The end of Black Flag?

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Mike Harman
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Nov 28 2006 16:00
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do we need to create a closed group so we discuss such matters?

If that's necessary, it could be done on here. I'd like to be in on this (even if I can't offer much practical help outside web stuff at the moment and some writing eventually), but I really don't want to be on another e-list.

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Rob Ray
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Nov 28 2006 16:05

Actually I think it’s much more to the point to have it open, if for no other reason than that the process of discussing and organising it may be of interest to people outside of interested parties (eg. finding cheap printers, interesting writers etc). Maybe it could be merged with the Freedom forum, which is pretty slow, as a sort of general hardcopy publications forum?

Mike Harman
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Nov 28 2006 16:07
Saii wrote:
Actually I think it’s much more to the point to have it open, if for no other reason than that the process of discussing and organising it may be of interest to people outside of interested parties (eg. finding cheap printers, interesting writers etc). Maybe it could be merged with the Freedom forum, which is pretty slow, as a sort of general hardcopy publications forum?

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Pilgrim
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Nov 28 2006 16:22
Saii wrote:
Actually I think it’s much more to the point to have it open, if for no other reason than that the process of discussing and organising it may be of interest to people outside of interested parties (eg. finding cheap printers, interesting writers etc). Maybe it could be merged with the Freedom forum, which is pretty slow, as a sort of general hardcopy publications forum?

Makes sense to me.

When's the Freedom Press website going to be back up again, by the way?

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Rob Ray
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Nov 28 2006 16:45

Not sure, tis being dealt with by someone else atm.

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Rob Ray
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Nov 28 2006 20:19

In case these two threads get seperated, the dummies are on http://libcom.org/forums/organise/black-flag-dummies]Here

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georgestapleton
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Nov 28 2006 20:41

The dummies look really good.

However, perhaps it would be a good idea to do it as A5 or something smaller than A4? More like mute ... or glamour.

I don't have the time until the summer to do any writing but I'd definitely be interested in doing some afterwards. For example, I think the cover is awful. Friedman was not where the 20th Century went wrong unless the development of orthodox keynesian fiscal policy was where the 20th century was right. But that is something I'd like to write about The demise of keynesianism and the emergence of monetarism and new classical economics mark i and mark ii. Or I'd like to do a review of ben bernanke's 'essays on the great depression'. Bernanke's the chair of the fed (Alan Gennspan's successor) I had a look at the book and it may be possible to critique it from a class struggle perspective and might be worthwhile cos it'd give a class struggle introduction to post monetarist monetary policy.

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Rob Ray
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Nov 28 2006 20:55

Before you get too far into criticising the (non existant) content, I did say that the sole purpose of that front cover was to provoke a response, which is best done with a sensational headline.

Jesus do you people never read?

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georgestapleton
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Nov 28 2006 20:58

no

Pilgrim
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Nov 28 2006 21:06
Saii wrote:
Before you get too far into criticising the (non existant) content, I did say that the sole purpose of that front cover was to provoke a response, which is best done with a sensational headline.

Jesus do you people never read?

It makes sense to me.

A headline is supposed to hook people (especially casual readers just glancing through at a newsstand or whatever) and make them want to read more.

Something rather unlikely to happpen with a dissertation on Keynesian economics.

martinh
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Nov 28 2006 21:25
MalFunction wrote:
content - does everything need approval by everyone involved / by editor / other options?

UP for discussion AFAIC

MalFunction wrote:
pagination / size - what's the optimal page / size / uk postage rate combination?

Probably changed since Royal Mail began its war on small publishers

MalFunction wrote:
subscriptions - does anyone have the latest BF subscribers list or do we start from beginning?

I do, though it is quite out of date and I've no idea if anyone has paid anything in a while (they ought not to have cos it hasn't come out)

MalFunction wrote:
what's the state of the finances?

Bank balance isn't in the red but I've no idea how much is owed to printers.

Regards,

Martin

raw
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Nov 28 2006 22:57
georgestapleton wrote:
But that is something I'd like to write about The demise of keynesianism and the emergence of monetarism and new classical economics mark i and mark ii. Or I'd like to do a review of ben bernanke's 'essays on the great depression'.

God, I'm sure theres something more exciting you can write about unless its going to speak to the same 25 people in the UK.

Stick a picture of UK solidiers with the slogan- "bring our boys home - in body bags!"

Fucking excellent idea huh?

Raw -->awaits 400 posted critiques and 100 references to Zizek

MalFunction
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Nov 29 2006 14:32

thanks for info.

hope it helps people flesh out the idea a bit.

reviews - any particular books / cds / dvds people want to see reviewed?

will the freedom bookshop supply details of new items / have an ad with new titles?

do we keep it to UK produced / available items or world-wide?

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the button
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Nov 29 2006 14:48
Saii wrote:
Before you get too far into criticising the (non existant) content, I did say that the sole purpose of that front cover was to provoke a response, which is best done with a sensational headline.

Jesus do you people never read?

Yeah, but why's some of it in Latin?

wink

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Rob Ray
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Nov 29 2006 19:09
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Stick a picture of UK solidiers with the slogan- "bring our boys home - in body bags!"

Fucking excellent idea huh?

I'd go for something a bit more subtle, maybe a pic of Noel Gallagher with "Was Noel right about soldiers 'whinging'?". Problem with direct attacks in the vein you're suggesting is they tend to provide too much ammo to the opposition. As our outreach is neither as widespread, flashy or repetitive as theirs it'd give them an instant winning hand for propaganda. In the context of Class War it might work, I dunno but that's aimed differently to how Black Flag has tended to work thus far...

Quote:
will the freedom bookshop supply details of new items / have an ad with new titles?

Certainly the former (we're gonna be doing it in Freedom soon so it'd be an easy job wink) would have to see about the latter.

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jef costello
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Nov 29 2006 21:17

Dummies look great.
Any chance I could get a link to a readable copy of the cayenne article? It looks really interesting.

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Rob Ray
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Nov 30 2006 00:59

Here

MalFunction
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Nov 30 2006 13:06

full-colour black flag

we do irony too!

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Felix Frost
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Dec 1 2006 13:07

Any thoughts about making it into an international magazine? If the project is administered through the internet, and people don't have to fly to London for editorial meetings, this should be quite feasable.

Mike Harman
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Dec 1 2006 14:03
Felix Frost wrote:
Any thoughts about making it into an international magazine? If the project is administered through the internet, and people don't have to fly to London for editorial meetings, this should be quite feasable.

This was the suggestion on the thread that Skraeling started. Sounds good to me, and would allow for a much larger pool of writers so potentially less pressure.

Could also look into POD/print on demand publishing - so could have local distribution(say UK/rest of Europe, US/CA, Aus/NZ).

Anarcho
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Dec 2 2006 23:19

An international collective is possible. If anyone is interested in joining an email group for Black Flag pleasd email us at: Black_Flag@lycos.co.uk

However, we will need a physical group to do things like mailouts, distribution, that sort of thing. I'll call a meeting for the new year.

AR
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Dec 2 2006 23:25

Honestly, I do not like new Freedom that much.

Most importantly, it focuses on UK, not too interesting for readers abroad. This was never case with Black Flag, which was always international as fuck. BF has had more interested to international networking than most of the internationals together.

Freedom also tries to be anarchist Guardian or something. Perhaps they may appeal to people "outside scene" and convince them that anarchist are smart, I do not know. However I would like to read journal made by anarchist for anarchist about anarchist movement. Like Abolishing the Borders from Below but written by native speakers to make it look more smart:)

Mike Harman
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Dec 3 2006 00:00
Anarcho wrote:
However, we will need a physical group to do things like mailouts, distribution, that sort of thing. I'll call a meeting for the new year.

On that note, Print On Demand:

https://www.lightningsource.com/index.htm
http://www.lulu.com/uk

mute magazine has some general information on it:
http://www.openmute.org/pod/?PAGE=podservices

This'd have the advantage of not having to worry about print-run size (since you can always print more) - and also back issues never going out of print. I think they do mail-outs as well for individual orders (although probably not subscriptions, but then could bulk order for that).

If POD worked it could save a lot of the donkey work.

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madhatterz
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Dec 3 2006 06:07

Though Ive never had the pleasure of reading black flag I hope you dont call it in. after reading this Id like to help out too in any way I can.

35 years is a long good record and 35 more years would be a even better record ^^

I hope it focuses more on international and less on local UK stuff. hehe maybe because im not living in uk and not from uk. however maybe also because there is already several UK based publications. And in many countries there are none publications on a regular basis.

Id like to see black flag issues in other languages
(translated). and if it isnt publicated to often that is fully possible. I could easily transalte it to norwegian and possible korean (with some help).

Personally i think it should come out once a month or so .. and if I can help out in any way, then i'll commit to it. smile

it could be a idea to have articles on human rights, like from HRW if possible like focus articles. though I cant really say very much since i havent seen any of the publications yet of black flag.

Peace
madhatterz

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Rob Ray
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Dec 3 2006 08:43
Quote:
Honestly, I do not like new Freedom that much.

Most importantly, it focuses on UK, not too interesting for readers abroad. This was never case with Black Flag, which was always international as fuck. BF has had more interested to international networking than most of the internationals together.

Freedom also tries to be anarchist Guardian or something. Perhaps they may appeal to people "outside scene" and convince them that anarchist are smart, I do not know. However I would like to read journal made by anarchist for anarchist about anarchist movement. Like Abolishing the Borders from Below but written by native speakers to make it look more smar

Uh well thanks for the unneccesary and off-track bitch, perhaps I could direct you to pages 2, 4, 5, 6 and 8 (7 is reviews) as well as (usually) the bottom right hand article on page 1? All of which are specifically for or regularly feature internationalist content? Bearing in mind that Freedom is an 8-page paper of course and sells largely in the UK.

Which bit of the paper have you read, just the front page? And no we're not trying to be the anarchist Guardian, that would suggest we're liberals. Freedom carries more anarchist-specific content than any other paper in the country and more class struggle anarchist content than anything bar maybe libcom, but we try and outreach as well because we're not self-ghettoized.

You think that because Freedom doesn't carry entirely the content you want all the time it's not a good paper. Sorry that's bollocks. It's not designed to repeat indymedia and constantly just big up the mediocre efforts of micro-groupings of activists, it's designed to cover important stories that don't get mainstream media coverage, alongside national and international struggle, and then we put in the best of anarchist practice and theory as well, because unlike you, the collective can differentiate between the importance of the destruction of the NHS and what 'anarchists' get up to on Buy Nothing day.

If Black Flag only writes about the anarchist movement I will have no further involvement in it, because it will have no actual function, frankly and will don nothing to help us achieve any objective except collective back-patting.

I'm not that bothered about it being done internationally one way or the other tbh, there are pros and cons to the idea.

MalFunction
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Dec 4 2006 10:50

international BF?

suggest the pages for each issue be made available to people in other english speaking countries for them to run off as many copies as they need. they can substitute local material if they wish.

people can subscribe to whichever editions they want if they want print copies posted to them.

as for other languages - if anyone wants to use the material to translate for their own publications that's fine. (be good to get some stuff translated into english for eng-lang eds as well)
----------

distribution in uk.

will AK be taking some?

does freedom have up to date list of retailers / groups / societies / individuals who would be willing to take multiple copies? (sale or return or firm sale - In my experience sor copies are usually unusable when returned)

re subscribers - suggest everyone on the current list is sent one with a subscription renewal form. (pricing £2.50 in shops - sub 4 for a tenner?)

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georgestapleton
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Dec 5 2006 21:26
raw wrote:
georgestapleton wrote:
But that is something I'd like to write about The demise of keynesianism and the emergence of monetarism and new classical economics mark i and mark ii. Or I'd like to do a review of ben bernanke's 'essays on the great depression'.

God, I'm sure theres something more exciting you can write about unless its going to speak to the same 25 people in the UK.

Stick a picture of UK solidiers with the slogan- "bring our boys home - in body bags!"

Fucking excellent idea huh?

Raw -->awaits 400 posted critiques and 100 references to Zizek

You are a funny one.

I mean yeah there are a lot of more exciting things i can do such as scratching my arse, but that doesn't really do much to develop anarchist theory does it?

And aren't you the same bloke who I had a rather sensible discussion with after the immaterial labour conference and about post-keynesian capitalism and how we need to understand it? Aren't you the same bloke who started this thread http://libcom.org/node/8251 ?

Is it the case that we should leave theory to sexy italian marxists? Who for the record have been spouting shite for the last 10-20 years.

Personally I think that just as people like Tronti, Negri, Braverman and (too a lesser extent) Sweezy gave a class struggle analysis of keynesian/welfare state/social democratic society. To day we need an explanation of what happened to it, and where are we today. Some good work has been done on this by Cleaver, the Aufheben and Wildcat people in particular but with exception of a two or three articles by Cleaver nothing has been done on making post-keynesian economics and with that post-keynesian planning understandable to anachists.

I mean sure we can make teeshirts saying Bush is a scumbag. Nothing wrong with that, but seeing as it is believed by very many economists, capitalists, business men and the various other people who you know run the world that the most powerful position in the US is not the presidency but chaimanship of the Federal Reserve. Surely it is worth at least knowing why these people think that. And considering that unlike bush we cannot say that bernanke is an idiot perhaps we should ask what this man thinks. Surely this is especially the case when he has his position primarily becasue of the essays he wrote about the great depression, a period you should know is one of the high water marks of class struggle. And not only that but the man, from what i have heard, effectively gives an inverted class struggle analysis of the great depression.

So yeah you are right we should say.

WAR IS BAD

FUCK BUSH

And you are right scratching my arse is more exciting than reading monetary theory.

But you know what we're not going to change the world by shouting the loudest. We are going to change the world by understanding when to struggle, how to struggle and then winning those struggles.

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madhatterz
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Jan 22 2007 01:42

is anything come out of this discussion. id like to help out with keeping black flag goin

Anarcho
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Jan 22 2007 10:34

I will be getting a meeting sorted out for the end of January. Email the Black Flag address so I can keep you informed.

Anarcho
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Feb 16 2007 10:35

okay, I've been pretty busy. But i'm going to book a meeting at Freedom for discussing the fate of Black Flag for the end of March. I will post details when I have some. For everyone who has emailed BF, I will reply in due course.

Sorry for the apparent lack of action, but I'm been very busy trying to get An Anarchist FAQ (www.anarchistfaq.org) revised for publication.