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Red & Black Coordination

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akai
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Nov 16 2013 09:49

Only thought is that anarchosyndicalists need to distance themselves from organizations which are hierarchically based and which have people participating in elections or participating in state or capitalist collaboration.

MT
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Nov 16 2013 16:30
iexist wrote:
This gonna turn into an IWA vs SAC debate isn't it?

even if it does, it is an important issue. or you think that akai's post is useless and one should not comment on the RaBC?

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OliverTwister
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Nov 16 2013 19:22

Something that I've always wondered about... With the CGT it is very easy to point out the ways in which they are compromised - they accept money from the state and companies, they legitimize the disempowering legal system of the Spanish state, although according to their constitution they are supposed to rotate officers and paid positions it is an open secret that some of its structures have career officers and staff. These are all very concrete things which CGT and its supporters can't deny (except maybe the careerism, I was told that by some members of Solidaridad Obrera when explaining why they are not in CGT).

I've never heard a specific way that SAC collaborates with capitalism or the state, or accepts money. Only insinuations. I have heard from some members that the structure is hierarchical, but never any form of collaboration. They do still have some staff but they did reduce this significantly a few years ago and several of the pro-staff locals split.

Regarding the meeting in Poznan, I'm curious to see what is (and also what isn't) discussed, and any decisions that come out. I'll wait until it's over to comment or speculate though.

akai
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Nov 17 2013 09:31

I wasn't necessarily speaking about SAC. And it is easy enough to see what the resolutions were of the last meetings and see that nothing came out of any of it. I haven't seen any real action of this Coordination since it started and the only thing that counts for me is that. And in this country the only international solidarity I ever saw with IWW came from outside this Coordination.

With CGT and IP it is very easy to make a list of ways they are compromised. As far as the others go, they are accepting of this but I do not necessarily comment on their own internal politics, just their international ones.

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Chilli Sauce
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Nov 17 2013 12:10
iexist wrote:
This gonna turn into an IWA vs SAC debate isn't it?

I don't think it has to. And I think there's much larger problems in the R&BC than that SAC - some really nasty ex-IWA splits who've undermined IWA strikes, for example.

Anyway, regarding SAC, my understanding is that they administer welfare or pension provisions for the state. I don't know if that's part of the requirement of being a registered trade union in Sweden or something, but I can see what anarchists see this as a compromising situation.

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Ed
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Nov 17 2013 13:38
akai wrote:
Only thought is that anarchosyndicalists need to distance themselves from organizations which are hierarchically based and which have people participating in elections or participating in state or capitalist collaboration.

But at the same time, I think it's worth bearing in mind that on a local level there has been an increase in co-operation between some CNT and CGT groups (like, for instance, that general strike of a couple of years ago but also smaller, local initiatives).. this came out of the fact that during the Indignados movement, at the assemblies, CNT and CGT members were often putting forward the same arguments.. this doesn't mean there are no problems with how the CGT operates (or in how it came into being) but I think this flat "we must distance ourselves" approach is daft and driven more by bitterness and rivalry than any principles.

There are some groups in the R&B Co-ordination that do good organising (I'm thinking specifically of SAC and CGT here) while also doing some things that I disagree with.. but those things don't delegitimse them as militant workers' organisation and so I'm still interested in hearing updates from them..

(That said, there are some groups in the R&B that I think are dodgy as fuck and I think it does no credit to groups like SAC or CGT to fraternise with them.. I'm thinking specifically of USI Italy, who seem to exist solely to destabilise the work of USI-AIT)..

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Serge Forward
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Nov 17 2013 15:14
Quote:
some really nasty ex-IWA splits who've undermined IWA strikes, for example.

I'd be interested in hearing more about this.

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AES
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Nov 17 2013 17:22

I know CNT Vignoles from France were angry about the IWW (USA) setting up an IWW administration in France, how has that gone? And also, how does the IWW (USA) and IWW (UK) reconcile this competing IWW (France) presence to CNT Vignoles at Red & Black Coordination meetings?

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Nov 17 2013 17:38

First I've heard of an IWW in France. A few years ago there were talks with a syndicalist group within the CGT known as the Comités Syndicalistes Révolutionnaires (CSR) but nowt came of it. Just looked at both the American and UK websites and no mention of a French IWW anywhere. Tell me more.

Anyway.... nasty ex-IWA splits... who are we talking about?

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Nov 17 2013 17:42

It has nothing to do with the IWA

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Serge Forward
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Nov 17 2013 17:51

I know. I was referring to Chilli Sauce's earlier comment. That aside, what's the score with this French IWW?

syndicalist
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Nov 17 2013 17:54
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I've never heard a specific way that SAC collaborates with capitalism or the state, or accepts money

.

No time at the moment to get the links.But there's plenty of stuff here on Libcom that one can search out (via google: try SAC and Unemployment Fund).

It is factual that the SAC administer Unemployment Fund. It is factual that elements of some of the international travel (for education pursposes) have been funded by the Swedish state. It is factual that these elements are in line with what other trade unions do in Sweden and are a product of
historic 1950s compromises.

That said, the SAC is the only syndicalist oriented union in Sweden...one, in spite of its compromises, has a 100 year history, rooted in the class struggle. And, in my personal opinion, is prolly a place for Swedish anarcho-syndicalists to agitate.

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AES
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Nov 17 2013 17:54

That was my question. If I was a member of IWW, I would want to know?

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Serge Forward
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Nov 17 2013 18:02

Er... wait a minute. You said:

AES wrote:
I know CNT Vignoles from France were angry about the IWW (USA) setting up an IWW administration in France, how has that gone? And also, how does the IWW (USA) and IWW (UK) reconcile this competing IWW (France) presence to CNT Vignoles at Red & Black Coordination meetings?

Yet there is no mention of a French IWW on either the US or UK IWW sites and I checked CSR's site for good measure but still nothing. Also googled IWW France. Nothing. So unless someone else has any evidence of this mysterious French IWW, then perhaps it doesn't actually exist?

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AES
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Nov 17 2013 18:12

So instead of actually asking about the question I raise, within the IWW in the USA and UK and also to the CNT Vignoles, which your organisation (IWW) is participating in a coordination to "discuss common campaigns and projects" you just prefer to dismiss my question as some made up lie?

akai
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Nov 17 2013 18:30

People are recruited into the Wobblies now before there are the requisite number to make a group. This is in a few countries. They probably don't have any official status.

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Chilli Sauce
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Nov 17 2013 20:21
Serge Forward wrote:
Quote:
some really nasty ex-IWA splits who've undermined IWA strikes, for example.

I'd be interested in hearing more about this.

To be honest, I only know the stories second hand, but I certainly had in mind the same sort of stuff Ed mentioned in his post:

Ed wrote:
I'm thinking specifically of USI Italy, who seem to exist solely to destabilise the work of USI-AIT.

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Serge Forward
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Nov 17 2013 20:45
AES wrote:
So instead of actually asking about the question I raise, within the IWW in the USA and UK and also to the CNT Vignoles, which your organisation (IWW) is participating in a coordination to "discuss common campaigns and projects" you just prefer to dismiss my question as some made up lie?

AES, I dismiss your question not because it's a lie - I have no idea how true your comments are. I dismiss it because, so far, it's a wholly unsubstantiated allegation. If you have any real evidence, links, quotes, or an actual smoking gun, then I'd be interested in what you have to say. For now though, it just smells of sectarian tittle-tattle.

Chilli, thanks for the clarification. I missed Ed's post and was unaware of the USI Italy.

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Nov 17 2013 21:24

The reason I asked about the CNT Vignoles and an IWW administration in France a few years ago, was because it is relevant to a Red & Black Coordination meeting and IWW Administrations in countries where syndicalists have a presence which came up in History of the IWW in Chile thread and The IWW & the Search for an International Policy: 1905-1935.

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OliverTwister
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Nov 17 2013 21:55

But there is no French IWW...

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Serge Forward
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Nov 17 2013 23:34

So what AES said is a made up lie then.

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AES
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Nov 18 2013 00:00

I expected that this was an issue to be discussed at this "coordination" and accept that there is no IWW France now, fine, so the problem between them was resolved. I find the fact that no one knows that there was an issue about CNT Vignoles complaining about an IWW administration in France a few years ago to be far more disturbing than anything else.

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OliverTwister
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Nov 18 2013 02:10
AES wrote:
I expected that this was an issue to be discussed at this "coordination" and accept that there is no IWW France now, fine, so the problem between them was resolved. I find the fact that no one knows that there was an issue about CNT Vignoles complaining about an IWW administration in France a few years ago to be far more disturbing than anything else.

There has never been an IWW administration in France. There was a small group which one or two members tried to recruit as a French Administration but this never came to fruition.

If CNT Vignoles had a complaint, then surely you can quote it here and satisfy all of our curiosity.

akai
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Nov 18 2013 09:01

I think the confusion came because there are individuals trying to make IWW who are somehow already considered Wobblies and present themselves as such, and this is not only in France because when we heard last year about Lithuanian wobblies we learned it was only 3 people, but they were already presenting themselves as the IWW. (Don't know the present state of that group.)

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Serge Forward
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Nov 18 2013 10:21

Confusion? Surely AES should clear up any confusion before making such unsubstantiated allegations? Akai, are you saying you know something about this mysterious 'French IWW' then? If yes, please let us know what's what.

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altemark
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Nov 18 2013 14:56
Quote:
That said, the SAC is the only syndicalist oriented union in Sweden...one, in spite of its compromises, has a 100 year history, rooted in the class struggle. And, in my personal opinion, is prolly a place for Swedish anarcho-syndicalists to agitate.

You pretty much nailed it there - except for the fact that SAC isn't the only syndicalist union. Since the 90's tiny regional networks of ex-SAC locals have popped into existence (that still consider themselves syndicalists or anarchosyndicalists). For example Stockholms Fackliga Samorganisation ("The Stockholm Labour Coordination" - homepage last updated in 2011, though) and Huddinge LS (which recently secured employment for one of their member who was illegally sacked, so they are still active) which in turn both are part of the Nätverket Fria Syndikalister ("The Free Syndicalists Network").

Then there's also the case of the Stockholm local Västerorts LS, whose members are predominantly immigrant workers in the hotel and cleaning industries, most of whom probably remained in the local after it was kicked out of the SAC after an internal investigation revealed economic activities of doubtful nature, democratic deficiencies, and the fact that individual members were known by the elected officers to have been involved in exploiting other immigrant workers - most of these had their membership revoked, but some, for some reason, didn't. This whole thing played itself out earlier this year, and featured heavily in the media, so it was pretty much agony involved (especially since Västerorts LS did LOTS of _very good_ stuff as well). It probably merits a longer summary in English somewhere else, but I don't feel qualified to try to give an account of the situation in its entirety. Anyway, technically it would be wrong to say that SAC the ONLY syndicalist union - but it's the only one organizing thousands of workers.

Back to the subject of the thread - it rather seems like as to what kind of effective solidarity work the Red and Black Coordination can produce remains an open question, no matter the level of perfection/non-perfection of its individual participant organizations. I'm looking forward to more reports on what was said and decided on during the meeting (actually, I'm curious about all these kinds of attempts of building real international solidarity between any libertarian union and propaganda organizations!). The only thing I've seen come out of it thus far is this poster in solidarity of Western Saharan political prisoners:

akai
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Nov 18 2013 18:39

Am not against making a solidarity poster, but if that's all that really came out of some years of meetings, it is not much to talk about.

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altemark
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Nov 18 2013 19:23

Akai: Yeah, if that's the case, I agree.

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altemark
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Oct 24 2016 21:25
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(en) Greece, ese: Red and Black support about Abd Elasalam Ahmed Eldanf (gr) [machine translation]
Date Mon, 24 Oct 2016 13:41:11 +0300

At dawn Thursday 15/09/2016 in Piacenza, Italy, the company bosses of GLS/SEAM murdered the Egyptian laborer Abd Elsalam Ahmed Eldanf who participated in the picket line of the strike. ---- He was a member of the USB(Trade Union Association of Base-Italy) and father of five children. ---- The ruthless employers, with the support of the Italian government violated labor rights...to death. They did not hesitate to order one of the truck drivers to move menacingly with his track against the striking workers, trying to break the picket line. The result of this action was Abd Elsalam Ahmed Eldanf to be struck and killed. The Police was present all the time and watched in apathy the murderous attack. ---- We denounce and condemn the murderous act of the employer Company GLS. ---- We denounce the murderous attacks of any employer against the struggling proletarians.

We are against the murderers of our class: the employers, the governments, the states and their repressive forces that support and serve the bloody profit of Capitalists.
We stand in solidarity with the class struggle of the workers of GLS/SEAM company and in solidarity with the USB labor syndicate.
We participate and support each class and social struggle of opressed proletarians.
Punish the murderous employers.
Counterattack with class and social struggles, against the scum of the Capital and their servants.

ese.inter@gmail.com
international@cnt-f.org;
international@ozzip.pl
sekretariatet@sac.se
solidarity@iww.org
soliobrerainternacional@gmail.com
sp-internacional@cgt.org.es
????????: Abd Elsalam Ahmed Eldanf, Anarchosyndicalism, ESE, Red and Black Coordination, USB