Glasgow Anarchist Dayschool

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AnarchoAl
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Oct 17 2004 22:37
Glasgow Anarchist Dayschool

Glasgow Anarchist Dayschool, 6th of November, 2004

Anarchist Dayschool A day of discussion and workshops which focus on the ideas behind anarchism and the organisational issues facing the anarchist and grassroots anti-authoritarian movement.

Where?

12PM onwards, Saturday the 6th of November @ the Kinning Park Centre in Kinning Park

(Just outside Kinning Park Underground).

Glasgow has a tradition of anarchist dayschools, many of which have inspired, educated and spawned new ideas for the direction of the anarchist movement. This time round the Glasgow Autonomous Project is hosting a dayschool with the following workshops-

* Class useful perspectives and ways of modelling and thinking about this all-consuming issue which is the basis behind why we organize.

(TBC)

* Feminism why are so few women involved in the anarchist movement? what's the difference between your sex and your gender? addressing the myth that all anarchists already have a feminist critique and the practical issues involved in achieving gender equality.

(TBC)

* Fishing - Communities in crisis With fish quotas being cut, fishermen are out of work and communities across the North are facing poverty. An account of the situation in the North-East and discussion on how anarchists can organise to defend our all-too-frequently marginalized sisters and brothers there; particularly important and topical for those looking for issues to organize around in the general response the G8 conference in 2005.

(George from The Moray Against Poverty Network)

* How we organize as libertarians A discussion comparing and discussing different anarchist ways of making group decisions and organising on a wider scale.

(Alistair D. - Glasgow Autonomous Project)

* Anarchism and Marxism - exploding the mythology behind the apparent polar oppositions in the left and some suggestions for how we can avoid the childish "yah-booh" sloganeering which has coloured our relations with our comrades in the socialist parties, without compromising on our politics.

(Thomas - Glasgow based Libertarian Socialist)

* Nationalism and Colonization A critique of the classic anarchist stance on nationalism and an exploration of what it means to be colonized, to have one's language, culture and expressions of self smothered, oppressed and obliterated and what this means in the Scottish context for our politics and our organisation.

(Nick - Glasgow Autonomous Project)

* What's wrong with meetings An analysis of why it's difficult to get people to attend meetings, why they fail to be democratic and inclusive, why they are a bad way to organize and what we can do instead to face up to this challenge.

(Alice - Glasgow Autonomous Project)

* The Situation in Australia - A look at Australia's recent past and a description of the state of the Australian left and the challenges faced by our comrades there.

(Roz and Kate - Australian comrades involved in a variety of left groups in Glasgow)

GET INVOLVED!!

-- If you would like to give a presentation/seminar/workshop or host a discussion at the dayschool please contact scottishanarchists@nocog.org; we'd be very interested to hear what you have to say!

Nick Durie

red rb red

Wayne
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Oct 18 2004 10:11
Quote:
Nationalism and Colonization: A critique of the classic anarchist stance on nationalism and an exploration of what it means to be colonized, to have one's language, culture and expressions of self smothered, oppressed and obliterated and what this means in the Scottish context for our politics and our organisation.

(Nick - Glasgow Autonomous Project)

Hoots mon, where's ma kilt? Och no mon, the bloody Sassenachs have stolen it and my sporran too. Next they'll take my proclaimers CD. Where's Mel Gibson when you need him? Och mon, I'm so oppressed, the bloody English have smothered my expression of self I cannae get ma haggis for aw these Indian and Italian restaurants mon.

Seriously, if anyone could elaborate what that's about I'd be grateful 'cos it sounds like winging nationalist shite. I mean what fucking culture? Deep fried Mars bars? Irn Bru?

AnarchoAl
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Oct 18 2004 22:22

Yeah, just like the bloody Irish, whinging bastards.

Nick Durie
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Oct 19 2004 00:42

This reply is directed at Wayne.

I don't think that was a particularly progressive post of yours Wayne. I actually think it was bordering on racism; yes, racism. You have identified a specific group of people for stereotyping on the basis that this stereotype you have defined is negative, worthy of derision, a lower caste/class/subsection of humanity. There is no black, brown, yellow, red people here, but the adjective actually holds.

I would surmise that you are actually from the UK's dominant culture - it stands to reason.

There are a few reasonable grounds for greater autonomy for the Scottish people. The first is that Scottish culture, Scottish language and the Scottish identity are separate, very separate, from that of the rest of the UK.

Scottish culture is diverse. It always has been. Scotland was a colonizing state when it was last 'sovereign'. The people of the Highlands and Isles were subjugated by the lowland state and attempts were made at enforcing ethnocide (Treaties of Iona). The language of that state was known as 'Scottis' (pronounced Scots, see http://www.scots-online.org/grammar/whits.htm for more details; for a quick comparison as to how the two languages are different have a look at http://www.lallans.co.uk/sls.htm Wayne) and it was the language of law, intelligent discourse, science and engineering, as well as what folk in lowland Scotland spoke. To the north and west Gaelic was the language of folk, altho, for reasons of centralization of power into the hands of a few in the lowlands (see a picture emerging here Wayne?), the lingua franca was Scots. In Orkney and Shetland the folk spoke a dying language called Norn, which was eventually replaced by Scots - which the lairds enforced on the people there. To this day people continue to speak Scots and Gaelic, altho both languages are dying out due to cultural, educational and governmental pressure.

In 1872, as you'll no doubt be aware of course Wayne!, the British government introduced the education act (an act which in England was designed to curb the excesses of the working class, who had been showing an alarming tendency to educate themselves, frequently inculcating subversive values). In Scotland however the situation was rather different. Universal Education had been on the go since the 16th century, but was run by the Kirks. The act enforced guidelines on what could or could not be taught. One of the provisions was that the medium of education was to be in English and English alone. My mother and father were both belted as a result of that, for using "Scotticisms". It only ceased to be part of the educational stipulations for Scottish children under the last Conservative government. Nonetheless the prejudice instilled by centuries of casual, and some active, repression has meant that even now school children will not be told that they language that they may be using is not in fact corrupt English (as it is widely perceived) and that yes the speech form they use is no less valid than yours Wayne. If you could have any idea about what this kind of assault against someone's language could do to their psyche you might be less keen to 'satirize'.

So culture. What has British rule ever done to repress Scottish culture, bar set a paradigm for normality that begins and ends in the South-East of England, has no basis in Scottish history, little similarity to the many native forms of self expression, monopolizes the media to the extent of blacking out everything that does not derive from that dominant culture.

Indeed whenever Scottish culture does receive mention the tendency is to stereotype, to cliche, to give the niggers some jungle trash - they'll like that. So in one fell swoop 800 years of written literary history, a unique tradition of poetry and song with dozens of specific genres, the country that hundreds of years prior to Brecht spawned a genre of populist, social reform, verfremdungsefekt masterpieces of agit-prop plays is reduced in an instant to haggis, tartan, shortbread and country dancing for the delectation of the Scotch; moreover this tokenism (which itself borders on racism) merely compounds the general malaise by simultaneously telling Scots they've nothing going for them and allows Britclone organisations such as the BBC to portray themselves as being good to the natives.

In terms of identity. Well let's just have a week peek at party politics in Scotland for example. Both the Greens and the Scottish Socialist Party (which is not like the Socialist Alliance and is not controlled by the SWP), both parties of independence, are mainstream political parties, with seven and six seats respectively in the parliament of 129. The SNP is the country's official opposition and the country is ruled by a coalition government of Labour and the LiubDems. It is not like Northern England. The BNP do not hold any real influence in the country. In fact the Kirk has greater power. This would be the same Kirk that in the 'twenties was telling protestants to take direct action against catholics who were increasingly entering the ports to find work. Indeed Glasgow, where I live, still expriences sectarian killings, orange marches, and all the nastiness of the Northern Irish conflict with a lot less of the point. In the North we find communities in resistance. In resistance to flights on the sabbath. Much of this country is covered in mountainous terrain. For huge swathes of the country the nearest hospital is four hours journey or more. In the North and NorthEast (outside of Aberdeen) fishing is the major employer, altho it is rapid decline, horsetraded out of existence in EU trade deals as a peripheral industry to the UK. This is a country that is far more broadly leftist than the UK dominant culture. It is a country which is radically different in so many ways from the rest of the UK.

It is also a country with an identity crisis. You might be glad to hear Wayne that what is Scottish in Scotland is frequently viewed with suspicion, both alien, other and despicable and simultaneously homely and full of warmth. There is a term used for this phenomenon - Caledonian Antiszygy - and it infects the Scottish psyche to greater or lesser extents in all walks of life. Scotland might not have been a unitary culture at the time of the act of Union, but the experience of it certainly created a uniform experience of mental colonisation. Everyone initially was infected by it. In the late 18th and early 19th century the emergent bourgeoisie was going thru this crisis of identity, desperately finding itself English wives and getting speech therapists from London to correct their Scotticisms (even today the sound of an 18th century upper-class London accent can be heard in the ultra posh mansion houses of Kelvinside in Glasgow and Morningside in Edinburgh); of course no tears can be lost for these fuckers and they've mostly gotten over this - altho you'll still occasionally see the Scottish ruling class kowtowing, as if it had been caught naked masturbating, to the 'more erudite' of the English SouthEast - but you can imagine what effects this kind of identity crisis has on a Scottish working class identity, particularly given that Scots - the language of the stupid, remember Wayne? - is now only spoken by the working class.

In fact Scottish people could be said to suffer from colonial neuroses. Franz Fanon's book Black Skin White Masks gives a useful introduction to this phenomenon and I have to say as a Scot who has always lived in Scotland I have observed all of the phenomena detailed in that book in the lives and identities of the people around me and then some.

I think Scottish nationalism has great validity. I say that as an anarchist. I am a Scottish nationalist and I believe in a no state solution to the independence issue. I think independence for Scotland could only be a positive step forward, even if only to capitalize on the fact that Scotland is so much more left wing than the rest of the UK (I think a Scottish left, freed from the mental fetters that the more reactionary British political establishment places on the Scottish psyche, and freed from the legacy of the colonial paradigm, would be far stronger and I would even suggest that a Scottish government would be likely to be a socialist one, making the anarchist movement the left opposition.

You Wayne are a racist. You may be progressive in other ways, but when it comes to treating subjects such as this sensitively and fairly you are a fucking boor, and someone who recreates the colonial paradigm that was no doubt lain bare to you from your weaning onwards as your inheritance. Thank you for providing example, if example there was needed, of the imminent strategic need for the anarchist movement for this discussion to happen at the dayschool.

:red: red n black star :red:

Wayne
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Oct 19 2004 08:41

Well Maoris everywhere are playing small violins and crying softly for your oppression Nick...

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The first is that Scottish culture, Scottish language and the Scottish identity are separate, very separate, from that of the rest of the UK.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that Hebridean farmers have shared identity with Govan kids because they're both from some fantastic entity called Scotland? Utter pish. What the fuck is Scottish identity? If it's not tartan and shortbread then it must be some other invented tradition because the notion that all Scottish people have some shared psyche different from folk in Newcastle is mystificatory slaver.

Scottish language is not separate either. People speak versions of English in Scotland born of diverse linguistic traditions including Old Scots. Just as they do in England- Doric and Cockney are both dialects and neither demands nationalism for their existence. A lot of working class slang in Edinburgh is derived from Romany. Language changes, kids apropriate Americanisms, create new words, these linguistic traditions, real ones alive today, are more important and interesting than artificial attempts to resurrect the language of Burns. The biggest living tradition of Scots is probably Ulster Scots (and that's a load of piss as well) and you will get in a terrible confusion if you start defending autonomous Ulster-Scots culture.

As a stage in capitalist development most nations uniformed language to create social cohesion and increase productivity. France is one of the best examples as it happened so recently and deliberately. In the nineteenth century very few working people spoke French and their various languages and dialects were educated out of them. In Brittany, Normandy, the Somme, Alsace and other regions the language was largely lost the same as it was in Cornwall, other parts of England and Scotland.

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To this day people continue to speak Scots and Gaelic, altho both languages are dying out due to cultural, educational and governmental pressure.

Gaelic is not dieing due to governmental pressure, do you think those shite TV shows nobody can understand are on because they're comercially viable or popular?

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If you could have any idea about what this kind of assault against someone's language could do to their psyche you might be less keen to 'satirize'.

Booh fucking hooh, we've all been told to speak properly at school, I'll bet Scousers and Geordies get it as much as Wegies. It's one of the ironies of Scottish education that nationalist twats like you have seen 'Scots' return to the curriculum while living Scottish dialects are still corrected.

As a social group within the UK (not that they are a social group), Scottish people are less cohesive, more powerful, better off, more pandered to and less 'different' than many other groups. What about the cultural identities and linguistic traditions, of, for example, Bengalis? And how do ethnic minorites fit into your fatherland? Do British Asians need various independent states on this island to cater for their diverse lingo-cultural traditions or does it not matter because they've 'got their own countries', where they may never have been, and they can read Rabbie Burns if they dinna like it mon?

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So culture. What has British rule ever done to repress Scottish culture, bar set a paradigm for normality that begins and ends in the South-East of England, has no basis in Scottish history, little similarity to the many native forms of self expression, monopolizes the media to the extent of blacking out everything that does not derive from that dominant culture.

Scottish culture flourished under the act of union, it is hard to find more prolific preiods of cultural and technological production than the Scottish enligtenment. What are the 'native forms of self-expression' you want to see on TV? Caber Tossing? Haggis flinging? What the fuck are you on about? Is 'Chewing the Fat' not fucking great?

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Indeed whenever Scottish culture does receive mention the tendency is to stereotype, to cliche, to give the niggers some jungle trash

You're not black Nick, unless you are. 'Is it because I is Scottish?' Don't compare the experiences of Scottish people in the UK to that of immigrants from Asia, Africa and the Carribean if you want to be taken seriously.

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In terms of identity. Well let's just have a week peek at party politics in Scotland for example. Both the Greens and the Scottish Socialist Party (which is not like the Socialist Alliance and is not controlled by the SWP),

No the SSP is the child of Militant, has the SWP as a platform within it and is largely Tommy's personality cult. His political programme is ridiculous, undesirable and impractical, read 'imagine' if you haven't.

Your claim that Scotland is broadly leftist is misinformed. In the 1950s over 50% of Scottish voters voted Conservative. The move away from Conservatism has largely been based on national sentiment and doesn't necessarily reflect 'broad left' tendencies.

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(I think a Scottish left, freed from the mental fetters that the more reactionary British political establishment places on the Scottish psyche, and freed from the legacy of the colonial paradigm, would be far stronger and I would even suggest that a Scottish government would be likely to be a socialist one, making the anarchist movement the left opposition.

Your political naivety is staggering. A Scottish government would not be Socialist! It wouldn't even be Keynesian as proposed by Sheridan. He wants to put a £7 minimum wage on call centres, like anybodys going to employ some fucking Wegie to answer phones for £7 an hour when they could get somebody in Bombay who actually speaks English to do it much cheaper. The anarchist movement would be the left opposition? WTF? That you can consider anarchism in such terms suggest you do not understand it. And there are about 50 anarchists in Scotland you weirdo.

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In fact Scottish people could be said to suffer from colonial neuroses.

Scottish people couuld be said to suffer from eating too many deep fried pizzas and having a pish football team.

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It is also a country with an identity crisis.

The only people having an identity crisis are nationalist pricks like you, Sean (lives in Spain) Connery and Tommy (grass the rioters) Sherridan. The rest of us don't give a fuck, because we don't give two shites about the Scottish nation and wish it would fuck off back up its Kilt and take ireland, England and Wales with it.

Before the act of union Scotland was backward and feudalist. Competeing clans fought over disagreements between their respective rulers. For example, the McDonald's and Macleod's fought for years because someone's wife went blind. Don't make out it was some cultural utopia subsequently oppressed by the bloody English. Scottish Nationalism has always been about rivalries between different ruling classes, it's a reactionary mystificatory ideology that can go fuck itself. The 'it's our gas' mentality is the true face of this divisive, reactionary, bourgeois ideology.

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In the North and NorthEast (outside of Aberdeen) fishing is the major employer

i thought it was importing smack.

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For huge swathes of the country the nearest hospital is four hours journey or more.

Most people in Scotland live the same distance from hospitals as people in England so you are highlighting differences within Scotland more than differences between Scotland and England.

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It is a country which is radically different in so many ways from the rest of the UK.

Regions are different- Lothian and Perthshire, Uist and Govan, Aberdeen and Auchtermuchty, the Borders and Birmingham, Norfolk and Nottingham, Harlseden and Hackney... What's your point?

Yours is the pishest argument on enrager since Crack Fix Propaganda advocated nuking London.

Why is the BNP small in Scotland? 'cos we have you and other reactionaries to preach a different nationalism that takes up their space.

You Nick, are a whining arse determined to locate your oppression in a naive fantasy of the Scottish nation. Sack Berti Vogts and fuck up.

And William Wallace fucked baby lambs.

AnarchoAl
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Oct 19 2004 13:35
Quote:
Well Maoris everywhere are playing small violins and crying softly for your oppression Nick...

Good stuff, start out with a straw man... nobody's claiming the the Scots have been oppressed by the British state to the extent that the Maoris have. But it is recognisable that there is a Maori people, yes? By their shared independent culture, institutions, and way of living.

Scottish Nationalism is about self-determination for Scotland. Both Nick and myself are aware that a Scottish state would still be bad, and we would continue to struggle against it. That does not make a people's desire for independence invalid, nor does it remove the fact of the history of attempts to wipe out that individual culture.

The "hoots mon" stuff you were spouting is a racial stereotype invented by the colonising state to belittle the colonised. It is racist. Forgiveable, even amusing, in some contexts, but as part of an attack on the idea that Scotland has a culture or that Scottish anarchists should be discussing the assault on our culture as part of a revolutionary strategy it is completely unacceptable.

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Booh fucking hooh, we've all been told to speak properly at school

- and you accuse *Nick* of being a "nationalist twat"!

You seem to be advancing the language of what I take to be your native state (England) as the "proper" way of speaking. Anyone who doesn't fall into line deserves to be belted!

Nick Durie
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Oct 19 2004 16:25
Quote:
Are you seriously trying to suggest that Hebridean farmers have shared identity with Govan kids because they're both from some fantastic entity called Scotland?

I'd refer you to what I actually wrote:-

"Scottish culture is diverse. It always has been. Scotland was a colonizing state when it was last 'sovereign'. The people of the Highlands and Isles were subjugated by the lowland state and attempts were made at enforcing ethnocide (Treaties of Iona)."

I also discussed the different languages that have and still are spoken in Scotland, and touched on the different traditions. No Wayne I am not saying that Govan children have a shared identity with Hebridean farmers.

Why the straw man?

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You're not black Nick, unless you are. 'Is it because I is Scottish?' Don't compare the experiences of Scottish people in the UK to that of immigrants from Asia, Africa and the Carribean if you want to be taken seriously.

Well don't mock my language like some colonizing bastard then. You were assuming a linguistic norm that was yours (that of the dominant culture), in your first post, and deviating from it in order to ridicule. Moreover you linked that deviation to a particular category of people (Scots) whom you wanted to single out as inferior. To be honest that sounds very similar to the kind of treatment colonized peoples have received in the past. It wasn't the kind of active oppression that blows a native's head apart with a bullet but it was oppressive and superior. You clearly view your culture as better, and mine worthy of contempt. I think the analogy stands in relation to your actions at least Wayne, don't you think? You are a racist.

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Most people in Scotland live the same distance from hospitals as people in England so you are highlighting differences within Scotland more than differences between Scotland and England.

No proportionally there are a fuckload more in Scotland, which as part of the UK has received significantly less investment in transport and infrastructure, part of the reason for this is because these areas are seen as marginal in the extreme. In Scotland these areas are a lot less periphera, altho the lesson of history is that a centralized Scottish state performed only _slightly better_.

This is why I do not believe in states.

I have stated I don't believe in a Scottish state previously; let me make it a little bit clearer for you tho Wayne. A centralized Scottish state would not be substantially better for Scots, but it would be better. I also do not see a desire for greater autonomy and control over our lives as Scots (Scottish nationalism - note Wayne that I am a nationalist and do not want a Scottish state) as on the same footing with supporting an imperialist state like UK (British nationalism).

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Scottish language is not separate either. People speak versions of English in Scotland born of diverse linguistic traditions including Old Scots. Just as they do in England- Doric and Cockney are both dialects and neither demands nationalism for their existence.

You know that's almost a linguistic argument. It's not tho.

Whether Scots is a language or not I don't give a shit. It is however internally consistant amongsat its dialects. Stands to reason as it was once the language of state.

There isn't a lot of difference in the following:

Fan are thae bodies awa up the road til thon event (NE)

Whan are thae bodies awa up the road til thon event (dundee)

Whan are thae bodies awaw up the road ti thon event (central)

There are some differences in the dialects but they're not massive, and they are all fuckloads more similar to ach other than they are to BSE or SSE.

You're right tho there is no demand for nationalism for a speech community to exist. That wasn't my point however. My point was that the UK state is oppressive towards everything that doesn't conform to its cultural norms. I wasn't advancing the need for a Scottish state here, and haven't advanced it anywhere else in fact. I was pointing out the need for cultural/national liberation, and autonomy for each of the Scottish peoples.

As regards Gaelic and the likes of Tele Fios et al this is a recent phenomenon. Gaelic is dying out coz it was officially banned by an act of the British parliament, Just as the Scottish state, under succesive Jameses, tried, unsuccessfully to "educate" it out of Gaels (see my reference to the treaties of Iona - duh Wayne!?). I reassert my claim that Gaelic and Scots are both dying out, in part, due to governmental oppression.

As regards Ulster Scots being the most pithy survivor of the Scots dialects, I don't think that's true. It's certainly the best funded, and, yes, this is in part for dubious political reasons, but I don't think it is the most widely spoken variety of Scots. I would probably say Doric or Border Scots had more speakers. Moreover Ulster Scots is actually spoken most widely by folk south of the border in the Northern counties of the republic, where it receives no funding.

As far as Romany words go in the Edinburgh urban speech community, some are unique to Edinburgh, some are more general. That's just a linguistic pattern with little salience to this discussion. I could assert that Scots in the NorthEast contains more Norse vocabulary and influence. It's true but it alters nothing. If you said that Romany had altered the grammar then I'd be a little more interested. the fact that a given speech community has made more extensive use of a thesaurus over many years than another indicates much the same. When people discuss scots they're not discussing a few words added onto English, they are describing a linguistic grouping comprising many dialects whose phonology, morphology, syntax and lexicon set it apart from other linguistic groupings which we might also place under the header "West Germanic".

The point about the Scots issue however, before we diverge into the realm of linguistics, is that speakers of Scots get a bum deal by the UK state, are mostly working class, and are concomitantly given neuroses. This is airt and pairt with the centralization of power in London. this argument is common to nationalists and anarchists/leftists alike. The point was that "Scottish nationalism has great validity", and to lump it in with the nationalism of the colonizing power, as you have done, and as anarchists often do, is both disingenuous and dogmatic.

Anarchist Communism can only achieve its goals when anarchists embrace trends towards decentralization of power and avoid acting like dogmatic, racist, stalinist fuckheads.l

red n black star :red: red n black star

Wayne
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Oct 19 2004 19:32

Oh pull yourselves together you pair of over privileged whining twats. What a lot of self-pitying shite. Nothing you've said separates Glaswegians or Dundonians from Scousers, Geordies, Mancs, Cornish, or from bengalis, Jamaicans, etc. I know it's hard becausee you grow up with banal nationalism and come to internalise it, but it's bollocks and you should be able to see through it, the concept of 'Scotland' is a ruling class wank fantasy.

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Whan are thae bodies awaw up the road ti thon event (central)

What the fuck does that mean? Who the fuck says that?

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Well don't mock my language like some colonizing bastard then. You were assuming a linguistic norm that was yours (that of the dominant culture), in your first post, and deviating from it in order to ridicule. Moreover you linked that deviation to a particular category of people (Scots) whom you wanted to single out as inferior. To be honest that sounds very similar to the kind of treatment colonized peoples have received in the past. It wasn't the kind of active oppression that blows a native's head apart with a bullet but it was oppressive and superior. You clearly view your culture as better, and mine worthy of contempt. I think the analogy stands in relation to your actions at least Wayne, don't you think? You are a racist.

Everyday at work this lassie takes the piss out of my Scottish accent and tells me to go back to Jock Land, I tell her 'shut up Scouser, gies ma hubcaps back', I don't start wanking about my cultural repression and demanding national liberation. I've no idea what your dominant culture piss is about but I'm Scottish, I was born there, have lived most of my life there, my parents were Scottish, I have the Caledonian blood too my brothers wink You are a pair of moaning winging cunts who should find something better to do with your time. As a Scottish person (ugh, I hate saying that), as a person who has mainly lived in Scotland, I can say I have experienced crisis 'cos of debt, unemployment, 'cos my girlfriend dumped me, etc. Not cos I didn't see the Dashing White Sergeant on TV one week!

Fucking muppets. Go stand on the Royal Mile and amuse the tourists, they might buy your pish. Seriously, are you sure yous aren't actually Americans? Maybe your grandfather was a scotch? No I don't know your cousin from Montrose wink

Oh shit... I'm a self-hating Scot!! My culture has been oppressed so long that I resent my own heritage!! I've dyed my ginga pubes!

Anyway, why do linguistic traditions within the border of Scotland need national liberation, while those in other parts of the UK don't? And, again, what about the cultural identities and linguistic traditions, of, for example, Bengalis? And how do ethnic minorites fit into your fatherland? Do British Asians need national liberation movements on this island to cater for their diverse lingo-cultural traditions or does it not matter because they've 'got their own countries', where they may never have been, and they can read Rabbie Burns if they dinna like it mon?

This is bollocks and you should be able to see through it. Seriously lads, have a word. See the last time we played England, I had my mates round before the game, we had saltires and lion rampants out the window, I had my Jimmy Hat, we played flower of Scotland on repeat. But only for a game of football, I'd never be such a dick to try to build a political analysis out of sentimental nationalism that will never be in the interest of the working class.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the anarchist left opposition after socialist independence grin

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A centralized Scottish state would not be substantially better for Scots, but it would be better.

Well maybe if 'we' keep 'our' gas for ourselves... Keep Scottish jobs for Scots... I'm not intersted in what's better for Scots, my interest lies with the international proletariat. It lies with overcoming mystificatory identities including recent historical creations called nations. It lies with working class solidarity across borders, for revolutionary communism.

Take your twee tartan crap and your half baked bourgeois ideology and shove it up your fucking arse you pair of haggis brained petty nationalist, inward looking, self-pitying freaks.

redyred
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Oct 19 2004 19:54
Nick Durie wrote:
Moreover you linked that deviation to a particular category of people (Scots) whom you wanted to single out as inferior... You clearly view your culture as better, and mine worthy of contempt. I think the analogy stands in relation to your actions at least Wayne, don't you think? You are a racist.
Wayne wrote:
I'm Scottish

I think the lesson Nick can learn from this is:

It's Class.

Also:

Wayne wrote:
Hoots mon, where's ma kilt? Och no mon, the bloody Sassenachs have stolen it and my sporran too. Next they'll take my proclaimers CD. Where's Mel Gibson when you need him? Och mon, I'm so oppressed, the bloody English have smothered my expression of self I cannae get ma haggis for aw these Indian and Italian restaurants mon.
Nick Durie wrote:
To be honest that sounds very similar to the kind of treatment colonized peoples have received in the past... It wasn't the kind of active oppression that blows a native's head apart with a bullet but it was oppressive and superior.

No it fucking doesn't. It sounds like a pisstake of a wanky sentimentalist national stereotype/distracting romantic nationalism. But then maybe I would say that because I'm English and therefore clearly an cultural imperialist.

AnarchoAl
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Oct 20 2004 17:21

Weird, I've never heard anyone who's actually Scottish say "hoots mon where's ma kilt?" before.

I think that Scotland is a colonised nation, I think those stereotypes are racist (and yes I know race is a social construction) and I think that understanding the effects of colonisation on Scotland is important to our organising and propaganda efforts.

You seem to be confusing this position with "bourgois" nationalism, ie wanting local as opposed to colonial capital to rule. This is not the case. I am a class-struggle anarchist first and foremost. This does not mean having no analysis of the history and culture of the area in which I have grown up, live, and take action- in fact it requires that I do have such an analysis!

Redyred of course it's about class. But class is only one form of analysis and only one angle on understanding what's going on. Colonial theory is also very useful, for example, and I see nothing wrong with applying it to Scotland. I think Nick makes a compelling case for its application to Scotland, although this is not to deny Scotland's actions as a coloniser or to create a false Scottish national consciousness to replace the false British national consciousness.

Colonial theory may also be perfectly applicable to the English periphery, just as Nick points out that it applies to the old Scottish state vs the Scottish periphery as much as it does to the British state vs the British periphery (which includes Scotland and Northern England of course). This is not the position of someone arguing that a Scottish state will be our saviour.

One nice example of crossover in theory is the tendency of the upper and upper-middle classes in Scotland (and other areas peripheral within the UK) to be very anglified ("southern anglified"? wink ) in terms of their speech.

Scottish nationalism is positive inasmuch as it is a demand for autonomy. I came up with a slogan that I quite like a few weeks back "Self rule not home rule!", though it could be interpreted as being individualist shock

Wayne
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Oct 20 2004 23:53

Al, yous have been ripped mate. Really fucking ripped grin

1. Scotland is not colonized, that's a comical assertion.

2. Here's to Hinglish, Americanisation (especially cool things that originated from Samuel L J), linguistic creativity, globalisation and ethnic diversity.

3. Scotland's a region within the UK. May it remain so until we abolish nations.

4. Scottish people are not oppressed in any way that English people are not.

5. Scottish culture is not oppressed in any way that English culture is not.

6. There are programmes and funding for the handful of people who speak Gaelic and there's fuck all for the many people who speak Cantonese, Mandarin, Urdu, etc. This is a consequence of racism and nationalism that you perpetuate.

7. Auld Scots is no more important than good performances of Shakespeare and while both my provide a degree of amusement, neither is a basis for a political analysis.

8.

Quote:
Whan are thae bodies awaw up the road ti thon event

That is badly spelt English. Auld Scots is only good for addressing a Burns supper. If you want to learn it and speak it- great, have fun. But I'm not in the least bit interested. I want to learn to speak decent French. I don't expect your taxes to pay for my French classes so don't expect mine to pay for you to learn to say 'great chieftan o the puddin race. Mon.'

9. Britain is a union of nations not a conquest by England. Scotland has done very well out of the union. Whether it could now do better independently is of no interest to communists.

10. Berti's a disaster.

11. There is no such thing as Scottish culture, no such thing as Scottish identity and no such thing as Scottish psyche. You have asserted all these things exist with a naive nationalism as pitifully ignorant as a 'well oim English roit, so I care about English people first, isn't it?' mentality. Oh no. I have just oppressed the cultural self-expression of southerners. Oh no. Having failed to justify some shared experience, language or psyche amongst people who live in Scotland, your analysis is as credible as the plot in Braveheart.

12. "Self rule not home rule!" is a shite slogan.

13. There are about 50 anarchists in Scotland, this is not enough to make them the official opposition of an imaginary 'socialist' government which in reality will not come to power because Sheridan's iedas about how to manage Capital are not beneficial to the current stage of capitalist development.

14. 'Scottish' is not a race.

15. The attempt to classify diverse traditions and ways of life under one heading (Scottish) is bizarre, irrational, nationalist and reactionary.

16. The prioritisation of traditions existant before recent waves of immigration is racist.

17. Scottish nationalism, like all nationalism carries implicit racism but also explicit racism like the SSG.

18. I'm glad your grandad was Scotch, I'm sorry I don't know your cousin from Montrose.

19. Your proposed workshop is stupid and embarssing and you should scrap it. If it does go ahead then at least it's followed by "What's wrong with meetings: An analysis of why it's difficult to get people to attend meetings"

20. The answer is class.

AnarchoAl
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Oct 21 2004 15:00

I'd love to debate this, but I can't be arsed replying to posts that don't address my specific points.

Why isn't colonial theory applicable to Scotland?

- Isn't the existence of petty nationalism is evidence that it does?

Why is it wrong to assess unique cultural aspects that Scotland possesses from the perspective of how this can aid the anarchist struggle here?

- One slogan that we have had quite a bit of success with in Glasgow, that came out of discussions and thoughts on this aspect of Scotland is "Nae Mair Pish!", proving that these theories are positive and useful for a practical purpose.

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Ed
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Oct 21 2004 15:26
Quote:
seriously tho go get a job with the tourist board u pair of daft fucks!

There's no need for that revol. You're not arguing with Username or some other loon. These are class struggle anarchists who have a different view to you on the role of nationalism within anarchist politics. There have been no personal attacks thrown at you and you didn't need to say this. I'd like it if you apologised coz, IMO, this is out of order.

Anonymous
Oct 21 2004 19:56

I agree, Gie's Peace

(and stop attacking the Irish and the Scots - what about the Welsh for a change?)

Nick Durie
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Oct 22 2004 01:31

On behalf of comrade Dave Coull, a well-known class-struggle anarchist, originally from Montrose, who has asked me to post this:-

Nick, could you please forward my comments on.

>> Britain is a union of nations not a conquest by England.

That is the official British state version. The official British state

version ignores uncomfortable facts like the corruption and violence

used to get a tiny unrepresentative minority of the Scottish ruling

class to pass the Act of Union, the English troops massed on

the border to make sure they did, and the several days of rioting

by which the working class of Scotland expressed _their_ opinion

of this "voluntary" union. How strange that an alleged anarchist

should slavishly repeat the British state's official version.

>> I'm sorry I don't know your cousin from Montrose.

Have you got a cousin from Montrose, Nick?

I'm from Ferryden.

Just across the river from Montrose.

When my mother was young, a Montrosian venturing into Ferryden,

or "Fleghyden" as Montrosians called it because we all allegedly

had fleas, risked getting pelted with stones, but nowadays

Ferryden is really just a sort of suburb of Montrose.

>> Your proposed workshop is stupid and embarssing

What's "embarssing" about it ?

The fact that the SWP won't like it ?

Is Wayne afraid of the Beaujolist Workers' disapproval ?

>> and you should scrap it.

That would be FAR more embarssing. Now that a wider

group of folk know about your workshop, if it DOESN'T

go ahead , this will be widely seen as proof that anarchists

are just as ready to suppress dissent, and free and open

discussion, as the most rigidly authoritarian of Marxists.

I know I said earlier that I didn't think I could make

the Glasgow anarchist day school, Nick, well, that

was at least partly because of the cost of getting there,

but I would like to be there to hear your talk and to

take part in the discussion. When is the day school?

Is it open to other folk besides anarchists? Donald,

would they chuck you out of the SSP if you went?

>> The answer is class.

Depends what the question was.

Dave C

Nick Durie
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Oct 22 2004 02:32
Quote:
"Whan are thae bodies awaw up the road ti thon event"

That is badly spelt English. Auld Scots is only good for addressing a Burns supper. If you want to learn it and speak it- great, have fun. But I'm not in the least bit interested. I want to learn to speak decent French. I don't expect your taxes to pay for my French classes so don't expect mine to pay for you to learn to say 'great chieftan o the puddin race. Mon.'

[

'Thae' - those

'Thon' - that (in the sense of far away, but also implying more closeness to those one is speaking to)

'awaw up the road' - leaving

'bodies' - people

"That is badly spelt English"

No, it's not English, it's Scots. I've never seen anarchists express more reactionary views than some of your before. So far I have belittled no-one's culture on this thread. You, Wayne, have in a single paragraph dismissed out of hand someone else's language (as you've pointed out you're not a speaker of Scots); you have said it is useful for nothing, and you have described it as corrupt English. That hardly seems appropriate for someone who claims to have an anarchist political agenda. Anarchism is about the end of class oppression and collective freedom of humanity, free from racism, sexism and homophobia and other hierarchies and that to me includes freedom from judgements like: "That is badly spelt English. Auld Scots is only good for addressing a Burns supper."

I've talked about the need for diversity (and yes that does include the diversity of those from cultures other than the dominant ones) and understanding and for this I've been branded 'racist' and 'bourgeois' out of pure dogma and more than a little cultural superciliousness that borders on racist hysteria. Some people really need to get a grip and ask themselves some searching questions. There is no point in claiming to be about diversity and autonomy and an end to class oppression if in practice you actually think it acceptable to reify some of those oppressions. How many times do you think Scots speakers, or speakers of any speech community that isn't the dominant one, get told to 'speak properly'? Your Queen would be proud of you Wayne, you're a fine example of a British male.

Also it is incredibly difficult to debate when people don't answer your points but rather create straw men and throw insults whilst raving hysterically about some mythical beast called nationalism that if anyone was listening they might get the impression is about to consume the entire planet in a thousand year Reich ruled over by class-struggle anarchists from Scotland.

I have said I don't believe in a Scottish state! I don't believe in any state. At no point during this argument have I said anything that could make anyone believe otherwise. Nonetheless I think the arguments made by nationalists have a lot of validity and I think that Scottish anarchists should take them on board and not make disparaging remarks that are based on a dogma which equates Scottish nationalism with British nationalism; a dogma that I have to say sounds not only inchoate and out-of-touch but quite frankly located somewhere in the back of Balfuff!

It's just ludicrous to say you are against nationalism therefore imperial chauvinism is the same as, say, the struggle of the Palestinian people; and yes I have heard that argument advanced by one German autonomist, who finished his rant against the Palestinians by saying: "solidarity with the Israeli people." (which is not to say that I think the Israeli people do not need our solidarty BTW, just that it was a spurious 'anti-nationalist' argument) This kind of nonsense is why we need to discuss this issue.

As far as the rubber bullets issue goes I accept that Scotland is not a warzone - that's another straw-man, and I have had my fair share of time in warzones before any matcho bullshit starts. That however has no bearing on the argument. Scotland has been a warzone in the past over this issue tho, and there are still people alive who can remember when English regiments were dispatched and tanks deployed on George Square in Glasgow to suppress revolt (the Scottish regiments being held in barracks for fear they might side with the people).

Cheers now,

Nick Durie

For a Scotland rin wi autonomous municipalities an soviets that recognizes diversity and uphauds it, raither nor scomfishes it.

Anarchist-Communism.

red n black star

nuclearcivvy
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Oct 22 2004 03:16
Wayne wrote:
Quote:
I mean what fucking culture? Deep fried Mars bars? Irn Bru?

Burns, the reformation, the covenanters, Walter scott, John Mclean, and the ritual disemboweling of gobshites like you.(We keep that bit quiet though.)

nuclearcivvy
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Oct 22 2004 03:28

Is it just me, or does Wayne and co come off like torys?

We can smell a tory a mile off up here. Sent them homewards etc etc. Now, if one comes up here, for a shooting holiday or something, we all piont, and start muttering "Therra baw-hied, therra baw-heid." Which in galic, means "There's one of those money obsessed, hate filled, psychotic fox torturing inbred, morris dancing monarch kissers."

(It's a wonderful language galic. So expressive.)

redyred
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Oct 22 2004 13:54
Nick Durie wrote:
>> Britain is a union of nations not a conquest by England.

That is the official British state version. The official British state

version ignores uncomfortable facts like the corruption and violence

used to get a tiny unrepresentative minority of the Scottish ruling

class to pass the Act of Union, the English troops massed on

the border to make sure they did, and the several days of rioting

by which the working class of Scotland expressed _their_ opinion

of this "voluntary" union. How strange that an alleged anarchist

should slavishly repeat the British state's official version.

Yes, of course Scotland was long ago an English conquest. Ancient history to me. And sure, that history has shaped the modern Scotland in a number of ways, but ones that are pretty irrelevent now. The language I speak is old English watered down by Latin, Germanic and Skandinavian languages from Roman, Saxon and Norse invasions many years ago. I don't care. You can't confine culture to nations - people in cities have a different culture to people in the countryside. What your doing is trying to put a barrier between Scottish and English workers. Fuck that, concentrate on the real barrier - the one between classes.

Nick Durie
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Oct 22 2004 15:53
Quote:
What your doing is trying to put a barrier between Scottish and English workers.

Ay, coz that's what we're trying to do of course, erect a barrier. In fact you can tell from comments about diversity and understanding between peoples that in fact I'm fighting for a Scottish state which as its first act will erect a huge wall, kind of like the one in Gaza, between Berwick and the Tweed.

Jesus get a grip, stop responding with dogma and cliches and actually answer the points that have been raised.

_Nobody_ on this thread has advanced the idea of a Scottish state.

:red: red n black star :red:

henry
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Oct 22 2004 18:51

This subject concerning culture, nationalism, and who oppressed who is beginning to sound tired and pointless.

I like being Scottish and all the baggage that comes with that, and I don't have a identity crisis, or colonial neurosis. I like to think I have a objective view of Scottish history free of all the romantic Walter Scottian nonsense.

The Act of the Union was a partnership between the ruling classes of Scotland and England. Through it the Scottish ruling classes and merchantile classes were given access to English colonial markets and powers.

The new seat of power was transferred from Edinburgh to London, and the ruling classes of Scotland were quick to relocate and align themselves with the new British establishment.

The Scottish lower classes had no one to protect them, the traditional Scottish lords were now serving British interests. After Culloden (a dispute between two families, one German the other Italian) the lords recruited their menfolk for colonial wars, and Scots began to take over the military establishment.

Admiral Dundas reformed the navy that Nelson inherited. John Moore and Abercrombie trained up the Army which was one of the first to defeat the French in Eypgt during the Napoleaonic wars. Tradional Highland families

began to climb up the British military ladder.

During this time when Scots were making their fortunes, and attacking native cultures in America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. India, Asia and Africa, Highland Scots were being evicted from their homes and replaced with sheep. And as it was wrong that the Highlanders were treated in this barbaric way, it was equally wrong that Scots colonisers made life hell for Irish, Native Indians, Aboriginese. and other peoples they came up against.

My point is that it seems pointless to winge about English imperialism, whilst ignoring the damage that Scottish colonialism did to other cultures.

Anarchists should get rid of these romantic notions about nationalism, and cultural identity, since all peoples, no matter where they come from, become victims or oppressors under a imperialist system.

Wayne
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Oct 22 2004 23:11
Quote:
For a Scotland rin wi autonomous municipalities an soviets that recognizes diversity and uphauds it, raither nor scomfishes it.

Dyselxics of the world untie!

nuclearcivvy
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Oct 23 2004 01:55

Of course the effects of subjugation are relevent today. Infact, they go to the heart of this.

The one reason we cling to Scottish culture is the attempt to take it from us.

That's also why England is having such an identity crisis. Nobody tried to take it away from them, so they have taken it for granted, and lost touch with it. A shame, but that's karma fur ye.

Ironic that the attempt to eradicate our culture has been the one thing to keep it alive.

My culture is my map, and my community is the road.

Nothing to do with military campaigns, or massive achievements. I'm on about people. Examples. things handed down, like a language, taylor made to antagonise oppressors. So you see...

Ah ken whaur ahm frae. Ah ken yous dinnae. and ah ken how anaw.

henry
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Oct 23 2004 10:11

The British state began to whittle away at English identity after the Act of the Union. During the industrial revolution English rural communities were destroyed and whole populations were shipped into ghettoes to become cheap slave labour.

The British State oppressed the English Working class during the industrial revolution, using poverty, low wages, poor housing, disease, malnutrition, tyrannical laws, and massacres like Peterloo to keep that class under control.

During the Chartist times the English working classes and radicals were opposed to the idea of the British Empire, because they could see that it was destroying other cultures overseas, and they could see no benefits for English people. Whilst the ruling classes got rich, the poor got further exploited. It was the British state that created globalization, and it was the English working class, along with Scots, Welsh, Irish who opposed it in the 19th century. Remember also that working class pressure from all areas of Britain got rid of the slave trade.

The British state has throughout it's existense attacked regional identities, attempted to replace it with this artificial idea of being 'British'. The State when it suits them will also exploit regional differences, such as Conservatives appealing to English voters, or Labour appealing to Scots. As far as I am concerned the different political parties are the different faces of the state.

It is wrong to say that the English have never been attacked. They were the first to be attacked when the British |State was formed.

Ed's picture
Ed
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Oct 23 2004 16:21
redyred wrote:
What your doing is trying to put a barrier between Scottish and English workers.

Come on red, that's bollocks and you know it. There's a difference between celebrating your culture and trying to put barriers in our class. Personally, and I don't know much about Scots culture, I reckon cultural diversity in our class is summat to be celebrated in itself. Fuck, I don't want to spend my days eating English food and listening to Blur (especially as Blur are shite)! I love that fact that working class people have different customs, traditions, foods, languages and all the other things that make up culture. As long as we remember that one thing we have in common is our history i.e. that of international working class rebbellion, then surely everything else is irrellevant. And anyway, I'd love to try Haggis grin

That said, I do agree that the whole romanticising of Scottish history is blatantly bollocks - nationalist histories usually are. And I don't think it makes much sense to be calling for a seperate Scottish state, Nick (that's what I understood you as saying anyway).

Last thing, Wayne, the argument that most Scots don't give a shite about Scots culture doesn't necesserilly mean anarchists shouldn't. Sadly, most working class people in Britain don't give a shit about the class struggle but I'm not gonna drop that! I'm generally undecided on this topic so I'm not saying we should or we shouldn't embrace Scots nationalism (tbh, I'm leaning towards shouldn't) but surely there's some middle-ground.

nuclearcivvy
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Oct 24 2004 04:55

We're only advocating nationalism as a defence against exploitation. I'd hope it would be a stepping stone. Scotland could lead the way in shedding our oppressors, cos we wouldn't want to stop with westminster.

We have a right to be a unit. The Scots. We are that unit anyway. OK so our ruling class sold us to your ruling class. We're not asking for our ruling class back. We want a republic. Although the concept of nationhood is unhelpful to humanity in general, the fact is we are a nation in name only. An enslaved nation. That's much more offensive to me.

Who knows where Scottish independence could lead us?

Hello! roll eyes Are you guys, as a bunch of anarchists, going to advocate the status quo? Shake them up! Get behind an independent Scotland on the grounds of anti-imperialism, fracturing of block power, justice to the disadvantaged, and sheer bloodyminded mischief against the state!

You may find a grateful nation willing to listen to you.

redyred
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Oct 24 2004 12:21

In some ways culture is like race in that it can't be polarised into homogenous blocks. As I'm sure you'd all agree, although it may be often portrayed in that way, there is no one "black" or "white" but thousands of subgroups within them, so many as to make the whole concept of race meaningless. Culture is the same in that there is no block culture for one region - especially not one the size of scotland. Sure there may be certain things that get called typically English, but within England there are certain things that get called typically Essex, and within Essex there are things that get called typically Basildon. Even within the smallest community your experiences of culture may be different according to how rich you are, what your job is, your gender, your sexuality etc etc.

The similarities with race end there though. Obviously I wouldn't ignore anti racist struggles just because I know that race is a bourgeois concept. But while good anti-racism is about eradicating an inequality and proving how the race difference is meaningless, struggles against cultural imperialism tend to go the other way because just by defining something like "Scottish culture" you are defining a difference. I'm not saying yous (Anarcho_Al, nuclearcivvy and Nick Durie) are in favour of creating barriers in the working class, I just think that could be the outcome of campaigning on a cultural basis.

Sure, if there are policies or practices which means over some issue workers in Scotland may be getting a worse deal than workers in England (and I'll admit I'm pretty ignorant about that) by all means fight it, and I would be right on your side. But I just don't see the point in framing it in something as shifting and potentially divisive as culture.

henry
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Oct 24 2004 13:01

Mixing in a anarchist working class struggle with aspects of nationalism and culture is totally the wrong thing to do.

I'm Scottish, but I believe if a working class struggle was happening in Argentina then I would feel that struggle was part of my struggle. The Zapistas are struggling to preserve their way of life, but in doing so they have turned it into part of a global struggle, where their enemies are identified as our enemies. They are not battling for peculiar notions of nationalism.

If a anarchist struggle happened in Scotland we would need to internationalise it and bring in the working class from all parts of the globe.

It would have to be viewed a part of a international battle against international capitalism.

Anarchist worldwide have the same set of values, and it is these values that will unite as all in the struggle against the international global system as ruled by the G8.

Battling on nationalist grounds is narrow and unimaginative and counter-productive.

ab
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Oct 24 2004 15:35

Nationalism is shit. Neonazis are shit. And Anarcho-nationalists are even worse as they want to bring right wing tendencies into our movement.

There is a difference between independence and nationalism, and nationalism is definitely crap and should not be accepted in our movement.

This Dayschool seems to be the candidate for one of the worst anarchist gatherings ever had in Scotland - and this now when the G8 is about to come and we should really get off our asses and do stuff practically instead of mouthing off about such irrelevant nonsense.

Anyway, I looked forward to invite activists from England to the Scottish Anarchist Dayschool, but with workshops like that, it is too embarrasing, as they are probably be blamed as being the "oppressor" or something, similar as when the "Dissent!" gathering happened in Edinburgh, where people were attacking the facilitators for being all from England, whilst none of the mourning complainers showed any interest in working on the agenda, invitations, planning of the meeting beforehand.

I find this nationalism so crap and useless, it is used to divide us instead of struggeling together.

If people want to support independence struggle such as Basque Country, Zapatista, Palestine, they should say so and not just make up a new ideology such as anarcho-nationalism (very popular in the German Neonazi scene & reminds of Mussolini, who was an anarchist before he became a fascist; guess Nick might be in danger to swim in the same league.)

redyred
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Oct 24 2004 18:45
ab wrote:
If people want to support independence struggle such as Basque Country, Zapatista, Palestine, they should say so and not just make up a new ideology such as anarcho-nationalism (very popular in the German Neonazi scene & reminds of Mussolini, who was an anarchist before he became a fascist; guess Nick might be in danger to swim in the same league.)

That's going a bit far accusing them of that ab. Nick might be a bit misguided but its a pretty major thing saying someone is close to being a neo-nazi. Anyway, I doubt Mussolini (who I thought was a communist first, not an anarchist) started his descent into fascism organising workshops on "The working class and the struggle for Italian identity".

Nick Durie
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Oct 26 2004 09:13

It seems comrades have not understood my posts. Perhaps my style of writing has become too obscure or perhaps they have not read what I have actually posted, because i am seeing ideas represented as my own which actually bear no resemblance to what I was talking about.

At any rate let's examine my beliefs again:-

1. I do not believe in a Scottish state.

2. I do not beleive that there is "a Scottish people", but rather that there are different peoples who live in Scotland who, for one reason or another, have some degree of shared experience. I do not for one instance (as one straw man suggested) believe that the identity of a country dweller is the same as someone who stays in a city, nor do I think that there is much resemblance between the lives of Govan children to a Hebridean farmer.

What I did however suggest is that there was _some_ validity to the 'nationalist' argument. But before we get to that, especially given as some comrades seem to want to deliberately distort what I am saying in order to pidgeonhole me, I had better explain what I mean by nationalism.

There are two currents of thought that self-identify as "nationalism", and they _are not_ the same. What it most commonly refers to in Scottish discourse is "independent nationalism", the kind of nationalism which is about breaking up states, and giving greater autonomy to smaller units of people, who thru centralization of large states are not adequately represented.

The other is the "nationalism" that I see comrades refering to - this is the nationalism that constructs fictitious peoples and then says they have a right to all the earth; this latter kind does indeed tend towards fascism in its fullest form.

I think these are definite different currents, and while I don't dispute that people can have both currents of thought operating simultaneously I think the former tendency (the "independent nationalism") offers an interesting analysis which is valid, and from which anarchists can learn lessons.

Those lessons are cultural sensitivity, historical analysis and some degree of tactical awareness around these issues. I don't think anarchists should join the SNP. I don't think they should take up arms against the English - these are straw men, and are not what I was suggesting. Indeed AB seems to suggest that nationalists see the English as the oppressor, which demonstrates very little understanding of the issue. There may be some who think that, altho I doubt they'd find any inside the SNP or the SSP, the Greens or any other "independent nationalist" grouping in Scotland.

Around 27% of the electorate always vote SNP - are comrades seriously suggesting that all these people and their thoughts can be dismissed as right-wing?

As far as AB's suggestion that I might be demonstrating similar tendencies as Benito Mussolini, I suggest they actually read what I've written and then pick sentences/paragraphs which they deem to show fascist leanings. If they can't do that, then I will ask for a retraction of that aspersion, and ask in future that before spouting dogma from their arsehole they actually analyse what people are saying. As it happens however I agree with them about the Dissent! conference. I think a lot of Scots there showed definite tendencies towards a crisis of confidence. The English anarchist movement has its own problems, but Scots anarchists should not respond to its better organisation and aplomb by saying "That is not how we do things in Scotland." Comrades here should instead concentrate on being the best they can be, and on learning lessons from the English as well as their own movement.

Solidarity, and a sincere hope that comrades actually bother to read this and my other posts and direct their comments to them,

Nick Durie