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Anarchism and theatrics

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wojtek
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Jan 8 2012 22:48
Quote:
BJJ wrote:
whatever no one round here would have anything to do with a group in the area if it had students in it.

So if students (background aside for a moment) wanted to beef up you picket line or help you get your wages back ala Office Angels, you'd send them packing?! I bet you the vast majority of people wouldn't!

Anyway, listen from 2:35 - 3:40 minutes...

As Ill Bill said, we're all students! And if you're looking for prole credentials, he grew up in the projects in Brooklyn, so he trumps you. tongue

Quote:
BJJ wrote:
ED can you recomend any practical thing to do?

I know it's in March, but you and your friends could get involved with this, show solidarity with TEH REAL PROLEZ:

http://truth-reason-liberty.blogspot.com/2012/01/call-for-international-week-of-action.html

dohball
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Jan 8 2012 22:44

BJJ said

Quote:
For the record I don't hate all students I just think basing anarchist organising and activism in an unreliable bunch of people, many of whom don't work and come from the more priviledged parts of society compared to the average person is not a very good idea.

Also I think uni can be the time in their life to get into radical politics drink heavily then fuck off and get a nice comfy job and look back on the old crazy days etc.

I don't think that BJJ's concerns can just be dismissed. esp what i put in bold...
I have seen people who come from better off backgrounds get involved in anarchist /radical politics and then quit to devote themselves to work that gives them the same standard of living that they grew up with and that they find it hard to do without. and frankly it pisses me off.

that said i have also seen people from poorer backgrounds justify their selfish pursuit of wealth and 'a better life for my children' on their earlier deprivations...and that pisses me off too.
and know people from wealthier backgrounds who get no support but instead lots of stick from their parents and have long ago abandoned any hope of any lucrative employment and certainly arn't co-operating with business as usual and are also fucking amazing people.

also people from a variety of backgrounds do go into further education, including university tho i guess those opportunities are maybe closing down again a bit?

also class isn't the only thing at play in making peoples lives difficult or more or less comparatively priviliged. eg race, gender, being sectioned, having been abused as a child, economic state of yr home country, being LGBTQ/queer come to mind..
in general what shapes how likely someone is to be against the system seems to be pretty varied and complex in my observation.

also as you get older and maybe more tired, have more health problems or when you have kids it is also harder to find the energy to put into anything outside of managing yr own life in terms of work, personal relationships, bit of space to yourself doing something you enjoy etc. and that covers people from all 'walks of life' - apart from especially wealthier ones who pay other people to look after their kids etc. so sometimes you just got to cut people a bit of slack.

find people who you like to do political stuff who are focusing on stuff that fires you up with but also be prepared to be suprised by people who may initially get on yr wick. some people prove to be slow burners. others just remain twats.

besides workplace organising i'v also found some stuff that haringey solidarity network and tottenham residents group do inspiring..
love dohball

vanilla.ice.baby
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Jan 8 2012 22:52
Ed wrote:
BrazillianJiuJitsu1992 wrote:
Why don't anarchists just dress normally and discuss real issues and try practical things to build up a movement?

Well, I don't know about normal but I dress pretty fucking sharp! wink Seriously though, I'd say a lot of anarchists are doing stuff like this but it just goes by unoticed by most people due to the small size of the anarchist movement (especially as there's more mileage in a 'baby-eating anarchist' newspaper article than an 'anarchist workplace organiser' one!)..

I can't speak in general, but Solfed have had all sorts of successes recently, like the Office Angels campaign, a more recent one at the Hartley pub and we supported some IWW cleaners at Brunel Uni. Not to mention the successes had by a member working on the London Underground.

So yeah, anarchists do get around and do things other than smashing shop windows and wearing black, but it might be harder to get hold of info about that sort of thing..

Spot on in every point

radicalgraffiti
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Jan 8 2012 22:58
dohball wrote:
BJJ said
Quote:
For the record I don't hate all students I just think basing anarchist organising and activism in an unreliable bunch of people, many of whom don't work and come from the more priviledged parts of society compared to the average person is not a very good idea.

....

I don't think that BJJ's concerns can just be dismissed. esp what i put in bold...

which anarchist organisations do this?

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Arbeiten
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Jan 8 2012 22:59

honestly this student thing is beyond a joke. Literally millions of people have gone through Higher Ed. If you want any sort of mass movement, in all likely hood it is going to include 1 or 2 who have gone to university. Going to university does not make you middle class. Many students have shitty working class jobs whih are super-exploitative. When I was at uni I did not get minimum wage for my first job and the boss lied about what age the higher minimum wage started at.

Also, this business of 'do anarchism in college then fuck off and get a good job'. Well, no. The jobs arn't there right now, not one graduate I know has a 'good middle class job'. You can find the exact statistics on the internet of how many grads actually get a job, let alone a good job, and I can tell you, it isn't a lot.

This comparison to the SWP is a load of bollocks too. Neither SolFed nor AFed actively recruit students like the SWP do.

That said. There is a point to be made about dressing up in black, smashing shit, etc, etc (not an original point mind, there must be about 500,000 words written on this in the libcom forums).

B.J.J Your posts are self undermining. You say 'anarchists need to do x' (which I agree with actually), but then immediately follow it with 'well I can't be bothered'. Thats not anarchism is it 'guys come do some anarchies in my neighbourhood please because I can't be assed'.

N.B You can fuck right off with the estate nonsense, I spent the first twenty years of my life on housing estates. Now I rent a room for piles and piles of money.

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BrazillianJiuJi...
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Jan 8 2012 23:10
action_now wrote:
people wouldn't work with people in a mutually beneficial project because they happened to be students? jeez, what morons.

looks like you really need to get out more if you reckon all students are 'middle class tossers'.

While alot of students may be working class my point is basing a groups membership and aiming the groups agitating at students is a crap idea and won't lead to a real workers movement.

Not that groupos intend to get a student base nessecarily but whenever I have seen anarchists at rallies occupations etc and talking to them online etc a large portion seem to be students and not really class struggle anarchists but lifestylists who champion one identity politic and wrap it in anarchism, like alot of middle class squatters seem to do and class it as revolutionary when working people can't afford to go live outside capitalism.

The only anarchists I have met that are working class and not the spiritual or animal liberation kind was one dude and some homeless guys at the trafalgar occupation and they were not nessecarily anarchists in the sense they understood the economic system anarchists want in a coherant way but clearly understood the state was oppressive and were against capitalism in a very basic way, they also supported the IRA though so probs wouldnt be talked to nicely on these forums.

The posh cunts "running " the occupation kept moaning about them drinking near the tents and telling the wierd jewish woman giving out leaflets to fuck off. I am pretty sure the ronan guy who felt it was his baby was a student or ex student hes probably on this forum he was a right twat.

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Jan 8 2012 23:17
Arbeiten wrote:
honestly this student thing is beyond a joke. Literally millions of people have gone through Higher Ed. If you want any sort of mass movement, in all likely hood it is going to include 1 or 2 who have gone to university. Going to university does not make you middle class. Many students have shitty working class jobs whih are super-exploitative. When I was at uni I did not get minimum wage for my first job and the boss lied about what age the higher minimum wage started at.

Also, this business of 'do anarchism in college then fuck off and get a good job'. Well, no. The jobs arn't there right now, not one graduate I know has a 'good middle class job'. You can find the exact statistics on the internet of how many grads actually get a job, let alone a good job, and I can tell you, it isn't a lot.

This comparison to the SWP is a load of bollocks too. Neither SolFed nor AFed actively recruit students like the SWP do.

That said. There is a point to be made about dressing up in black, smashing shit, etc, etc (not an original point mind, there must be about 500,000 words written on this in the libcom forums).

B.J.J Your posts are self undermining. You say 'anarchists need to do x' (which I agree with actually), but then immediately follow it with 'well I can't be bothered'. Thats not anarchism is it 'guys come do some anarchies in my neighbourhood please because I can't be assed'.

N.B You can fuck right off with the estate nonsense, I spent the first twenty years of my life on housing estates. Now I rent a room for piles and piles of money.

I am not against students joining groups or against students in principle the girl im boinking is at college smile

I am against their being an overwhelming student presence in a working class movement which there is and which i really do feel puts working people and especially working/lumpen/unemployed youth off ever accepting a group from establishing a connection with a community even if it did good organising in it.

You rent a room for piles and piles of money? how many piles we talking?

Also I am hoping to do the things I said and try and start something where I live, if you must know I think the lumpen have the most potential in my area but am kinda nervous about trying to do something as I changed my life and got out of alot of stupid shit I was doing and I am a bit nervous about getting back into old circles etc if you must know.

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BrazillianJiuJi...
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Jan 8 2012 23:27
wojtek wrote:
Quote:
BJJ wrote:
whatever no one round here would have anything to do with a group in the area if it had students in it.

So if students (background aside for a moment) wanted to beef up you picket line or help you get your wages back ala Office Angels, you'd send them packing?! I bet you the vast majority of people wouldn't!

Anyway, listen from 2:35 - 3:40 minutes...

As Ill Bill said, we're all students! And if you're looking for prole credentials, he grew up in the projects in Brooklyn, so he trumps you. tongue

Quote:
BJJ wrote:
ED can you recomend any practical thing to do?

I know it's in March, but you and your friends could get involved with this, show solidarity with TEH REAL PROLEZ:

http://truth-reason-liberty.blogspot.com/2012/01/call-for-international-week-of-action.html

LOL aint they the group that rap about violently killing "faggots" and praising allah

Allah can suck my saggy ball sack and so can ill bill, ps I confess JMT is good for doing heavy weights to.

Also this is a serious question, whats the point in like day of action etc shouldnt I try doing something like organising an unemployed union or something actually making a lasting impact and trying to unite people in numbers no matter how small at the start than protesting for a day that has no impact on workplace action or helps to organise people who live together all the time etc.

Like protests and things people get together for a day protest but shouldnt i focus on organising on where i live with people I know so i can continuously try and build rather than meet for a day with other people then go home and there be no network at all.

action_now
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Jan 8 2012 23:23
BrazillianJiuJitsu1992 wrote:
I am pretty sure the ronan guy who felt it was his baby was a student or ex student hes probably on this forum he was a right twat.

haha!

dohball
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Jan 8 2012 23:28

@ radical graf i'm not thinking of organisations with explicitly anarchist politics like the anarchist federation but of some campaigns, projects or groups that have attracted people who are into/identify/are drawn to anarchist politics. i'm sorry but i don't want to be more specific. i don't want to badmouth any of those groups of people/situations that have come to mind and i wouldn't say that what they did/engaged with was a waste of time but actually some of it was useful both potentially/ a bit for society at large and certainly for individuals involved.

more what i am trying to say is that i feel some empathy with BJJ's frustrations. i agree with many who post on libcom that across the divisions of what get called the middle class and working class we actually have more in common and it is in our interests to transcend those divisions and make common struggle together.
but i think it is a mistake to ignore the difficulties and or limitations that arise when projects are comprised soley or by a majority of people who are from comfortably off backgrounds. it would be better to try and address them constructively instead of sweeping them under the carpet.

also as i hope the rest of my post indicates my concerns are more about peoples energies and projects and radical movement as a whole getting recuperated into keeping the status quo going due to various pressures which can clearly happen regardless of the class background of the indivduals/ groups concerned... ok libcommed out gonna have a beer, all the best dohball x

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Jan 8 2012 23:27
action_now wrote:
BrazillianJiuJitsu1992 wrote:
I am pretty sure the ronan guy who felt it was his baby was a student or ex student hes probably on this forum he was a right twat.

haha!

If your him that answers alot lol

action_now
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Jan 8 2012 23:29

soz to disappoint bro.

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Arbeiten
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Jan 8 2012 23:30
BrazillianJiuJitsu1992 wrote:

You rent a room for piles and piles of money? how many piles we talking?

Also I am hoping to do the things I said and try and start something where I live, if you must know I think the lumpen have the most potential in my area but am kinda nervous about trying to do something as I changed my life and got out of alot of stupid shit I was doing and I am a bit nervous about getting back into old circles etc if you must know.

I pay 420 a month, why do you want to know that eek ? (I know it is not a lot, but relative to my income it bites quite the hole into my bank account every month).

I hope you arn't going to call them 'lumpen' to their face right wink. Using german words to describe people is pretty boojie. I remember reading a while ago about a Class War guy starting an unemployed workers union in salford back in the day. I am sure people here have more information on that, but you might want to take a look.

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BrazillianJiuJi...
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Jan 8 2012 23:31
action_now wrote:
soz to disappoint bro.

Wow could cut the sexual tension with a knife.

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Jan 8 2012 23:36
Arbeiten wrote:
BrazillianJiuJitsu1992 wrote:

You rent a room for piles and piles of money? how many piles we talking?

Also I am hoping to do the things I said and try and start something where I live, if you must know I think the lumpen have the most potential in my area but am kinda nervous about trying to do something as I changed my life and got out of alot of stupid shit I was doing and I am a bit nervous about getting back into old circles etc if you must know.

I pay 420 a month, why do you want to know that eek ? (I know it is not a lot, but relative to my income it bites quite the hole into my bank account every month).

I hope you arn't going to call them 'lumpen' to their face right wink. Using german words to describe people is pretty boojie. I remember reading a while ago about a Class War guy starting an unemployed workers union in salford back in the day. I am sure people here have more information on that, but you might want to take a look.

I thought you meant like thousands is 420 a pile? like in the films a pile is big man.

LOL i am ex lumpen so I can do it its like the N word and black guys grin

I will look into that sounds cool, I heard some of the crims in salford got involved with class war stuff, which is wierd, extort local people sell drugs then fight for the working class lol.

Also why do you seem like the wise old black morgan freeman of libcom?

action_now
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Jan 8 2012 23:36
BrazillianJiuJitsu1992 wrote:
action_now wrote:
soz to disappoint bro.

Wow could cut the sexual tension with a knife.

i dont go for middle class uni students.

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Jan 8 2012 23:36
action_now wrote:
BrazillianJiuJitsu1992 wrote:
action_now wrote:
soz to disappoint bro.

Wow could cut the sexual tension with a knife.

i dont go for middle class uni students.

Always try new things babu <3

action_now
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Jan 8 2012 23:51

i cant believe kompany was sent off.

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boxtheanok
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Jan 8 2012 23:53

University students are middle class? Do they hold any sort of professional positions because if they dont then they are not middle class. BJJ's silly simplistic view of class falls short, privilege does not determine what side of the barricades you are going to be on just your commitment to keeping your privilege or destroying them. Yes, some workers may find it hard to relate with students but is just the reality of the division caused by capitalism.

Back to the black block. Tommy Ascaso, I understand that is a isolated situation but that still does not mean that black blocs are alienating.

Talking to workerist is going to make me go nuts! wink

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Jan 8 2012 23:56
action_now wrote:
i cant believe kompany was sent off.

he had studs up, mancini even said it was right decision adrian chiles southgat and reid can fuck off, keane knew the deal.

ps your a cunt

wojtek
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Jan 8 2012 23:55
Quote:
BJJ wrote:
LOL aint they the group that rap about violently killing "faggots" and praising allah

Allah can suck my saggy ball sack and so can ill bill, ps I confess JMT is good for doing heavy weights to.

Yeah, they say "faggots", but if it's good rap then the lyrics can be reactionary as fuck for all I care, well up to a point. Vinnie Paz converted to Islam, maybe cos of Tragedy Khaddafy I dunno. It's too authoritarian/ deterministic for my liking but hey, if it stops you from sticking needles in your arms...

action_now
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Jan 8 2012 23:59
BrazillianJiuJitsu1992 wrote:
action_now wrote:
i cant believe kompany was sent off.

he had studs up, manchini eveb said it was right decision adrian chiles southgat and reid can fuck off, keane knew the deal.

ps your a cunt

studs up? feet were still basically on the ground. he got the ball with one foot and shifted it to the over. nani didnt even protest. was a decent tackle.

and stop being sexist babe, itll make you look bad.

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Jan 9 2012 00:01
wojtek wrote:
Quote:
BJJ wrote:
LOL aint they the group that rap about violently killing "faggots" and praising allah

Allah can suck my saggy ball sack and so can ill bill, ps I confess JMT is good for doing heavy weights to.

Yeah, they say "faggots", but if it's good rap then the lyrics can be reactionary as fuck for all I care, well up to a point. Vinnie Paz converted to Islam, maybe cos of Tragedy Khaddafy I dunno. It's too authoritarian/ deterministic for my liking but hey, if it stops you from sticking needles in your arms...

Im a swordsman, the apocalypse horseman, what makes me smile is anothers misfortune

EPIC vinnie paz got skills, makes me laugh how most communists who say they like rap only listen to immortal technique and lowkey and are complete nerds haha

you like akala his fire in the booth was best one yet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEOKgjoxoto

He dosent give that fat cunt charlie sloth the chance to ruin it with sound effects.

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boxtheanok
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Jan 9 2012 00:00

wait was this always in libcommunity or was it moved? If so I dont blame the admin

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Jan 9 2012 00:03
BrazillianJiuJitsu1992 wrote:
wojtek wrote:
Quote:
BJJ wrote:
LOL aint they the group that rap about violently killing "faggots" and praising allah

Allah can suck my saggy ball sack and so can ill bill, ps I confess JMT is good for doing heavy weights to.

Yeah, they say "faggots", but if it's good rap then the lyrics can be reactionary as fuck for all I care, well up to a point. Vinnie Paz converted to Islam, maybe cos of Tragedy Khaddafy I dunno. It's too authoritarian/ deterministic for my liking but hey, if it stops you from sticking needles in your arms...

Im a swordsman, the apocalypse horseman, what makes me smile is anothers misfortune

EPIC vinnie paz got skills, makes me laugh how most communists who say they like rap only listen to immortal technique and lowkey and are complete nerds haha

you like akala his fire in the booth was best one yet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEOKgjoxoto

He dosent give that fat cunt charlie sloth the chance to ruin it with sound effects.

Kompany didnt protest though did he u prick

also u cant pick n choose which studs up sissor tackles to send off you have tos end em off everytime ps saying well so and so did the same and only got booked doesnt mean that should have happened.

oops sorry wrong person

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Jan 9 2012 00:04
action_now wrote:
BrazillianJiuJitsu1992 wrote:
action_now wrote:
i cant believe kompany was sent off.

he had studs up, manchini eveb said it was right decision adrian chiles southgat and reid can fuck off, keane knew the deal.

ps your a cunt

studs up? feet were still basically on the ground. he got the ball with one foot and shifted it to the over. nani didnt even protest. was a decent tackle.

and stop being sexist babe, itll make you look bad.

Kompany didnt protest though did he u prick

also u cant pick n choose which studs up sissor tackles to send off you have tos end em off everytime ps saying well so and so did the same and only got booked doesnt mean that should have happened.

.

action_now
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Jan 9 2012 00:10

it's people like you that are ruining football with your middle class pc brigade.

and kompany's too classy to moan, leave that to the rooneys of the world.

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Jan 9 2012 00:07
BrazillianJiuJitsu1992 wrote:
action_now wrote:
soz to disappoint bro.

Wow could cut the sexual tension with a knife.

So lets talk about football

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Jan 9 2012 00:17
action_now wrote:
it's people like you that are ruining football with your middle class pc brigade.

and kompany's too classy to moan, leave that to the rooneys of the world.

LOL fuck off you scumbag fucking city fan, its funny how the city crowd were silent for such a large portion of the match, fucking gloryhunting scum, make me sick.

I wonder how many of them fans were singing when city were out of the top division huh, buying success well done your team is the cunt of the premier league.

action_now
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Jan 9 2012 00:17

i dont support city.

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