John Bowden Demo, Friday 3pm Edinburgh

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welshboy's picture
welshboy
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Aug 5 2007 19:54
Quote:
to acknowledge that you had previously expressed an interest in supporting Johns demo

To be honest I was more interested in the setting up of a Scottish ABC than the John Bowden demo. And by the way my not being involved has nothing to do with me not getting off my arse and more to do with not having the cash to get across to Edinburgh and not knowing about the Glasgow meeting.
I also have not done an about turn on the case of John Bowden, whilst I did try to attend the demo that was before I had found out more about the case and my main objective with attending the demo would have been to meet folk interested in anarchist prisoner support.

Quote:
Rationally critical for sure.

When was I not rationally critical?
I took issue with your mentioning supporting the lockerbie bomber(I know he may be innocent) and talking about the radicalization of prisoners as part of the remit for the ABC. Incarceration is almost an occupational hazard for our class, I can't think of many people I grew up with who haven't been in some sort of trouble with the police. In my opinion an ABC should exist to express solidarity and offer support to class struggle anarchists who have been locked up. Our activities in our communities and work places are where we should work towards radicalisation.
Supporting folk who are radicalized inside does I believe fall within the remit of the ABC. Supporting those radicalised inside should be done carefully, i.e I'm not going to support a rapist even if he's done shit loads of prison organizing.

Danny
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Aug 5 2007 20:04
revol68 wrote:
also Danny if you want to point out what posts of mine are so terrible please go ahead.

Where to start, where to start...Maybe it's the fact you joke about raping people. Maybe it' because you joke about murder. Maybe it's just you aren't funny and respond to reasoned arguments with trollish maho one-liners that avoid your own intellectual flaws. It could be because you attack people who can't defend themselves, yet.

I guess i just don't like you because you pretend to be an anarchist when you espouse statist opinions of the lowest order, the sort of self-promoting Nazi shit that even the worst of the tabloid press wouldn't stoop to - while doing sweet fuck all. I guess I just don't like fakers who talk the talk and it on thier arses..

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madashell
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Aug 5 2007 20:07
breakout wrote:
Fuckin hell, what a thread. Just a quick post..

madashell - In no way in my opinion did either Leeds or Brighton ABC 'consistantly misrepresented his crime and essentially lied about it by ommission'. This is a vicious smear and a lie.

So when they put out a statement referring to it as a "stupid, drunken mistake of the sort that happens all too often up and down the country of a Saturday night" or some such shite, what they actually meant was that Bowden tortured somebody to death and kept their head in his fridge? Because that confused me a little bit.

Edit: Found the original statement.

ABC wrote:
More than a quarter of a Century ago, John Bowden, then a young man, who had already spent most of his life in the “care” of the State, committed what might be characterised as a ‘stupid, drunken, murder’. There was nothing even slightly political about this act, but it was neither premeditated nor committed for personal gain. It was, unfortunately, something which happens all too frequently when men quarrel while drunk.

Now, maybe I've just not been paying attention, but how often do people lure somebody back to their flat, dump them in a bath of scalding water, chop their arms and legs off while they're alive and then behead them because they "quarrelled while drunk"?

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madashell
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Aug 5 2007 20:09
Danny wrote:
trollish maho one-liners
Danny wrote:
Since you are here anyway I'd love to meet you to discuss your previous comments face to face.

grin

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welshboy
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Aug 5 2007 20:12

Where does revol joke about raping people? Where does he defend statism? And how do you know what revols political activity is? Have you read any of revols posts on threads that aren't to do with John Bowden? He's intelligent and articulate(sometimes) despite being a rude bastrad sometimes.

Shit, never thought I'd find myself defending Revol.........

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thugarchist
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Aug 5 2007 20:14
Danny wrote:
revol68 wrote:
also Danny if you want to point out what posts of mine are so terrible please go ahead.

Where to start, where to start...Maybe it's the fact you joke about raping people. Maybe it' because you joke about murder. Maybe it's just you aren't funny and respond to reasoned arguments with trollish maho one-liners that avoid your own intellectual flaws. It could be because you attack people who can't defend themselves, yet.

I guess i just don't like you because you pretend to be an anarchist when you espouse statist opinions of the lowest order, the sort of self-promoting Nazi shit that even the worst of the tabloid press wouldn't stoop to - while doing sweet fuck all. I guess I just don't like fakers who talk the talk and it on thier arses..

Why is revol a nazi again? He doesn't agree with you? WTF?

Danny
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Aug 5 2007 20:15

Dear Sweet Uncle Joe Admin,

Who the fuck is paying you to selectively hide posts that discredit you personal views ? You are not one bit ashamed are you ? And you know you should be.

I noticed in the first propaganda campaign here against John there were more people who supported him rationally than decried him emotionally. Even "Welshboy". I guess selective editting can have a negative effect on anyone though. None of the majority of decent posters remain, just the tabloid fakers.

You can hide what you want in this thread, but why not just delete it ? Not doing so implies you think your inactive lifestylers have scored a point - yeah, right.

Who is deluding who here ?

bread and roses,
d

Danny
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Aug 5 2007 20:18
revol68 wrote:
but maybe a rape would be more within my limits, i'd probably on;y manage an aggravated sexual assualt, i'm a really useless anarchist like that.
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madashell
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Aug 5 2007 20:19
Danny wrote:
Who the fuck is paying you to selectively hide posts that discredit you personal views ?

I really, really hope you have some evidence for that, because it's a pretty serious accusation.

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welshboy
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Aug 5 2007 20:27
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I noticed in the first propaganda campaign here against John there were more people who supported him rationally than decried him emotionally. Even "Welshboy". I guess selective editting can have a negative effect on anyone though.

What do you mean by that?

Danny
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Aug 5 2007 20:30
welshboy wrote:
Shit, never thought I'd find myself defending Revol.........

So when it is right to joke about rape ? Cos most REAL anarchists - the ones who are proud to say what they have got away with - might just have noticed that. But here you are not noticing that. Just after you failed to notice the lift through to Edinburgh when you were still claiming to support John Bowden, just before you failed to notice the Glasgow meet-up for a Scottish ABC. At best, your attention span seems rather limited. At worst -

You do know I have already met you don't you ? I mean, I thought I should throw that in since you seem so 'forgetful' about every other anarchist issue you failed to notice. But you are the 'good statist' are you - never thinking you'd have to defend Revol.... time you headed back to the valleys perhaps ?

So what changed between you promising to come through to demo for John and joining in his critics - did Revol throw you a bone here ?

Danny
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Aug 5 2007 20:35
revol68 wrote:
yeah it's called a joke, it only works because we already assume that rape is terrible and hence the idea of me carrying it out in order to gain kudos with some wing nut in the ABC is comical.

Male anarchists don't joke about rape. Working class men don't joke about rape. Rapists and wannabe rapists joke about rape. You find it funny though and none of the other posters even noticed it. RapeCom would be a more appropriate.

Vaneigemappreci...
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Aug 5 2007 20:38
Quote:
If hospitals cure
Then prisons must bring their pain
Do not be ashamed to slaughter
The centre of humanity is cruelty
There is never redemption
Any fool can regret yesterday
Nail it to the house of lords
You will be buried in the same box as a killer, as a killer, as a killer
A drained white body hanging from the gallows
Is more righteous that hindleys crotchet lectures

Give them the respect they deserve
Execution needed
A bloody vessel for your peace
If man makes death then death makes man
Tear the torso with horses and chains
Killers view themselves like they view the world, they pick at the holes
Not punish less, rise the pain

One of the better moments on this thread!

But back to the topic i think its pretty clear that the ABC statement that was quoted by Madashell earlier was one of the primary reasons for the concern relating to the case of John Bowden, not to mention the fact that anarchists, and anyone with a benevolent drop of blood in their body, finds Johns crimes both horrible and inexcusable. While it appears that John is being kept in prison because of what he's done since he's been sentenced and i cant comment on his state of mind because i dont know the bloke, it does seem that the ABC has drifted somewhat from its founding function of supporting people imprisoned for fighting the state and involving themselves in class struggle activities. If the ABCs current position is to support anyone in prison who organises against the prison system, regardless of the crimes involved, then that seems like quite a shift.

Danny
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Aug 5 2007 20:42

My mistake.

revol68 wrote:
Yeah it's called a joke, it only works because we already assume that rape is terrible and hence the idea of me carrying it out in order to gain kudos with some wing nut in the ABC is comical.

Male anarchists don't joke about rape. Working class men don't joke about rape, they wouldn't even find it funny or pretend to find it funny or ignore it. Rapists and wannabe rapists joke about rape. You find it funny though and none of the other posters even noticed it. RapeCom would be a more appropriate.

So tell me a bit about yourself Revol, what group do you represent ? Do they find rape a laugh ? Are they rolling over at your murder cartoons ?And what actions and demos have you attended that so outrank the support of women at Cornton Vale that you feel a right to ciriticise ? I would love to know.

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welshboy
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Aug 5 2007 20:42

Man you are seriously delusional. First off I have never expressed support for John Bowden, only to the setting up of a Scottish ABC. I missed you offering me a lift, I get a lot of e-mails and some occasionaly get missed. As I posted elsewhere I tried to come through to Edinburgh for the first demo for John Bowden but my train was delayed by over an hour.
I do know that we have met on numerous occasions, at the peace camp, in Edinburgh and if I remember right at Talamh.
I don't see how you can take it from either my posts on here or my political activity that I am a "statist", or for that matter how you came to that conclusion with revol.
Like I said I didn't see any form of advertisment for the Glasgow meeting so didn't go.
And by the way who exactly did I promise that I would come through for the John Bowden demo? I may have said I would try to come through but I never promised anythig of the sort.
Wow talk about a thread de-railing.

Danny
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Aug 5 2007 20:42

My mistake.

revol68 wrote:
Yeah it's called a joke, it only works because we already assume that rape is terrible and hence the idea of me carrying it out in order to gain kudos with some wing nut in the ABC is comical.

Male anarchists don't joke about rape. Working class men don't joke about rape, they wouldn't even find it funny or pretend to find it funny or ignore it. Rapists and wannabe rapists joke about rape. You find it funny though and none of the other posters even noticed it. RapeCom would be a more appropriate.

So tell me a bit about yourself Revol, what group do you represent ? Do they find rape a laugh ? Are they rolling over at your murder cartoons ?And what actions and demos have you attended that so outrank the support of women at Cornton Vale that you feel a right to ciriticise ? I would love to know.

Danny
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Aug 5 2007 20:57
welshboy wrote:
Man you are seriously delusional. First off I have never expressed support for John Bowden... I posted elsewhere I tried to come through to Edinburgh for the first demo for John Bowden but my train was delayed by over an hour....And by the way who exactly did I promise that I would come through for the John Bowden demo? I may have said I would try to come through but I never promised anythig of the sort.

Um, care to reword those contradictory statement s? You were coming through to demo for John Bowden but you don't support him. Do you even read what you write or is your attention span down to seconds rather than minutes?

Quote:
I do know that we have met on numerous occasions, at the peace camp, in Edinburgh and if I remember right at Talamh.I don't see how you can take it from either my posts on here or my political activity that I am a "statist", or for that matter how you came to that conclusion with revol.

I've met tens of thousands of statists - I've also met hundreds who claim to be anarchists but aren't more than fakers - guess which camp you fall into ? You don't notice the jokes about rape and murder but feel free to pick on my posts ? Faker.

"Like I said I didn't see any form of advertisment for the Glasgow meeting so didn't go. "

You didn't come through to the demo, you didn't respond to further emails. Thank fuck. Who'd want a slimey backstabber who reverses their opinions only to blame it on public transport ...

Vaneigemappreci...
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Aug 5 2007 21:03

Danny, although revol may occassionally be very irritating and often provocative, the slurrs youve aimed in his direction on this thread are puerile nonsense, just beacuse he doesnt believe that ABC should be spending so much time supporting a convicted murderer it doesnt mean he's either "statist", a "nazi" nor a "wannabe rapist".

I suggest we stick to the argument and go a little lighter on the insults.

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welshboy
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Aug 5 2007 21:09

*sigh*
Like I said earlier the main reason I tried to come through for the demo was to try and meet up with folk interested in prisoner support. If you don't believe that my train was delayed I don't really care, though I was on the phone to someone at the demo whilst my train was held up and they then met me off the train when it arrived.
How are folk supposed to know that a meeting is happening if it is not advertised?
I do not know how anything I have said or done makes me a slimy back stabber, I have simply been critical of the ABC acting as a general prisoner support group when it was started as ameans of supporting class struggle anarchists incarcerated for their activities.
So I am a faker for disagreeing with you, well I'm glad to see your political reasoning is so succinct.
I've been called a lot of things over the years but this is the first time I've ever been called a statist. Cool.
Oh well, I'm off to masturbate over pictures of princess Di whilst listening to Jerusalem...

raw
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Aug 5 2007 21:11

1. John Bowden is one of many anarchist prisoners which the ABC support.
2. Johns Bowden prevention from release is based on political repression towards anarchists and their support for anarchist prisoners

Most of the rest has been said. We don't live in a perfect world, alot of dark shit happens, the most we can do is support people when they finally
shed their violent anger against each other and direct it towards capitalist society - which ultimate ferments and maintains its potential, disastrous effects.

I have no problem supporting John's case to be released.

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thugarchist
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Aug 5 2007 21:31

Summation of thread to date:

1. If you disagree with some ABC's criteria of support you are a statist, nazi, fake anarchyist
2. If you miss a train you're some sort of sneaky bastard
3. Revol is not only the items listed in point one but his use of ironic sarcasm also makes him a rapist
4. Everyone except Danny (and RAW I guess) is part of a large conspiracy to support US imperialism over a british guy who chopped off a dudes head and kept it in his fridge.

Did I miss something?

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welshboy
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Aug 5 2007 21:39

Aye, I caught the train but it was held up by suicidal cows hurling themselves in front of it. smile
So it's not public transport to blame but the national herd.

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 5 2007 21:41
madashell wrote:
Danny wrote:
Who the fuck is paying you to selectively hide posts that discredit you personal views ?

I really, really hope you have some evidence for that, because it's a pretty serious accusation.

the only editing has been the removal of welshboy's real name - at his request. Danny was warned about this and replied by posting up his real name again (with some added 'go fuck yourselves') and has thus been banned. therefore the admins are stalinists and everyone else is a nazi. hope that clears things up.

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thugarchist
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Aug 5 2007 21:44
Joseph K. wrote:
therefore the admins are stalinists

Yeah but that isn't some sort of shocking revelation.

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madashell
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Aug 5 2007 21:52

Yeah, I pretty much just assumed they were.

Mike Harman
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Aug 5 2007 22:55
madashell wrote:
Danny wrote:
Who the fuck is paying you to selectively hide posts that discredit you personal views ?

I really, really hope you have some evidence for that, because it's a pretty serious accusation.

Serious, but also entertaining.

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Devrim
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Aug 6 2007 07:36
raw wrote:
Most of the rest has been said. We don't live in a perfect world, alot of dark shit happens, the most we can do is support people when they finally
shed their violent anger against each other and direct it towards capitalist society - which ultimate ferments and maintains its potential, disastrous effects.

I have no problem supporting John's case to be released.

I have a huge problem with it. If we forget the politics for a minute, and just focus on the personal level, I would feel uncomfortable campaigning for the release of a sociopath. Somebody talked about 'rehabilitation' earlier. Personally, I doubt if many of the people who commit these sort of crimes can be 'rehabilitated'. I would certainly not want it on my conscience if he were released, and re-offended.

Devrim

raw
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Aug 6 2007 09:45
Devrim wrote:
raw wrote:
Most of the rest has been said. We don't live in a perfect world, alot of dark shit happens, the most we can do is support people when they finally
shed their violent anger against each other and direct it towards capitalist society - which ultimate ferments and maintains its potential, disastrous effects.

I have no problem supporting John's case to be released.

I have a huge problem with it. If we forget the politics for a minute, and just focus on the personal level, I would feel uncomfortable campaigning for the release of a sociopath. Somebody talked about 'rehabilitation' earlier. Personally, I doubt if many of the people who commit these sort of crimes can be 'rehabilitated'. I would certainly not want it on my conscience if he were released, and re-offended.

Devrim

Hi Devrim,

ABC are not campaigning for him to be released early, they are campaigning on the fact that he should be released due to the own procedures of the prison system and that him not being released has NOTHING to do with his crime but his association to anarchist solidarity campaigns. From people who I know that have spent time in prison with John, they would know if the guy is still capable of such things more than we who have never met him. I trust their opinion that this guy has recreated himself, from the nutter he was in his early twenties to an anarchist fighting against the prison industry and also supporting fellow prisoners in their struggle.

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 6 2007 15:18
revol68 wrote:
subsequent emails have included threats about drowning me

someone's threatened to kill you for criticising support for murderers? oh sweet irony. it wasn't one of the people vouching John B has reformed was it?

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Devrim
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Aug 6 2007 17:07
raw wrote:
From people who I know that have spent time in prison with John, they would know if the guy is still capable of such things more than we who have never met him. I trust their opinion that this guy has recreated himself, from the nutter he was in his early twenties to an anarchist fighting against the prison industry and also supporting fellow prisoners in their struggle.

Again on the level of my personal feelings about this case, I would prefer the opinions of, say, half a dozen professional psychiatrists than 'people who [you] know that have spent time in prison with John'.
Actually, I worry about the whole psychiatrist thing, but I'd be more worried by a few people saying 'he seems alright now'.
I don't think that your mates are really qualified in any way to say whether he is likely to re-offend.
Devrim