minor ... But that was a completely different world and context, as was the Soviet Union, as was early modern North Africa.

No one is saying that it's impossible for a specific culture With a specific background to systemically oppress light skinned People, nobody has ever said that. But I would be very suprised if Leftists who were active in North Africa in the 1800s or Anarchists in the Soviet Union would ever have argued that no one should worry about the systemic persecution of Jews because they were light skinned.

The United States and western europe, have a COMPLETELY different history and context, and in THIS history and context what lefitsts Call "white privilege" is a really, historical, phenomenon.

Black "racism" is not a major, or even minor problem in the "white" working class, Blacks have no systemic advantage over whites, there arn't black cops systematically harrasing and murdering white kids.

I don't know of any on-the-ground-organizing leftist who Works in primarily poor white communities that goes around calling them privileged ... do you?

If you're worried about Hollywood leftists, or rich University kids, ok, but to be honest, nobody should take them serious anyway. Since when did Rich university kids ever have any actual contact With working class People anyway?

Look if you want to bring attention to specific instances of bullying, fine, but that isn't a political issue.

Mike Harman
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Mar 15 2018 10:16
Rommon wrote:
there aren't black cops systematically harrassing and murdering white kids.

Not only this, but if we look at Baltimore, 50% of the police force are white, 40% are black, and the mayor is black. They still disproportionately harass and kill black people because policing in the US is conducted along class and racial lines institutionally, and doesn't require cops themselves to be bigoted.

Three of the six cops involved in the killing of Freddie Gray were black: https://www.theroot.com/baltimore-police-department-brings-internal-charges-aga-1795440298

When people say "black people can't be racist against white people" it's because there are not the institutional power structures for that to be expressed through, and because there are other words like prejudice and bigotry that more accurately describe individual attitudes.

If you look at South Africa, there are people like Katie Hopkins and Lauren Southern doing tours organised by pro-apartheid Afrikaners pushing a 'white genocide' narrative over some extremely mild land reform proposals (essentially converting land titles on some private farms from freeholds to leaseholds with the state as the nominal owner). What this ignores (or more accurately is trying to obscure) is despite the ANC taking political power post-apartheid, they've completely maintained the capitalist property relations that enforce huge racial disparities in South Africa, as well as massacring striking miners and repressing urban land reform groups. Or for that matter the issues that Nigerian migrants face in South Africa with xenophobic attacks that have been mostly unreported: https://www.thecable.ng/nigerian-stabbed-south-africa

meerov21 wrote:
As for Israel, the largest group of Jews who are discriminated is a million "white" Ashkenazi Jews from the former Soviet Union.

Israel has been working on genetic testing to 'prove' the jewishness of Ashkenazi - see for example here: http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/New-law-says-genetic-test-valid-for-determining-Jewish-status-in-some-cases-506584 - that's some nasty eugenics shit if you ask me.

Meanwhile Israel is deporting black jews from places like Ethiopia https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-they-didn-t-want-ethiopian-jews-in-israel-either-1.5785804

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Rommon
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Mar 15 2018 12:33
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When people say "black people can't be racist against white people" it's because there are not the institutional power structures for that to be expressed through, and because there are other words like prejudice and bigotry that more accurately describe individual attitudes.

I agree, although I don't like that Language, beceause the implication is an equivocation between subjective predjudices and systems ... technically "People" arn't racist as much as institutions are.

Nor do I like the constant hunt for famous People who say something prejudice ... I don't care about "white" racists, I care about Institutional racism that leads to Young black men (primarily) being systematically murdered.

I don't know much about South Africa, so I won't comment, other than I instinctually prefer class based transfers. Although South Africa has many many racial problems Beyond the Afrikaner/Black narrative. But about that actual Law I don't know.

These Things are complicated and historically contingent. For example in the UK there is a history of white supremacy and colonialism, but at the same time some of the most discriminated Groups there are eastern Europeans. It's not black and white.

When we say reverse racism isn't a thing, what we are usually saying is something like this "a black guy calling you a honky, or something rude; is NOT equivalent to a a cop calling a black person Nigger, not by leaps and bounds; One major reason is if the black guy calling you a honky gets aggressive you can Call the cops, if the cop calling the black person a nigger gets aggresive the black person might die."

But all these People who go on and on about the "white" working class and poor and how they aren't priviledged .... why don't you go out there and be in solidarity With the white working class and poor? Because Guess what, Black Lives matters in many cases is doing just that.

when a poor white kid gets shot by the cops the ONLY People I see protesting are BLM folk. I just don't see anywhere on the actual ground where concern about systemic racism against black People has prevented any solidarity With white poor folk, it just doesn't happen. Like I said earlier the LOUDEST voices in the US right now on white povery are 2 black intellectuals and anti-racists ...

Mike Harman
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Joined: 7-02-06
Mar 15 2018 14:00

Yes I remember when this six year old boy got killed when police shot at the car he was in, it got highlighted by people who would be associated with Black Lives Matter, because while Black Lives Matter the national organisation is essentially an NGO, there are local chapters that are mostly independent and people who still use the slogan who are properly organising against the police:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/30/us/police-video-louisiana-shooting.html

Rurkel
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Mar 15 2018 14:12
Mike Harman wrote:
Meanwhile Israel is deporting black jews from places like Ethiopia https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-they-didn-t-want-ethiopian-jews-in-israel-either-1.5785804

Just for qualification, the black people now in danger of en masse deportations from Israel are not Jews (hence the past tense used in the title of the article, if the Ethiopian Jews were deported now, it would say "don't want").

You might be confusing it with this case - https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-deported-african-convert-becomes-test-case-for-conservative-jews-grievances-against-israel-1.5729455, where racism was combined with internal inter-Jewish Orthodox-vs-Conservative bickering. It's not, however, directly related to the en masse deportations above, even though the partial indirect link is evident.

Mike Harman
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Mar 15 2018 14:21
Rurkel wrote:

You might be confusing it with this case - https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-deported-african-convert-becomes-test-case-for-conservative-jews-grievances-against-israel-1.5729455, where racism was combined with internal inter-Jewish Orthodox-vs-Conservative bickering. It's not, however, directly related to the en masse deportations above, even though the partial indirect link is evident.

I think you're right, I've seen https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israel-shuts-door-on-jewish-convert-from-africa-for-second-time-1.5791603 about the same person from a bit more recently.

meerov21
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Mar 15 2018 17:50

I have already given examples that racism against people with light or white skin can be a problem. I'd like to add something to that.

Anarchism is at its core, a very simple idea. It is the idea of a direct labor democracy that replaces state and exploitation. The question is how to do it. After all, in order for people to do this, millions must first gain the experience of self-organization, and secondly the experience of direct action, going beyond the borders of the state and laws.

Historically, there were two ways.

a) self-Organization during strikes for the salary and improvement of working conditions organized rigidly, without cooperation with courts and departments of state administration or deputies. From this practice grew the movement of revolutionary syndicates or Autonomous working councils (territoial unions of factory committees).

b) Territorial protest and cooperative movements from which grew libertarian communes (from the communes of Aragon in 1936 to modern libertarian communes in Mexico). Anarchist or libertarian society grows out of these movements and their cooperation.

Racism is an obstacle for the development of anarchism, since it introduces a split in the ranks of the workers, lower social strata. In this sense, there is no difference between black and white racism - both of which are widespread.

May be in United States white racism is a much more stronger shit then black one. It is bad that it is strong. So what? If we are anarchists, we cannot play political games, participate in elections with anti-racist slogans, etc. Also We're not 911.

Yes, capitalism is terrible shit and it carries a lot of conflicts. Our task is to do away with him. And I don't think by insulting a white worker or a Jew, a factory worker or an unemployed person, calling him a "privileged white male" we'll get anything positive. He'll just fuck up with us and go vote for Trump. That's the main idea of my notes.

If that's understandable, I'd like to ask a few questions about privileges in USA.