Scottish Independence Referendum

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astonished
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Mar 1 2008 21:34

If you read over this thread, it is thoroughly amazing the amount of anti-scottish feeling you find. Quite blatant really from attacks on people's mental health (to atttack their views) to clearly inadequate economic arguments and haggis type attacks.

From inaccurate economics to blatant racism. Sometimes hidden behind 'humour' (didn't they do that to the Irish and Black to dehumanise them too? )

What we found in Scotland in the Thatcher era was that, although there was not one single Tory left voted into Parliament from Scotland, we still got Tory policies. There was a built-in majority in England, who were voting Tory incessantly. Therefore, as matter of democracy, however flawed, we wished to have a more local form. For example, we do not wish to have Faslane 40 miles from Glasgow - do you London people want it 40 miles from you? We do not wish to invade Iraq or Afghanistan. I think we have some genuine grievances against the UK government. I can't offer an anarchist solution any time soon, but can you in England?

If you think that the right wing press is correct in sayng that you are subsidising us, then call for Scottish independence. I think we would be able to support the left better in England , wales etc that way anyway.

astonished
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Mar 1 2008 22:07

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Do you think it is as easy to wrest power from a centralised national government as it is a devolved local one? You want everything all in one step. That never, ever works.

Devolution and the increasingly diffuse nature of the way in which political power is exercised in the UK has actually strengthened the hand of the state, and effectively centralised power more efficiently than ever.

reply Email this page quote Devrim "Enternasyonalist Komünist Sol"
Posts: 2639 Joined: 15-07-06 Send pm
16 October, 2007 - 13:33

Dundee_United wrote:
but i wouldn't underestimate the influence these sorts of initiatives could have if strategically minded anarchists were so inclined to get involved in them and pursue tactics more likely to lead to a mass base for them.

All of the problems with 'Platformism' as it exists today are here. The actual content of the movement is ignored whist the idea of appealing to a 'mass base', and getting 'influence' take over.

Devrim

reply Email this page quote Dundee_United "Paradise is Norway"
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16 October, 2007 - 14:52

Quote:
All of the problems with 'Platformism' as it exists today are here. The actual content of the movement is ignored whist the idea of appealing to a 'mass base', and getting 'influence' take over.

See the clause you occluded fae that sentence, the one that was critical to the meaning of the whole sentence, well it read eminently clearly...

"I'm not advocating anyone do that"

Please don't deliberately take things out of context. It's a bit silly really. if you want to have an argument with me, then do so, but if you just want to tilt at windmills go on right ahead.

reply Email this page quote welshboy "...a stain upon the heroic history of anarchism."
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16 October, 2007 - 15:49
Naw he dae talk like that, he's frae Dundee. I dinnae talk like this at aw.

reply Email this page quote Devrim "Enternasyonalist Komünist Sol"
Posts: 2639 Joined: 15-07-06 Send pm
16 October, 2007 - 16:41
The sentence runs like this:

Dundee_United wrote:
I'm not advocating anyone do that, but i wouldn't underestimate the influence these sorts of initiatives could have if strategically minded anarchists were so inclined to get involved in them and pursue tactics more likely to lead to a mass base for them.

Yes, I used the bit I wanted for effect. I don't think it makes any difference like this. The point still stands.
Devrim

reply Email this page quote Dundee_United "Paradise is Norway"
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16 October, 2007 - 18:37

Quote:
The point still stands.

i don't think it does. How does saying that with an effective strategy a referendum campaign might gain a mass base and bring about its objective quicker equate to your statement that I have in any way advocated that?

reply Email this page quote Bodach gun bhrigh "banned"
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14 November, 2007 - 21:22

welshboy wrote:
Naw he dae talk like that, he's frae Dundee. I dinnae talk like this at aw.

That's cause you're bloody Welsh! Jeez, have some self-awareness man!

reply Email this page quote Bodach gun bhrigh "banned"
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14 November, 2007 - 21:53

Alan wrote:
Bodach gun bhrigh wrote:
5. One of the reasons for having Scottish devolution/independence is to allow greater representation of the linguistic/cultural diversity present within Scotland.

Who was it who said "when I hear the word 'culture' I reach for my pistol"? It's near meaningless word deployed by every twobit national liberationist politician to justify their irrational kneejerk abstracts. So explain Bodach:

-What "cultural diversity" is there in Scotland? Some people like the Highland Games and some like heroin?

-How would attempting to homogenise this hugely creative, diverse and fascinating (and never whingeing, bitter or irritating) people (sorry, peoples) under the banner of a nation state facilitate sabre tossing and needle using?

EDIT: Btw I'm joking about Scots before anyone accuses me of being a racist or anything. I'm sure Bodach, Dundee etc can differentiate between themselves and Scottish immigrants to England who seem to mainly complain about how shit England is cos the temperature goes above 5 degrees. Is that what Bodach means by "cultural diversity", some complain in Glasgee and some in Lunnon?

I dunno, some countries have cultures distinct from English culture. We're not all the same everywhere. I mean, I could repeat this sentence in Gaidhlig, B'urrainn dhomh an seantans seo ath-labhairt ann an Gaidhlig, and you wouldn't have a clue what I was on about would you? Bourdieu reckoned that languages constitute a physical nexus for their speakers, in that the physical effects of speaking a certain language influence your cultural outlook. I also reckon different languages do change the way people think. And also, because Gaelic and pre-Gaelic Celtic Pictish languages have been spoken in Scotland for at least the last 3000 years, then that represents a form of cultural continuity that has existed for that length of time, and at the same time influenced the cultural make up of Scottish individuals and communities, This has had an effect on both the cultural and physical landscape and so creates the idea that some people have that they might be different from Londoners. Although looking from London it might appear differently. Basically, people are different, and forcing people to be the same as the English, which basically is what the English are good at, creates physical and mental distress in the subjugated population. Which is possibly why Scottish kids are so fucked up, taught English in schools, courts, taught to hate themselves and all their cultural impulses, from a Scottish perspective, wanting to change Capitalism is tied up with wanting to escape the sense of self-loathing many feel for being Scottish. If people want to be cunts about Scottish people just cause they're English anarchists and reckon the colonials need to be told what to do then that's fine but most of the people on these boards are not anarchists, not in any meaningful sense anyway. Anarchism is about personal and collective liberation, which in a Scottish context means Scottish independence. What most of the posters on these boards subscribe to is a kind of internationalist Stalinism, where the word revolution is used as a means of quashing all attempts at actually improving the lot of people's lives. It's like the anarchists in Spain in 34, don't vote, cause the revolution will come, and what happens, the fascists get in. Anarchism if it's going to have any meaningful impact outside a few apoplectic internet posters must be about the possible, rather than aiming for the impossible and blaming everyone else who aims for the possible as either not seeing the big picture man, i.e. not having sufficient faith, or as nuts, as fuckwad revol likes to put it.

reply Email this page quote Bodach gun bhrigh "banned"
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14 November, 2007 - 22:04
Although I am going nuts, as revol so aptly put it, reduction in meds means schizo bodach time! Oh the japes, the japes! The dribbling in public places, the enhanced libido! Damn sane people and their boring ways! Damn them to hell, to bloody hell!

reply Email this page quote revol68 "has risked just as much as anyone of his generation in politics...."
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15 November, 2007 - 00:14
They're coming...

reply Email this page quote Devrim "Enternasyonalist Komünist Sol"
Posts: 2639 Joined: 15-07-06 Send pm
15 November, 2007 - 05:49

Bodach gun bhrigh wrote:
Bourdieu reckoned that languages constitute a physical nexus for their speakers, in that the physical effects of speaking a certain language influence your cultural outlook. I also reckon different languages do change the way people think. And also, because Gaelic and pre-Gaelic Celtic Pictish languages have been spoken in Scotland for at least the last 3000 years, then that represents a form of cultural continuity that has existed for that length of time, and at the same time influenced the cultural make up of Scottish individuals and communities, This has had an effect on both the cultural and physical landscape and so creates the idea that some people have that they might be different from Londoners. Although looking from London it might appear differently. Basically, people are different, and forcing people to be the same as the English, which basically is what the English are good at, creates physical and mental distress in the subjugated population. Which is possibly why Scottish kids are so fucked up, taught English in schools, courts, taught to hate themselves and all their cultural impulses, from a Scottish perspective, wanting to change Capitalism is tied up with wanting to escape the sense of self-loathing many feel for being Scottish...Anarchism is about personal and collective liberation, which in a Scottish context means Scottish independence.

This is really disgusting reactionary nationalism. I would suggest you find a far right board to post this sort of thing on.

Devrim

reply Email this page quote Dundee_United "Paradise is Norway"
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16 November, 2007 - 12:25

Quote:
This is really disgusting reactionary nationalism. I would suggest you find a far right board to post this sort of thing on.

I don't think the part you quoted is particularly left wing or right wing - although I think it is largely lacking in any evidencial foundation. The fact that you are capable of communicating your ideas perfectly well on here as a Turkish left communist speaking in an English language forum is kind of proof enough that such a tack is stretching reality a bit. It's just a bit of a pessimistic view of epistemeology, and getting close to the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. I've seen that kind of thinking been used to justify nationalism, and certainly such views were the intellectual birthing pool of Nazism in particular, but I've also seen them used to advocate that states are wholly inappropriate and that a decentralised socialism is the only way of protecting the cultural and linguistic commonwealth of humanity from forces that are seen to be homogenising and destructive for artistic and cultural creation. And in that last part - the hegemony of certain world languages and what they have done to render many linguo-cultural artefacts unintelligible, there is at least an element of truth.

During Kenneth MacAlpine's protracted and ultimately successful campaign to conquer the picts, he installed a series of Gaelic Lords in place of Pictish ones. So around the Carse of Gowrie (one of my favourite places) there are place names in Norman French, mediaeval Scots, Gaelic, and Pictish. Throughout the area there are Pictstanes (standing stones with graphical representations). Nobody really knows or understands the significance of these artefacts, because Pictish as a language was crushed following MacAlpine's conquest. It's always fascinated writers and poets, and it feels a little fey that the people who lived in this area where many of us live now will perhaps never been fully understood. Nobody now knows whether Pictish as a language was Brythonic Celtic, or merely influenced by Brythonic Celtic, or whether the Picts adopted Brythonic Celtic. It's also unknown whether these Pictstanes (may of which are elaborately detailed) actually represent a form of writing, or whether they are just nice drawings. Now there are no 'Picts' left floating about. There is no Pictish nation. There is no Pictish people. There is no Pictish nationalism (well apart from Robbie! ). It's still a bit of a shame that in an area where I grew up, which has changed very little in the millenia or so that separates us, I'm not able to appreciate what folks went before, whereas I can with other peoples whose languages and cultural artefacts can be interpreted, even if they lived much longer ago. That sort of thing is happening right now, in lots of places and languages and cultures die out due to the growth of world languages and the cultural package of late modern capitalism. Now that's hardly the most pressing problem out there, but it's still not great.

reply Email this page quote revol68 "has risked just as much as anyone of his generation in politics...."
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16 November, 2007 - 19:03
Dundee if you can't how that shit is reactionary rigjht wing bollox you need your head examined.

reply Email this page quote 300in1
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18 November, 2007 - 15:28
Devrim and revol68, while Dundee and Bodach gun bhrigh are undoubtedly reactionary in this respect, their reasoning cannot be called fascistic. In fact Dundee was merely expressing, I think, a feeling of dispossession of the history which has led up to his home. That kind of history has certainly been seized upon by fascists, but most definitely not in the name of keeping that alive and preserving its variety from that of other regions.

A case in point is the fraktur script that is now associated by many with Nazism. It was used by the NSDAP as one of many tools to saturate German life which things which were supposedly exclusively German, but in 1944, it was abruptly discontinued in all official materials on Hitler's orders, because apparently it had its roots with a Jew. It didn't matter that it actually was a German hallmark, because it directly contradicted the largely false national image that the NSDAP had conjured up to keep its power.

At the end of the day, there have been many left-wing revolutions which have roots in petty nationalism and I regard that to be completely, 100% OK for most socialists, including anarchists. It is reactionary, because to large extent, our different cultures have been pushed on us by the ruling class, but unlike raw naked capitalism, you can't take it away. It is a process, at the top of which, is the present moment. The cultures which persist right now, like getting your groceries from the local shop, having this or that tradition at the village fair, farming this or fishing for that and so on - they are the real stuff of petty nationalism and they are the things which change from place to place. They are also a strong motivator for highly decentralised government. This does not conflict with anarchist theory.

Before you start: Socialism depends on a breaking down of barriers which divide the working class and indeed, ultimately, everyone. However, taking away the divisive state border does not mean that petty nationalist issues are gone, because they are not caused by the state, they are actively discouraged by the state, which wishes to draw support for its own nationalism.

reply Email this page quote afraser
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22 November, 2007 - 01:24
300in1 - That's all interesting enough, but - "the NSDAP" ? That's the Nazi party to you and me. Why use that uncommon acronym for them?

reply Email this page quote Bodach gun bhrigh "banned"
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21 December, 2007 - 21:43

Devrim wrote:

This is really disgusting reactionary nationalism. I would suggest you find a far right board to post this sort of thing on.

Devrim

Really? I mean, really? For a self-professed fan of lenin I reckon you'd have enough ethical problems without condemning cultural self-assertion. In short, I'm not in favour of killing anyone, I just fancy the idea of Scottish independence. Primarily cause it would get us away from the insane politics of British Nationalism, and the fascism/racism that has been evident in British mainstream politics for the last 30 years. That might not change, but you can't fault a nation for trying. I mean, I'd really rather go for Social Democracy up here if it meant an end to Thatcherism, and the possibility of having sane political debate rather than the endless scapegoating of every conceivable ethnic/sexual/physical/disability minority that we've had during my entire lifetime. I mean looking round Glasgow just now you could be forgiven for thinking we were living under fascism, which we pretty much are, in a way...

(meaning the Labour party, not the glorious SNP)

reply Email this page quote Devrim "Enternasyonalist Komünist Sol"
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22 December, 2007 - 06:39

Quote:
Really? I mean, really? For a self-professed fan of lenin I reckon you'd have enough ethical problems.

Really, please give one example of the ethical problems that my being 'a self-professed fan of lenin' entails.

Quote:
without condemning cultural self-assertion

The stuff that you were spouting reminded me of the same sort of mystical nonsense that the ultra nationalists spout.

Quote:
but you can't fault a nation for trying.

We are communists. We don't look to the nation. We look to the working class.

Devrim

reply Email this page quote jambo1 "anarchy in the far north?"
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22 December, 2007 - 09:19
having been involved many years ago in a very minor way with the snp, i would urge everyone to treat them the same as all other political parties here in the u.k. they are a shower of twats the same as labour etc. having been to a branch meeting before all sorts of people gravitate to them because of the independence angle. i saw trots, greens and bitter nationalistic people who make the bnp seem tame. thankfully i dropped the party,put it down to a bit of youthful naivety! dont look to the snp to be the saviours of an independant scotland.

reply Email this page quote Devrim "Enternasyonalist Komünist Sol"
Posts: 2639 Joined: 15-07-06 Send pm
22 December, 2007 - 09:34

jambo1 wrote:
dont look to the snp to be the saviours of an independant scotland

I am sure that you are very right about your experience of the SNP. There is another question though. Is the problem with the SNP the fact that they are 'the same as all other political parties here in the u.k. they are a shower of twats the same as labour'? Does this suggest that there could be a 'better' national independence party? Is they actually idea of 'national independence' a problem in itself?

Devrim

reply Email this page quote jambo1 "anarchy in the far north?"
Posts: 150 Joined: 02-06-07 Location: invergordon, ross-shire Send pm
22 December, 2007 - 10:15
no ,i dont think there could be a better independence party, to me the whole idea of independence is a problem. i dont believe it is the answer to any problem that scotland has. i think independence tends to bring the fascist out in people! some of the rubbish that is spouted by people when you talk about independence is seriously fascistic i find. you get ordinary people taking out their problems on other people/races etc. the anti english guff that is spouted is unreal.

reply Email this page quote Boulcolonialboy "the clear concrete"
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23 December, 2007 - 18:38

jambo1 wrote:
no ,i dont think there could be a better independence party, to me the whole idea of independence is a problem. i dont believe it is the answer to any problem that scotland has. i think independence tends to bring the fascist out in people! some of the rubbish that is spouted by people when you talk about independence is seriously fascistic i find. you get ordinary people taking out their problems on other people/races etc. the anti english guff that is spouted is unreal.

Hey jambo1 watch Bodach gun bhrigh doesn't accuse you of being Orange rather than Red/Red n Black on that - it all sounds too much like part of the Orange/Prod conspiracy y'know

Especially being anti "anti english guff".

reply Email this page quote jambo1 "anarchy in the far north?"
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24 December, 2007 - 09:57
,indeed it might! but as anarchists we should not be worrying about the party politics of independence. plus me having an ulster/scots surname and numerous english relatives makes me very wary of the snp line of tartan and heather crap that gets spouted.

reply Email this page quote welshboy "...a stain upon the heroic history of anarchism."
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3 January, 2008 - 19:38
I always used to support independence because I thought it would be funny if it happened.
However Bodach made a good point (in real life) that should Scotland attain independence from west minster then Scots would have to stop blaming everything on "the English/Sansenachs" and look closer to home for the source of all their woes.

reply Email this page quote Dundee_United "Paradise is Norway"
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5 January, 2008 - 23:05

Quote:
I always used to support independence because I thought it would be funny if it happened.
However Bodach made a good point (in real life) that should Scotland attain independence from west minster then Scots would have to stop blaming everything on "the English/Sansenachs" and look closer to home for the source of all their woes.

I think if independence happened the new national social democrat government would round up all the English and hold pogroms for all indigenous Pictish people. You have no idea how dangerous your narrow minded views are on this question Welshboy!

reply Email this page quote welshboy "...a stain upon the heroic history of anarchism."
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6 January, 2008 - 16:13
oo-er missus

reply Email this page quote Dundee_United "Paradise is Norway"
Posts: 994 Joined: 10-04-06 Location: Glasgow Send pm
17 January, 2008 - 12:58

Quote:
oo-er missus

A base excuse for reformist nationalist union-ery if ever I saw one! Admit it you're a cunt and you love Stalin and Wayne Price!!!!

reply Email this page quote welshboy "...a stain upon the heroic history of anarchism."
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18 January, 2008 - 08:34
Okay I own up. I'm an Uncle Joe fetishist.
*runs away in shame*

reply Email this page quote astonished
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1 March, 2008 - 21:34
If you read over this thread, it is thoroughly amazing the amount of anti-scottish feeling you find. Quite blatant really from attacks on people's mental health (to atttack their views) to clearly inadequate economic arguments and haggis type attacks.

From inaccurate economics to blatant racism. Sometimes hidden behind 'humour' (didn't they do that to the Irish and Black to dehumanise them too? )

What we found in Scotland in the Thatcher era was that, although there was not one single Tory left voted into Parliament from Scotland, we still got Tory policies. There was a built-in majority in England, who were voting Tory incessantly. Therefore, as matter of democracy, however flawed, we wished to have a more local form. For example, we do not wish to have Faslane 40 miles from Glasgow - do you London people want it 40 miles from you? We do not wish to invade Iraq or Afghanistan. I think we have some genuine grievances against the UK government. I can't offer an anarchist solution any time soon, but can you in England?

If you think that the right wing press is correct in sayng that you are subsidising us, then call for Scottish independence. I think we would be able to support the left better in England , wales etc that way anyway.

astonished
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Mar 8 2008 21:51

Haha is that the best you can do, Larne loyalist (even your own call you that).Tame. See you later British State...

Deezer
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Mar 9 2008 23:19

Haha, I see you havnae answered any of my questions on the anti-Scottish racism thread you started. Who has refered to revol as "Larne loyalist"?

Yer certainly coming across as a wee bit mental.

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jambo1
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Mar 10 2008 06:43

astonished what are you up to? you start a thread about racism and take no more to do with it and now start back on this thread which was pretty dead until you start stirring it up again!! just drop it or come back with something a bit more substantial rather than name calling.