John Bowden Demo, Friday 3pm Edinburgh

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lem
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Aug 5 2007 11:36
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Hey, you know, some of the women we demo'ed for yesterday are junkies - should we offer a public defence of heroin too ?

this was a good point - i didn't really understand the rest confused

in all fairness you are excusing [-or something similar] heroine addiction, no? you're not condemning ex-adicts - which is good IMO. but me personally... i've thought about torture and what it must be like to go thru. and it's a bit scary and ex-torturers should be condemned. i just think that no-one should go thru that kind of experience - what must it be like?

yeah i mean, i think you should go to more an effort to separate out your moral and political case here. there is no moral/utopian case IMO. i don't understand politics really, so i don't know about the rest.

eta: i would like to discuss this with you - danny.

i think you have an ethical case - but just not a just one. i can't think of a single thing that might mean tho... maybe that it's leftist? yeah. wink laugh out loud

Danny
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Aug 5 2007 11:52

Lem, say if John hadn't killed this person but had instead kept him locked up in a tiny room for the rest of his natural life and beaten him up regularly, wouldn't that count as aform of torture too ?

ABC condemn torture. And believe me, John sincerely does too. John has been condemned, sentenced and punished for his crime. Unless someone believes in capital punishment that should be the end of it.

lem
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Aug 5 2007 12:05

yeah i myself personally... maybe think would visit. i forget the word - 'strict rules about what he can do and if he complies with it then show some amount of solidarity'. but you yourself seem to be taking an abstract moral stance in your belief that either he must die or be accepted...

i think it's sad that he suffers abuse in prison - that's what you are saying... perhaps you could make attempts toward that rather than a rejection of what "i myself think is part of moral law: that torturing someone to death can NEVER be abstracted from notions of justice". i myself just don't think that it's this is part of the moral order, to show this level of solidarity to bowden. but politics heh?

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 5 2007 13:11
Danny wrote:
To this extent ? To what extent is it irrelevant beyond the pages of the News of The World ?

to the extent that there's been a debate whether the ABC should support class struggle prisoners, or anyone claiming to be an anarchist before or after conviction/incarceration.

Danny wrote:
f you talk to him you can. Failing that, you can see his rehabilitation from the simple fact he was in an open prison being prepared for release. Now he is in lock down in maximum security. What changed - he was visited by anarchists. Now forgive me for mistaking this place as an anarchist forum, my error since I can recognise two or three well known anarchists under their pseudonymns, but as I said 'you don't have to be an abolisionist or an anarchist to see the truth about Johns detention.

i was paraphrasing revol's argument, which he'd made based on John Bowden's published comments. i don't know the state releasing someone means they're rehabilitated, loads of paedos get very short sentences for example (don't know recidivism rates off the top of my head though). i also don't know i'd trust my judgement just from talking to someone, proverbially loads of nutters come over as nice enough. not that i'm saying he hasn't changed, just that i don't know, and revol was doubting it based on what John had written. certainly the state is satisfied that he has though.

Danny wrote:
Amnesty International support the closure of Guantamo Bay, should they offer a public defence of terror too ? Did you know the ABC used to be called the Red Cross ? The Red Cross visit prisoners of war. Do you demand the Red Cross offer a public defence of war ? Your logic is flawed to put it politely.

is amnesty international's stated purpose 'to support jihadi and islamist prisoners'? no, check your logic.

Danny wrote:
Hey, you know, some of the women we demo'ed for yesterday are junkies - should we offer a public defence of heroin too ?

if they were smack dealers, and the ABC held them up as prisoners of the anarchist struggle i'd be pretty annoyed. and smack dealing is several notches down from trying to blow up airliners full of random people in order to bring about a society where 98% of the population has to die off. now, if the ABC supports all prisoners, their crimes are irrelevant (or at least far less so). however the ABC groups i'm familiar with don't profess to support all prisoners, but "anarchist and other class struggle prisoners"(1) - so if they're being supported for what they''ve done it's obviously relevant. if someone went one up on kascynzki and sarin gassed the tube 'for anarchy' would the ABC feel obliged to play down their actions and support them?

Danny
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Aug 5 2007 13:55
Joseph K. wrote:
to the extent that there's been a debate whether the ABC should support class struggle prisoners, or anyone claiming to be an anarchist before or after conviction/incarceration.

I'll support whoever I want and I don't need anyones approval to do so. ABC Scotland as a group can support whoever we all agree to support. Other ABCs can support who they want, and if they don't want to network with us for supporting John and the women in Cornton Vale I'm sure they will let us know directly. Now, if you aren't in an ABC then it is none of your business really. If you consider yourself an anarchist and feel my choices reflect badly on you simply because I consider myself an anarchist, that implies I need your approval to blow my nose or scratch my arse. If that is so, it isn't me who should be questioning my politics, you should be questioning your own politics.

Joseph K wrote:
i was paraphrasing revol's argument, which he'd made based on John Bowden's published comments. i don't know the state releasing someone means they're rehabilitated, loads of paedos get very short sentences for example (don't know recidivism rates off the top of my head though). i also don't know i'd trust my judgement just from talking to someone, proverbially loads of nutters come over as nice enough. not that i'm saying he hasn't changed, just that i don't know, and revol was doubting it based on what John had written. certainly the state is satisfied that he has though.

I'd vouch for John. There are people who post here who claim to be anarchists who aren't, they are self-promoting hypocrites, careerists or lifestylers if you will - and I don't mean anyone on this thread. Revol has extrapolated and misinterpreted one article John wrote to prove an opinion he started out with. I'd think it is incumbent on anyone to investigate fully before condemning any person to the treatment John is enduring today.

Joseph K wrote:
is amnesty international's stated purpose 'to support jihadi and islamist prisoners'? no, check your logic.

My logic is just peachy-kean darling. Is ABCs stated purpose to support murderers ? No. They do support people convicted of violent crime even when that crime is admitted and apolitical if the subsequent treatment of the prisoner is political. In this respect, they are far more humanitarian than an organisation that allows any state to treat any prisoner convicted of violence inhumanely. If you don't like that, then don't join an ABC, problem solved.

Joseph K wrote:
if they were smack dealers, and the ABC held them up as prisoners of the anarchist struggle i'd be pretty annoyed. and smack dealing is several notches down from trying to blow up airliners full of random people in order to bring about a society where 98% of the population has to die off. now, if the ABC supports all prisoners, their crimes are irrelevant (or at least far less so). however the ABC groups i'm familiar with don't profess to support all prisoners, but "anarchist and other class struggle prisoners"(1) - so if they're being supported for what they''ve done it's obviously relevant. if someone went one up on kascynzki and sarin gassed the tube 'for anarchy' would the ABC feel obliged to play down their actions and support them?

When someone becomes pretty annoyed, they not only become pretty annoying, they also lose focus. If you hate ABC for other reasons then go start a thread about it rather than confusing a thread about John Bowden, who, as far as I am aware has never blown up an airliner or dealt smack. If you want, I will ask John if he has any plans to blow up airliners on his release. That would be a terrorist action. That is what ABC is accused of, being terrorists. Now, if Brighton Anarchist Black Cross had chosen the name Brighton Liberal Balck Cross, John would be free to discuss this with you online. However the extension of your argument is that the US state has the right to do whatever it wants to the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay. It also implies that if someone dealt smack then the prison service should be allowed to do whatever it wants to them unopposed. And I find that position is less becoming of the anarchist struggle than my support of John is. See, for some people, the anarchist struggle is a struggle for liberty against oppression, and for others, it is a struggle to understand the basic concepts of liberty.

Danny
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Aug 5 2007 14:13

Sorry Revol,
I don't need a history lesson from someone like you. I'll wait until JosephK sanitises any argument he can discern in your vitriol and then I'll discuss it with him. Sure, I'd be happy to call a man who commited a brutal murder a friend and have rational arguments with him, but even I have standards. I'm guesing you have never been in prison and never will do anything that could get you imprison. Good rebel, safe rebel.

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 5 2007 14:16
Danny wrote:
I'll support whoever I want and I don't need anyones approval to do so. ABC Scotland as a group can support whoever we all agree to support. Other ABCs can support who they want, and if they don't want to network with us for supporting John and the women in Cornton Vale I'm sure they will let us know directly. Now, if you aren't in an ABC then it is none of your business really. If you consider yourself an anarchist and feel my choices reflect badly on you simply because I consider myself an anarchist, that implies I need your approval to blow my nose or scratch my arse. If that is so, it isn't me who should be questioning my politics, you should be questioning your own politics.

right, i point out there's been a debate - a point of fact. and therefore i'm saying you need my permission to do things. what were you saying about logic again?

Danny wrote:
If you hate ABC

i don't hate the ABC ffs.

Danny wrote:
Now, if Brighton Anarchist Black Cross had chosen the name Brighton Liberal Balck Cross, John would be free to discuss this with you online.

really? you don't see a connection between someone you acknowledge as a terrorist being supported by the ABC on political grounds, and the state seeing the ABC as supporting terrorism? there's a distinction sure, but it's not like the state's just made it up out of thin air (not that they're not capable of such, in my anti-war days i was named as an "extremist" in court papers without having even done any violence or property destruction)

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madashell
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Aug 5 2007 14:22
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if you aren't in an ABC then it is none of your business really.

All arguments about Bowden aside, this is a really shitty attitude to take. You're quite free to start up a campaign to free Ian Huntley for all I fucking care, but don't expect people to keep their mouths shut when you're doing and saying stupid shit.

Danny
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Aug 5 2007 14:31

What stupid shit am I doing and saying ?

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Devrim
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Aug 5 2007 14:35
Danny wrote:
John was brutalised as a child. John was brutalised as a youth in a brutal state-system supported by your families taxes. That doesn't excuse anything but it does explain it if you truly wish to understand. The best way to stop crimes like Johns are to stop treating people with the contempt and brutality both the state and posters here have treated John.

I am sorry, but lots of people were brutalised as children, and don't chop off people's heads, and keep them in the fridge. The point is here that this was an extremely barbaric sociopathic act. You can't really be surprised that people are shocked by it.

Anarchist Black Cross Network wrote:
We believe, as most Anarchists do, that prisons serve no useful function and should be abolished along with the State. We believe in the abolition of both the prison system and the society which creates it.

I believe that in a communist world there will still be the occasionally sociopathic act. What would you do with the perpetrators? There are three choices really;
1) Let people who keep heads in the fridge walk around free to commit other crimes.
2) Lock them up for the protection of the community while trying to help them.
3) Execute them.
For me I think the second is the least worst choice, and in that I accept that the abolishment of capitalism, and the state won't destroy prisons. In will decrease them in numbers dramatically, and change lots of things about them, but a need for some sort of prison will still remain.

Danny wrote:
Sorry Revol,
I don't need a history lesson from someone like you.

It seems that you do. The point of the ABC was to help class war, and then specifically anarchist class war prisoners. John Bowden is not a class war prisoner by any stretch of the word.
In my opinion this whole affair drags the ABC’s historical good name through the mud.
Devrim

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welshboy
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Aug 5 2007 14:52
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Personally I'd like to support the 'Libyan bomber' Megrahi too, but that seems unlikely as he will be freed before we can get our act together.

wtf? Why the hell should an Anarchist Black Cross group support this guy? Whether or not he was wrongly convicted he is not a class struggle prisoner. He was a Libyan intelligence officer! The ABC serves the function of supporting class struggle (and other) anarchists who are locked up for their activities. I'm reserving judgement on the Bowden thing until I've read a bit more about it. I have a major problem with ABC's supporting the unabomber as for one thing he isn't an anarchist.
What was the deal with the demo at corton vale? Are any of the women locked up there for class struggle activities?
Like I said above, and others have pointed out, the ABC was set up with a fairly specific remit, to support class struggle prisoners not to act as a catch all prisoner support service. Groups like this already exist.
I figure danny is probably going to deduct from that last statement that I agree with the way women are treated in corton vale or that I think don't deserve support. For the record I think corton vale is a disgusting place and know a fair few women who have been locked up there. I believe however that there are groups already in existence that are taking SPS to task with the issues surrounding corton vale. I believe an ABC group should concentrate on the remit that ABC was first set up with. If you want to concetrate on the wider issues of the prison industry then I suggest you join one of the existing groups that deal with these issues.

Danny
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Aug 5 2007 15:22
madashell wrote:
don't expect people to keep their mouths shut when you're doing and saying stupid shit.

Why not ? You are keeping your mouth shut while Revol is joking about rape and murder ? The fact your consternation is limited seems to suggest macho forum point-scoring rather than an interest in debate.

welshboy wrote:
wtf? Why the hell should an Anarchist Black Cross group support this guy? Whether or not he was wrongly convicted he is not a class struggle prisoner. He was a Libyan intelligence officer!

I admit is is arguable, and I haven't even discussed this with ABC Scotland as it won't happen anyway. My argument though is I know him to be innocent, and that he was stitched up for political reasons by the CIA. Because of this, many thousands of inncoent prisoners, including anarchists, languish in Scottish prisons due to faked fingerprint evidence, and he may have some information that could help free them and expose the lack of independence of our state and it's judiciary. If you are interested in winning the class struggle, you shouldn't ignore such a thing. However, I shouldn't have typed support, I should have said visit. It's a separate argument though that I'd prefer to have with people who actually do support political prisoners rather than here.

welshboy wrote:
What was the deal with the demo at corton vale? Are any of the women locked up there for class struggle activities? Like I said above, and others have pointed out, the ABC was set up with a fairly specific remit, to support class struggle prisoners not to act as a catch all prisoner support service.

Yes, female anarchists have been locked up there before and will be again. As to who specifically is locked up there just now, that is what we went to see. Of course, the fact that everyone who is locked up there in appalling conditions is working class and a victim of the state probably doesn't mean much to armchair rhetoriticans in their ivory towers.

I have read every ABC publication and website I can find twice so please don't patronise me simply because I am new to this.

welshboy wrote:
If you want to concetrate on the wider issues of the prison industry then I suggest you join one of the existing groups that deal with these issues.

I sugeest you don't tell other groups how to conduct their business. I would take that advice from an existing ABC group - the fact is it was another longterm ABC group member who suggested the trip. It is worth noting that none of these many other mythical prisoner support groups bothered to attend the demo. Personally I see politicising apolitical prisoners as just as important as supporting existing comrades. I wasn't even keen on the name ABC Scotland, I'd have prefered a blander nom de guerre but since I missed the first meeting I missed my chance to argue that. And since none of you attended either the meetings or the demos, and show no inclination for any sort fo prisoner support, then it seems arrogant for you to pontificate.

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welshboy
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Aug 5 2007 16:13

I did not tell any other group how to conduct their business, I suggested that you join one of these other groups as you don't seem to grasp the purpose of the Anarchist Black Cross.
I didn't attend the meeting as I live on the other side of the fucking country and would have liked to attend but am perpetually skint at the moment.
Also I am not slagging people off for asking questions about the policies of ABC scotland or using a persons health as a weapon against them.
Arrogant my arse, I am an anarchist who is active in Scotland and therfore have a right to question the actions of other anarchists in scotland if there is a chance that those actions could in some way affect the work that I do as an anarchist.
Edited to remove flame type thing

Danny
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Aug 5 2007 16:47
welshboy wrote:
I did not tell any other group how to conduct their business, I suggested that you join one of these other groups as you don't seem to grasp the purpose of the Anarchist Black Cross.
I didn't attend the meeting as I live on the other side of the fucking country and would have liked to attend but am perpetually skint at the moment.
Also I am not slagging people off for asking questions about the policies of ABC scotland or using a persons health as a weapon against them.
Arrogant my arse, I am an anarchist who is active in Scotland and therfore have a right to question the actions of other anarchists in scotland if there is a chance that those actions could in some way affect the work that I do as an anarchist.
Edited to remove flame type thing

The other side of the country is 60 minutes away in a bus or train. I even offered to drive you and what did I hear - tumbleweeds. Besides, there was a Glasgow meeting held for ABC that you never expressed an interest in. So not you're that active eh, or you could have walked there. If you want to 'ask questions' about ABC Scotland policy, why not attend and contribute. But since you are telling me what group I should join without taking the slightest interest in that group, or the attitude of the wider ABC network, then big round of applause for all the work you do as an anarchist. Try not to get repetitive strain injury with all that keyboard warrior work.

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welshboy
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Aug 5 2007 16:57

Just because I'm not involved in scotland ABC does not mean I am inactive.
I also didn't hear of the Glasgow meeting or I would have attended. 60 minutes and more cash than I can spare at the moment. You offered me a lift? If you did then my apolagies for not responding.
Keyboard warrior? I am not about to indulge you with an explanation of what I do. In fact I do believe that I normally try to be both polite and helpfull when I post on here. It is you who are acting like a "keyboard warrior". What a fucking insult, are keyboard warroirs like eco-warrior with pocket protectors and and inch thick glasses? roll eyes

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pingtiao
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Aug 5 2007 17:32

Danny, there seems to be quite a recurrent theme in your posts on this thread that

(don't agree with supporting John Bowden) == (don't agree with supporting class-struggle political prisoners)

which seems odd given that you keep getting pulled up on it.

Danny
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Aug 5 2007 17:44
welshboy wrote:
Just because I'm not involved in scotland ABC does not mean I am inactive.

No, but it does rule you out of judging what we should and shouldn't be doing.

welshboy wrote:
I also didn't hear of the Glasgow meeting or I would have attended. 60 minutes and more cash than I can spare at the moment. You offered me a lift? If you did then my apolagies for not responding.

If the next meeting is in Edinburgh then I'd still lift you through - as long as you promise to be a back-seat driver anymore. Regardless of your volte face about John, you just criticised the Cornton Vale demo as not being ABC enough, suggesting I should join some other group ( which you fail to list by name). Since I have explained the support for the Cornton Vale demo was suggested by someone from the wider ABC network - which you are not part of - don't you think you should apologise for that ?

welshboy wrote:
]Keyboard warrior? I am not about to indulge you with an explanation of what I do.

Thanks, since I wasn't asking Admin - DO NOT use real names without consent - this is a warning.

welshboy wrote:
In fact I do believe that I normally try to be both polite and helpfull when I post on here. It is you who are acting like a "keyboard warrior".

By reporting a demo you never attended....right....as not ABC enough...right....but since it was called for by genuine ABC activists, and since you are so polite normally, surely sorry isn't the hardest word ?

welshboy wrote:
What a fucking insult, are keyboard warroirs like eco-warrior with pocket protectors and and inch thick glasses?

How surreal. Or rather, why surreal ?

Pingtiao, try using more words as your conciseness is lost on me at this point.

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 5 2007 18:21
Danny wrote:
welshboy wrote:
Just because I'm not involved in scotland ABC does not mean I am inactive.

No, but it does rule you out of judging what we should and shouldn't be doing.

SO i take it you're involved in the scottish prison service then? otherwise you'd better stop judging what they should and should not be doing roll eyes

Danny
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Aug 5 2007 18:32
Joseph K. wrote:
SO i take it you're involved in the scottish prison service then? otherwise you'd better stop judging what they should and should not be doing roll eyes

So Joe, I had hoped you'd repsond with argument rather than pettiness and spite - well, at least you haven't stooped to the level of Revol, Jack and Thug. Still, aim higher next time.

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 5 2007 18:34

well i tried giving you an argument, and you told me it was irrelevant as no-one outside the ABC should voice any criticism. but should come on ABC actions. like good passive anarchists. you ignored Devrim too, who has offered argument without any rhetorical trimmings.

Danny
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Aug 5 2007 18:34
Jack wrote:
I'm glad this happened whilst I'm in Edinburgh.

Since you are here anyway I'd love to meet you to discuss your previous comments face to face.

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madashell
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Aug 5 2007 18:44
Danny wrote:
Since you are here anyway I'd love to meet you to discuss your previous comments face to face.
Danny, less than two hours ago, wrote:
Try not to get repetitive strain injury with all that keyboard warrior work.

grin

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welshboy
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Aug 5 2007 18:44

I didn't criticise the corton vale demo, I asked about it. Though I do see how it looked like I was.
My not being active in ScottishABC does not mean I cannot criticise the activities of that group, if I'm not involved does that mean I cannot support it?
The fact that the ABC is an Anarchist organization means that I as an anarchist am entitled to be as critical as I damn well like. The activities of anarchist organizations can reflect upon the wider anarchist movement. This is why I am critical of other ABCs supporting the unabomber.
And you do realize that using a persons real name on a forum is at best bad manners, or was it supposed to be some veiled threat that you know who I am in the world beyond the keyboard?

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thugarchist
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Aug 5 2007 18:46
Danny wrote:
Joseph K. wrote:
SO i take it you're involved in the scottish prison service then? otherwise you'd better stop judging what they should and should not be doing roll eyes

So Joe, I had hoped you'd repsond with argument rather than pettiness and spite - well, at least you haven't stooped to the level of Revol, Jack and Thug. Still, aim higher next time.

Which level have I stooped to? Disagreeing with the politicization (Edit-> of the case) of a non-political prisoner? Nuts.

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madashell
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Aug 5 2007 18:49
Danny wrote:
No, but it does rule you out of judging what we should and shouldn't be doing.

So if, say, Brighton ABC were to announce that they though the Hands Off John Bowden campaign was an idiotic waste of time and they weren't going to touch it, you wouldn't utter so much as a peep of criticism? I'll never understand why so many anarchists react so hysterically to the idea of actually discussing differences of opinion and listening to criticism.

When it comes down to it, there are far more important causes that ABC could be focussing it's time and energy on than John Bowden. Why should anarchists waste our time giving support for people in prison for anti-social, anti-working class crime? And if it doesn't really matter what he did, why has ABC consistantly misrepresented his crime and essentially lied about it by ommission?

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welshboy
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Aug 5 2007 18:50

You disagreed with danny, man that's pretty fucking low.
I'm gonna ask the admins to ban you for that!

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 5 2007 18:54
welshboy wrote:
My not being active in ScottishABC does not mean I cannot criticise the activities of that group, if I'm not involved does that mean I cannot support it?

no, it means you can uncritically attend their events which they advertise on a discussion forum, without offering any discussion that may be deemed critical. praise is acceptable by permission.

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welshboy
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Aug 5 2007 18:57

Cheers for sorting that out JK, could you take my name out of his post too?

Been done, cheers.

Danny
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Aug 5 2007 19:31
welshboy wrote:
I didn't criticise the corton vale demo, I asked about it. Though I do see how it looked like I was.

Okay then.

welshboy wrote:
My not being active in ScottishABC does not mean I cannot criticise the activities of that group, if I'm not involved does that mean I cannot support it?

Yes you can, but 'it looked like' you were criticising us for not being true to the wider ABC network. So far, we have only done two things and both have been suggested by the wider ABC network. If you had joined us you'd know that.

welshboy wrote:
The fact that the ABC is an Anarchist organization means that I as an anarchist am entitled to be as critical as I damn well like.

Rationally critical for sure.

welshboy wrote:
The activities of anarchist organizations can reflect upon the wider anarchist movement. This is why I am critical of other ABCs supporting the unabomber.

I disagree with you on the first point and the second point is never going to be relevant for reasons I'd rather explain to you over a pint or a coffee.

welshboy wrote:
And you do realize that using a persons real name on a forum is at best bad manners, or was it supposed to be some veiled threat that you know who I am in the world beyond the keyboard ?

No, it was meant to prove you had had the opportunity to attend the meetings you never attended. I don't even know your name is Admin named removed - again - so you're banned yet, but belive me, there aren't too many activists in Glasgow who trumpet their Welshness. I took my cue from this forums existing etiquette - I can link to other examples of people here responding to a pseudonymn with a name. I was actually trying to be personable rather than threatening for what it is worth, to acknowledge that you had previously expressed an interest in supporting Johns demo and that I hadn't forgotten that or mistook you for someone else. I apologise if I blew your secret-agent cover. As for running to the admin to remove your name from the post, I'd have happily done that if you'd asked.

welshboy wrote:
You disagreed with danny, man that's pretty fucking low. I'm gonna ask the admins to ban you for that!

Listen, I've tried my best to involve you previously but comments like that after previously expressing support for Johns demo, while you remain silent about Revols comments, suggest we'd probably not work well together. We don't need to though - I'm not one of the founders or main players in ABCS. It would have been nice to have another experienced and active anarchist on-board, but that really is your choice more than mine. Personally I'm glad you never got off your arse when you had the chance. Hypocrite.

And as for the admins "Admin - DO NOT use real names without consent - this is a warning." - go fuck yourself you inconsistent pathetic hypocrite. Did you say that when xxx identified Ginger as xxx - no. Can I add name removed stole sixty quid off me and then tried to pick a fight in the street to get me arrested over it - probably not. I am an anarchist who knows many of these people, whose identities are far from hidden to even a half-wit. Since it has been pointed out to me that is not an anarchist forum, it is a forum which encourages joking about rape and murder - without censure, and which never reports any action, just badmouthing of others actions, I'll post elsewhere less fascistic, like Stormfront for example. By the way, is it true LibCom stands for Liberal Commentary ? Cos it sure as hell doesn't stand for anything else.

breakout
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Aug 5 2007 19:41

Fuckin hell, what a thread. Just a quick post..

madashell - In no way in my opinion did either Leeds or Brighton ABC 'consistantly misrepresented his crime and essentially lied about it by ommission'. This is a vicious smear and a lie.