The Commune

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Tojiah
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Sep 13 2008 10:15
tigersiskillers wrote:
I actually stated that "I wouldn't say I'm in favour of the palestinian nation having self-determination. I'd like to see palestinian people not get fucked over." I can't see why that equates to not "being able to show that we also have the basic humanity to give a shit about the suffering of people in e.g. Palestine."

I'm probably less hardline on this issue than many other people on Libcom - I have no real problem with the idea that people fighting a oppressive regime under the banner of national liberation might end up better off, even though they end up under a leadership of locally sourced bourgeois rulers. But again, why the phrase in the platform? Why not have a commitment to internationalism, but realise that sometimes in real life things can get a bit messy - that yay, these people's kids aren't being shot,but boo, class relations haven't substantially changed?

Regarding the situation in Palestine, you could also point out that for quite a few months, in Gaza, Hamas and Fatah were shooting way more kids than the Israelis were. There's no guarantee that if Israel pulls out of the West Bank, as well, accepting a Palestinian state, that this same situation will not arise there. The relevant national liberationists have already proven themselves to be just as murderous as their alleged enemies. They're just waiting for their own crack at the whip.

Probably Your C...
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Sep 16 2008 21:35
jura wrote:
Probably Your Class Enemy wrote:
If they did not possess a strong social/tribal ethic then how come they still exist?

Do you really think that the existence of a nation depends on the ideas "they" have ("ethic")?

Short answer; in some cases certainly; this is a hard argument to continue which is one of the reasons I'm exploring it

1) the Basque seperatists; Looney Terrorists that they are now did continue the good work of killing judges and generals in Fascist Spain long after the socialists, communists and anarchists threw in the towel.

2)Palestine exists even if only in the minds of its resistance rather than a Tesco's Orange grove.

3)China is now a space-faring superpower able to feed its population, Vietnam has no foreign armies on her soil

4)I could find some more examples but I cant be arsed

posi
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Sep 17 2008 08:16

It's commonplace to say that nations are 'imagined communities' - i.e. that they exist in the conception which people have that they exist. It's a different (and wrong) thing to say that they're based on distinct 'ethics' - i.e. sets of moral attitudes - or 'ideas' in a general sense.

Probably Your C...
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Sep 17 2008 20:47

Just thought of another example; the Sicilian Mafia;

Formed as a working class resistance movement against the landowning aristocracy; held together by a hyperfanatical allegiance to the motherland. Funny how things turn out

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jura
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Sep 18 2008 11:27

PYCE: But you surely do believe that there is some material content to the ideas?

Probably Your C...
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Sep 18 2008 22:34
jura wrote:
PYCE: But you surely do believe that there is some material content to the ideas?

Which ideas?

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cantdocartwheels
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Sep 21 2008 17:05
Probably Your Class Enemy wrote:
jura wrote:
Probably Your Class Enemy wrote:
If they did not possess a strong social/tribal ethic then how come they still exist?

Do you really think that the existence of a nation depends on the ideas "they" have ("ethic")?

Short answer; in some cases certainly; this is a hard argument to continue which is one of the reasons I'm exploring it

1) the Basque seperatists; Looney Terrorists that they are now did continue the good work of killing judges and generals in Fascist Spain long after the socialists, communists and anarchists threw in the towel.

2)Palestine exists even if only in the minds of its resistance rather than a Tesco's Orange grove.

3)China is now a space-faring superpower able to feed its population, Vietnam has no foreign armies on her soil

4)I could find some more examples but I cant be arsed

Every nation state requires an ideology or a set of national myths on whcih the ruling class bases its legitimacy. However the arguement that a state rests on the ethical cohesion and moral substance of its population is generally the logic of the extreme right, it doesn;t have much bearing on reality. You can;t defeat economic or military realty through ''strength of national character''.

For example Colonialism didn't collpase after WW2 because of the strength of characer of various nations, it ended because in some cases it wasn;t economically viable and in others the arms that the soviet union and revolutionary china would have provided woud have simply seen the occupying powers garrisons wiped out. As a more modern example we could look at the slow decline of the US and the ascension of china currently taking place, despite the feverish imaginings of varous neo-conservatives and other leo strauss lovers the US can;t change that situation simply by re-inventing itself in terms of a national myth..

Anyways this thread should kinda be split because this commune group sound pretty interesting. Though i would like to know why they link to the labour representation committee, hat would seem a bit at odds with other ideas expressed on the site.

Ilan
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Jan 24 2010 20:08

Some people who honestly reject nationalism and the "national liberation" idea, still cling to the "self determination" which is not much better.

To oppose the Serbian harassment of the Kosovars, the Darfurians by Sudan, and the Palestinians by Israel is a mast for us. However, to call for the end of it and for the driving out of the oppressors should be in the name of freedom and end to oppression and exploitation and transfer by the external "capitalist national entity" - not in the name of the "self-determination" of the nationalist spectrum of ideas.

When the external oppression and exploitation and transfer end, the life of the people will be improved, but the only "self-determination" that will materialize will be that of the ruling elites.

In Palestine-Israel the AAtW join the Palestinian popular comities in the struggle to end occupation and specific harassments - no in support of the Palestinian state or other capitalist order that will materialize after it.

The nationalist and Israeli leftists who are for states call for two states - we call for end of occupation.