Scottish Independence Referendum

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Dundee_United
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Oct 11 2007 19:51
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Btw I'm joking about Scots before anyone accuses me of being a racist or anything.

Already laughing my tits off... eek

Caiman del Barrio
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Oct 11 2007 19:54

See, the thing is, and yeah I'm gonna talk about Mexico, cos there's a couple of NL movements over here, culture means fuckall on its own. The main reason for the Zapatista uprising was cos NAFTA removed the legal condition for people to own the land they farmed, which basically opened the door for all sorts of investors to turf a whole bunch of indigenous people off their subsistence farms. Of course, there's a long long long history (more years than myths about William Wallace in fact) of this sort of existence for indigenous peoples, and therefore it is a sort of culture. However in real terms, the right to own your land is profoundly economic and talk of "culture" and "regional identity" in those terms serves to mystify and therefore it's completely reactionary. The problem isn't that it's gringos stealing the land, the problem is that they're losing their land.

Caiman del Barrio
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Oct 11 2007 19:56
Dundee_United wrote:
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Btw I'm joking about Scots before anyone accuses me of being a racist or anything.

Already laughing my tits off... eek

Don't worry, you can return the favour next time England get knocked out in the latter stages of a tournament that Scotland didn't even get close to qualifying for. C'mon lighten up, it's hardly worse than some of the trash Bodach has posted. I mean, complaining, heroin and bitter football fans is honestly what I think of when people say "Scottish culture".

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Devrim
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Oct 11 2007 20:01
Dundee_United wrote:
An independent Scotland would self-evidently lead to decreased sectarianism, bigotry and racism. That's fairly clear.

Fairly clear to you maybe. Would you mind explaining why for to the rest of us.
Devrim

Caiman del Barrio
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Oct 11 2007 20:04

Also, how ironic that Revol's usage of a poster's mental health problems as an insult is ignored but the moment I mock Bonnie Wee every other ginger cunt finds his kilt? I mean, it's pretty telling really...

Deezer
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Oct 11 2007 20:05

Aye, Highland games or heroin is a worse binary than prods or taigs any day. Course Dundee is only laughing his tits off cos Alan quite aptly quoted Hermann Goring. Must admit I near spat my coffee all over my laptop when I saw that.

Having said that, after a conversation my 8 year old daughter had with me earlier that went: Sean in school asked me if I was a Catholic and I said "no", so he said "are you a prod then?" and I said "no" (accompanied by a isn't he a stupid fucker expression on her wee face, aw) then he said "What, are you a German then?"... She then burst out laughing, "he thinks I'm a German cos I don't believe in god".

But anyway following this conversation she asked "whats culture daddy?", I said "I don't really know love, its usually an excuse for people to do and say really stupid stuff" - response "what, like when Catholics say Protestants don't have any"...

As for Bodach attempting a calmer response to what I've previously posted, well, I'll deal with that in a bit. Suffice to say its based on not reading what I said, forgetting exactly how mental his earlier two posts were and entirely misses the point of my argument. Dundee Utd has picked up on some of this but has still it seems misinterpreted the section he quotes above. More later, if Northern Irish 'prods' are still welcome on the Scottish forum (especially ironic given that sooo many of us across a wee tiny stretch of water even speak the same language and have had the same struggles in promoting and gaining official recognition for it...)

Caiman del Barrio
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Oct 11 2007 20:21

What, so you were genuinely concerned for his welfare? Fuck off...if that's how you approach people who you think are going through serious mental health issues then I think that makes you the punk. Or just some kind of sociopath. To be honest I reckon he was just wound up by some of the stuff said by the anti-independence lobby on this thread (which basically means anyone who isn't Scottish).

Terry
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Oct 11 2007 20:34

Well culture and identity can matter. It can matter if for instance your language is outlawed. Or if you are oppressed in some way, targetted around a definition
based on this or that ethnicity. I'm not familar with Scotland but I havn't heard of any such thing happening there of late, in regard to say Gaelic users, and if such a thing were happening there I suspect either Catholics or new immigrant groups would be its victims. Here, when people, often in other contexts sound enough, blather on about Irish identity and that, it usually means they have an idealised view of "the Irish nation", installed during the De Valera era, and are unhappy when the actual existing population fall short of their standards. Often it seems "Irish" actually means republican to them. For instance commemoration of the Irishmen who served in the crown forces is an attack on Irish identity, anything to do with downgrading the status of Gaelic is an attack on Irish indentity, what games that get played in Croker is an attack on Irish identity, etc...etc...etc...The definition of "Irish" neatly matching their political viewpoint. We need to re-define "Irish" as meaning anarchist-communist (I suppose Captain Moonlight and James Connolly could be cited here), and then describe anything not on those lines as being an attack on Irishness.

Caiman del Barrio
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Oct 11 2007 20:47
revol68 wrote:
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looks like Bodachs having a mental breakdown.

yeah how bang out of order i was.

What the fuck you want me to do about it, phone him up and offer support?

Or perhaps not use someone's mental health problems as fucking leverage. If you can't see what's wrong with that then I wonder how often you spend time with company. I mean, it's pretty fucking obvious no?

Caiman del Barrio
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Oct 11 2007 20:50
Terry wrote:
We need to re-define "Irish" as meaning anarchist-communist (I suppose Captain Moonlight and James Connolly could be cited here), and then describe anything not on those lines as being an attack on Irishness.

But you yourself admit that a coherent, universal "Irishness" does not exist, so why waste your time trying to convince people it does as a means of introducing anarchist communism Trojan Horse style? i mean, do you really think that this is a viable option? Would you say to a Republican waxing lyrical about "Irish culture" that "no, actually Irish culture means destroying the Irish nation state and the international class system"?

Terry
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Oct 11 2007 21:00

Sarcasm, Alan. I'm not taking this thread very seriously.

Caiman del Barrio
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Oct 11 2007 21:15

Fuck...fooled by my own trick.

Dundee_United
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Oct 12 2007 21:38
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the moment I mock Bonnie Wee every other ginger cunt finds his kilt? I mean, it's pretty telling really...

I would barely have enough hair these days to pick up on even if I was ginger. smile lol.

I don't think it's a question of mocking some brig o doon / kailyard construct here Alan, but I think it's a bit rubbish to reduce the cultural diversity of a massive region with 5 million people down to heroin and moaning and mythology. It's a little bit depressing that you would think that way. Have you ever spent any time in Scotland?

To take an example, I studied Scottish literature - a subject you can devote a degree to and one in which a number of academics base their careers around. You couldn't really do that on the back of stories about Archie Gemmel and trainspotting...

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but I havn't heard of any such thing happening there of late

Just for Alan... wink

The educational guidelines requiring teachers to challenge any usage of Scots in primary and secondary schools as 'inappropriate' for the classroom were only revoked in 1992. There are currently no courses running teaching Scots. The BBC and other news media tend to have certain rules about the usage of Scots. For example the teatime BBC Scotland bulletin's editorial guidelines have a 500 word listing of 'approved' non-standard English Scots word lexicon, although grammar must be standard English. That doesn't sound to me like a liberal 'anything goes' attitude at the top. sad (Juest for Alan! ;P)

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jef costello
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Oct 13 2007 01:42

Didn't we already have the oppressed scottish language argument before with bodach descending into anti-prod ranting and then flouncing?

As far as I remember scots is a dialect. Dundee, there are shitloads of regional words in England that don't make it onto the news you don't hear people in Grimsby bitching about that. I'd find it very funny if the news used informal patterns of speech and the slang words I used when I was growing up in London. Except most of the people in the area wouldn't have understood them, let alone further afield. The only stable languages are dead ones Dundee.
Bodach's problem is that he has a very open and exaggerated form of the sadly all-too common belief on the left that: English is a monolithic imperialist culture. Catholics are perenially repressed victims and are therefore better than anyone else. The ranking goes up from Welsh Scots NI Irish to Irish for catholics with all prods being racists.

I could argue that England had welsh and scottish monarchs for a lot of the time Ireland was being conquered so actually the English were helpless tools of imperialism. Of course that would be bollocks too but at least it would be unusual.

Dundee_United
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Oct 13 2007 20:35
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Didn't we already have the oppressed scottish language argument before with bodach descending into anti-prod ranting and then flouncing?

confused confused confused confused

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scots isn't a fucking language, it's a dialect

It is actually five separate dialect groups, several of which can be further separated, which share far more in common with each other than they do with other West Germanic languages.

I'm not unsympathetic to the idea that Scots and English are poles on a dialect continuum; by the same token though so are all the Scandinavian languages, Dutch and Frisian, and even to a certain extent Frisian and Scots and English and Dutch. In any case though modern urban speech patterns in lowland Scotland are certainly very much English dialects which have been influenced by Scots. Urban speech in lowland Scotland is not generally considered to be Scots but perhaps that is less well known in England and further afield. To claim that Scots is 'a dialect' (singular, 'one' dialect) when it is five distinct dialect groups is quite clearly a political argument.

Furthermore given that Scots in written or spoken form is generally not mutually intelligible for most monoglot English speakers makes the whole discussion about whether you are dealing with a language or a dialect a somewhat redundant question. Norwegian (both landsmal and bokmal) , Danish and Swedish are all mutually intelligible. English people however are generally nonplused when they're speirt how for they've sicna trauchle liftin the richt meanin o't fae a body's spikin.

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you're hard on for scots is clearly a product of you being a middle class cunt who fetishes the working class.

Scots isn't spoken in urban areas any longer, and is concentrated solely in rural areas, although many in urban areas can speak and understand it. Hardly prolier-than-thou when we're talking about farmers and fisherman, alongside some members of the rural working class. Your invective on this and your need to continually keep up your ad hominem ranting are really a bit silly and childish.

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Dundee, there are shitloads of regional words in England that don't make it onto the news you don't hear people in Grimsby bitching about that.

Yeah, I think they should be though. I'm not a fan of standardising tendencies in English, or French, or whatever nation-state decides it has to have a standard language. Invariably it doesn't aid communication in due course because it leads to the ridiculous situation that you have monoglot societies that have poor linguistic skills. My point though was the fact that there were some mere 'words' that were deemed acceptable, which divorced of their phonaesthetic, grammatical context are really bloody odd anyway. It's such a pointless addendum and really really patronising. Divnin ye see whitfor it'd gar ye grue???

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Devrim
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Oct 14 2007 06:48

Dundee, First you didn't answer my last question, go back a page. Second, I understand those sentences, and I last went to Scotland about three decades ago, and finally dialects can also be not mutually comprehensible (take Kurdish for example).
Devrim

Dundee_United
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Oct 14 2007 12:19
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Fairly clear to you maybe. Would you mind explaining why for to the rest of us.

Sorry Dev...

Yeah - basically the SNP and nationalists in general are a LOT more inclusive of multiethnic identities and generally fairly anti-racist than those of the unionist parties. It's always sort of part of the package. Liberal minded voters vote SNP because they are anti-racist, anti-sectarian, pro-asylum seekers and against nuclear weapons etc.

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finally dialects can also be not mutually comprehensible (take Kurdish for example).

I know. My point was the discussion of dialect versus language is a political argument, not a question of linguistic difference. If someone was being accurate about Scots though they would say it is a group of five distinct dialect groups, which share most similarity with each other, and that many monoglot English speakers find unintelligible. Anything else is just politics.

Dundee_United
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Oct 14 2007 12:21
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christ i wish you'd be put down.

Can I ask why this kind of comment is being tolerated?

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Devrim
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Oct 14 2007 16:22
Dundee_United wrote:
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Fairly clear to you maybe. Would you mind explaining why for to the rest of us.

Sorry Dev...

Yeah - basically the SNP and nationalists in general are a LOT more inclusive of multiethnic identities and generally fairly anti-racist than those of the unionist parties. It's always sort of part of the package. Liberal minded voters vote SNP because they are anti-racist, anti-sectarian, pro-asylum seekers and against nuclear weapons etc.

I don't think this has any real connection to your claim that:

Dundee_United wrote:
An independent Scotland would self-evidently lead to decreased sectarianism, bigotry and racism. That's fairly clear.

Could you please justify it.

Quote:
I know. My point was the discussion of dialect versus language is a political argument, not a question of linguistic difference. If someone was being accurate about Scots though they would say it is a group of five distinct dialect groups, which share most similarity with each other, and that many monoglot English speakers find unintelligible. Anything else is just politics.

What is a distinct dialect group? I despite not being a Londoner can notices differences in accent between different parts of London. Are they different dialects?

In reality the terms have no scientific meaning whatsoever. For example Turkish, and Azeri are different languages, but are completely mutually comprehensible. On the other hand, I have heard Kurmanji, and Zazaki speakers having to communicate in English as they couldn't understand each other, yet both of these dialects fall other the name of Kurdish.

Devrim

Mike Harman
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Oct 14 2007 16:51
Dundee_United wrote:
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christ i wish you'd be put down.

Can I ask why this kind of comment is being tolerated?

Can I ask why you didn't see fit to tell anyone if you're so bothered? I've just read the last 20 posts on this thread this evening, and deleted that one.

Dundee_United
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Oct 14 2007 23:30
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Can I ask why you didn't see fit to tell anyone if you're so bothered?

And exactly how would it look to go clypin on Revol to admins? The comment was more general anyway, about the kind of comments that get tolerated. Devrim clearly disagrees with me a lot on these forums about a number of subjects. Somehow however he manages to do that without once calling for me to be euthanised. wink

Caiman del Barrio
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Oct 15 2007 05:14
Dundee_United wrote:
I don't think it's a question of mocking some brig o doon / kailyard construct here Alan, but I think it's a bit rubbish to reduce the cultural diversity of a massive region with 5 million people down to heroin and moaning and mythology. It's a little bit depressing that you would think that way. Have you ever spent any time in Scotland?

One night before boarding a plane. Met plenty of Scottish in London though, they're all fuckin whingers like that Sir Alex. Haha nah my point is to talk about culture in such vague terms is basically redundant, especially when you try to superimpose a rather arbitrary regional border on it.

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To take an example, I studied Scottish literature - a subject you can devote a degree to and one in which a number of academics base their careers around. You couldn't really do that on the back of stories about Archie Gemmel and trainspotting...

I study Hispanic Culture, does that make me bolivariano? Or a conquistador?

And besides, I'm sure that if they don't already exist, pretty sure there will be Scottish Contemporary Culture courses which will revolve around football and Irvine Welsh. Well actually probably not cos most cultural studies courses have the most reductionist, frankly bourgeois view of culture (as equating to high culture) and therefore it'll be on some obscure play which noone's seen or something.

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but I havn't heard of any such thing happening there of late

Pretty sure I didn't say that.

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Just for Alan... wink
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The educational guidelines requiring teachers to challenge any usage of Scots in primary and secondary schools as 'inappropriate' for the classroom were only revoked in 1992. There are currently no courses running teaching Scots. The BBC and other news media tend to have certain rules about the usage of Scots. For example the teatime BBC Scotland bulletin's editorial guidelines have a 500 word listing of 'approved' non-standard English Scots word lexicon, although grammar must be standard English. That doesn't sound to me like a liberal 'anything goes' attitude at the top. sad (Juest for Alan! ;P)

The BBC's been relentlessly attacked for excluding all sorts of dialects, like Cockney, Geordie, West Country etc etc. BTW - although I don't think you've done this - it's ridiculous to talk of dialect vs language without understanding the political/nationalist gravity of these debates. I would pull out another quote on this subject but I'm worried it'll be another member of the Nazi Party. I suppose the next logical step for you therefore is to prove to a sceptic like me that Scots (do you mean Gaelic or what?) is actually a living, valid language beyond rather NIMBY-ish revivialist groups.

Dundee_United
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Oct 15 2007 08:36

Erm nae time for a day or two...

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Scots (do you mean Gaelic or what?)

Nah - Scots and Gaelic are not related at all. Scots is West Germanic.

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I suppose the next logical step for you therefore is to prove to a sceptic like me that Scots (do you mean Gaelic or what?) is actually a living, valid language beyond rather NIMBY-ish revivialist groups.

It is pretty fucked to be honest. Outside of the NorthEast and rural areas it's not spoken to any great extent. It also exists on a continuum between heavily Anglicised varieties, to heavily Scots influenced English and so on, with many speakers shifting along that continuum to change register.

Quote:
it's ridiculous to talk of dialect vs language without understanding the political/nationalist gravity of these debates.

Exactly - which is why it is a very political statement to refer to 'the Scots dialect' because it's actually five dialect groups (and in the 19th century was more than that due to Australian Scots and so on).

martinh
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Oct 15 2007 22:29
Dundee_united wrote:
Furthermore given that Scots in written or spoken form is generally not mutually intelligible for most monoglot English speakers makes the whole discussion about whether you are dealing with a language or a dialect a somewhat redundant question. Norwegian (both landsmal and bokmal) , Danish and Swedish are all mutually intelligible. English people however are generally nonplused when they're speirt how for they've sicna trauchle liftin the richt meanin o't fae a body's spikin.

The Scandinavian languages may be mutually intelligible, but find a Swede who'll understand Norwegian in Stockholm. I reckon they are about as different between them as English and Scots, and therein lies the rub - a language has to be different enough from its nearest relatives to qualify, or at least have an army. Should Scotland ever become independent, Scots will be recognised as a language. It will continue to be intelligible to any English speaker prepared to make the effort, just as Scandinavian languages are, and Czech, Slovak and Polish are, and probably just as some of the Balkan languages are. Its speakers will, on the whole, have no trouble understanding and communicating in English.
The point about the BBC etc censoring Scots is probably true, though it pains me far more that they cut out anyone who sounds working class, unless they are either in sport or light entertainment, or a criminal. I've only ever heard one person on the BBC who sounded like me, and she died last year.

Regards,

Martin

300in1
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Oct 16 2007 00:17

In fact, I think it'd be fairly incorrect to talk merely about Scots being so many dialects. It has its roots in the dialects of English spoken in Northumbria in the early medieval period. The standardised English used by the BBC and which has roots in common with southern English dialects in general is derived (I believe) from West Saxon, spoken to an ever greater extent from the cradle of the West Saxons in the North-West of London area, right up to the Mersey. It'd be a bit of a disservice to not refer to Scots as its own language. Might be fair to say that it has been highly influence by English English, but otherwise you might as well say that Dutch and English are the same language. Christ, I met a guy from Dumbarton once and couldn't understand a single word.

300in1
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Oct 16 2007 01:23

Really though, I don't think that this language stuff is relevant to the discussion of an anarchist take on Scottish independence. There are real possibilities involved in an independent Scotland and while I personally rate the continuity of Scots as a language, I do not think that it can be put in the same league of importance as achieving anarchic democracy.

The thrust which I prefer in this debate stems from the distribution of Scotland's population. There is still a large proportion of the Scottish population which lives in rural areas. At the moment, the legislation surrounding levels of democratic participation in the government is geared towards the situation in the South and Midlands of England, where Westminster politicians and bureaucrats conduct their lives. It's metropolitan in the extreme.

Should Scotland get its independence, I think the Scottish rural population would have a significant advantage in proportion of population and inherited localism over the more metrocentric English rustics. In fact, I read just the other day of a Highlands and Islands visit from the Faroe Islands, which was trying to impress upon the Scottish the fine qualities of highly localised government.

It is my belief that anarchists should be pushing a highly democratic federalist line with actions personal and group, and in the writing and distribution of propaganda. In fact, the SNP may be able to play horsey for us. Most anarchists believe to some extent or other in a pyramidal governmental structure where the power comes from the bottom up (local council delegates to less local council, to less local council and so on). The SNP's traditional voter target has been the petty bourgeoisie and the rural liberal middle-class (and if you ask me is where they got the Scottish Tory tag), but their attraction to the party is, in my not inconsiderable experience of that social class, based on low tax, high 'labour efficiency' ideals which very devolved, localised government naturally facilitates in rural areas, particularly in times of economic stability or expansion.

We as anarchists promote localised democratic government. That may not be the sole limit of our broadly socialist ideas, but it is the key factor differentiating anarchists from traditional state socialists. We should see independence as a opportunity to really push that into the limelight. If the SNP, whether you like the organisation or not, is providing a reasonably strong case for linking to the European Union, let's take that, because that is the next level of federal government that we will have to deal with. We cannot tackle the EU without the thorough cooperation of the peoples of Europe, but we can make sure our end of the anarchist bargain gains speed and we can do it without hammer and sickle socialist grandstanding and with the unwitting help of a large proportion of the middle class. That, I think, is worth its weight in gold. It is important to remember that the class war is something that is being conducted by everyone, that it is not a good thing and that our purpose is to end it, not to end the people causing it.

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Oct 16 2007 03:20
Boulcolonialboy wrote:
Bodach gun bhrigh you are clearly going fuckin mental .

he's always been a moron.

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Well, basically fuck you, you fucking nationalist bigot. Go choke on a haggis

yeah deep fried you fuck!

Caiman del Barrio
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Oct 16 2007 03:23
Dundee_United wrote:
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I suppose the next logical step for you therefore is to prove to a sceptic like me that Scots (do you mean Gaelic or what?) is actually a living, valid language beyond rather NIMBY-ish revivialist groups.

It is pretty fucked to be honest. Outside of the NorthEast and rural areas it's not spoken to any great extent. It also exists on a continuum between heavily Anglicised varieties, to heavily Scots influenced English and so on, with many speakers shifting along that continuum to change register.

So why do you believe in Scottish independence again?

Caiman del Barrio
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Oct 16 2007 03:27

300in1 - let's take a leap of faith and assume that you're saying is true and that the SNP would come to the aid of various disenfranchised social demographics. Don't you see a slight contradiction between that and anarchist ideals? I mean, should I vote Lib Dem? My personal problem with the idea is that it encourages the idea that voting changes anything...shit, once again, why am I fucking saying this on an anarchist forum? What is it about Scottish anarchists that makes them nutty liberals?

300in1
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Oct 16 2007 05:27

Alan, I was not thinking that the SNP would do our job for us. I don't believe it's fruitless to vote. It's merely a waste of time voting if you think that you are going to affect national policy. But that is not to say that sometimes party policies and anarchist strategies cannot sometimes cross paths. The SNP is covering a base in its European policy which it is very difficult for someone outside a state structure to do, let alone someone who advocates the abolition of the state. Furthermore, the rural middle class (and hence the SNP and Lib-Dems for that matter) finds common ground with anarchism in its press for increased local autonomy. That I want that, as a basic tenet of my anarchist aspect, does not make me a liberal.

Going back to my last point in my last post, I am firmly of the opinion that our problem is one firmly welded to the concept of class and that our solution should seek to break that up wherever possible. Here the working class of Scotland can find common cause with the rural bourgeoisie. It's also important to note that I am not implying that increasing the level of democracy this way is some revolutionary strike against capitalism. It is a decidedly reformist measure and would have to be managed carefully, insofar as implementation of direct democracy is concerned. We cannot rely upon the SNP, but we can ride its wave of localism. Getting power away from Westminster and Holyrood is a step in the right direction. It also makes the process of installing democracy more stable - revolutions tend to wreak havoc upon democratic efforts and citizens alike because toppling a highly centralised government creates a massive vacuum of power and the only ones equipped to deal with that is the revolutionary party (whether The Party or whoever). Revolutionary organisations build rank and file movements because if they are successful they are always needing to be big enough to fill the next vacuum. If the SNP is foolish enough to devolve power, that only makes the basic requirement for mass idealogical conformity less. Not all anarchists are anarchists if you take my meaning.