Planning a libertarian response to the London attacks

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Steven.
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Jul 8 2005 09:31
Planning a libertarian response to the London attacks

What should we do?

I really think we should do something, and quickly. I was in the US during 9-11, and I saw how rapidly the media twisted people's genuine feelings of shock, disbelief and horror into almost rabid hatred and racism, and so feel it's really important to move quickly. People's reactions to this tragedy could go either way - like in Spain blaming the government for making us a target, or into anti-Arab/Muslim sentiment and support for more aggressive foreign policy and more repressive domestic legislation. I don't know what's going to happen...

I've emailed the StWC to see if they're planning some kind of demonstration... but the only really concrete thing I can think of right now that's achievable could be a flyposter campaign in London, but that'd only be useful if people were willing to help put them up...

What stuff can people think of - is it worth trying anything?

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the button
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Jul 8 2005 09:36

What would it say on the posters? confused

Edited to add: genuine question. Not having a go.

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Steven.
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Jul 8 2005 09:40
the button wrote:
What would it say on the posters? confused

Edited to add: genuine question. Not having a go.

Something like the spanish left did, trying to put the blame on the govt making us a target by going to war with iraq + afghanistan.

Have only got the Sun today, it mentions that argument but says it's from Galloway and says saying it makes him a disgusting traitor (the country's No. 1 traitor actually, apparently worse than the terrorists). There seem to be moves from the right making that argument "just not on" (as Orwell might say), and I think it's important for people who do feel like that (a majority IMO, on some level at least) know that many others do as well...

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the button
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Jul 8 2005 09:53

Maybe time to wheel out the trusty "No war but the class war."

Something "the left" haven't really picked up on is how describing something as "a war" operates. What I mean is how it removes it from the political/public sphere. As far as I'm concerned, what happened in London yesterday was criminal. But to frame it as an "act of war" legitimises all kinds of State responses, and also effectively forecloses any kind of objection.

That's probably a bit too much text for a flyposter though wink .

Quote:
Butcher Blair -- Happy now?

- crap slogan of the week.

redyred
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Jul 8 2005 09:57

I think something along the lines of "the government brought this upon us". It acknowledges the fact that have become the victims and doesn't sound insensitive or opportunistic. Definately avoid anything along "what they did in Iraq was worse" lines, cos it sounds like we're downplaying yesterday's bombings.

gentle revolutionary
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Jul 8 2005 11:09

There must be enough people & resources for a flyposter campaign at the very least! Which is far from being enough by the way - the reason for my post re. a demo - although I'm afraid the moment (for potential mass rage) has already largely been lost (assuming that it existed in the first place).

Still, we shouldn't completely underestimate people's intelligence, and this might yet prove to be a turning moment in the war when the general dizziness subsides.

Regarding slogans, "The Wars are Yours – the Deaths are Ours!", which was used in Spain, seems to encapsulate the sentiment/fact, while keeping away from being "too ideological". Could someone maybe contact Clifford Harper to help with design? When it comes to people actually flyposting, just hsg has got a few hundred people on their list...SolFed people are quite good at it also:)

I know we're very dispersed because of the G8, and it is a shock, but I can't understand all this apathy. Surely it's not just nationalists in this country who can get their acts together during moments like this.

SWP are having a (relatively) mass conference while libertarians are drowning in self-pity.

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the button
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Jul 8 2005 11:43
gentle revolutionary wrote:
I can't understand all this apathy.

All what apathy? confused

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oisleep
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Jul 8 2005 11:45

i'd be happy to help out re posters, printing, putting up etc.....

gentle revolutionary
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Jul 8 2005 12:30
the button wrote:
gentle revolutionary wrote:
I can't understand all this apathy.

All what apathy? confused

Oh come on, my grandma would be more revolutionary! Libertarian communists in Britain should get laurels for their inability to "put their money where their mouth is" anyway...With praiseworthy exceptions (eg. oisleep:)...

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the button
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Jul 8 2005 12:32

What do you expect us to do? Post details of what illegal flyposting/direct actions we've got planned on a public message board?

You're not OB by any chance are you?

LiveFastDiarrea
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Jul 8 2005 12:33
the button wrote:

You're not OB by any chance are you?

OB from holyoaks? That would be sweet.

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the button
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Jul 8 2005 12:36
LiveFastDiarrea wrote:
the button wrote:

You're not OB by any chance are you?

OB from holyoaks? That would be sweet.

grin

I can think of other members of the cast of Holyoakes I'd rather converse with.

( embarrassed )

LiveFastDiarrea
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Jul 8 2005 13:23

'Converse' hey? Is that what the kids are calling it these days.

BB
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Jul 8 2005 13:43
the button wrote:
gentle revolutionary wrote:
I can't understand all this apathy.

All what apathy? confused

Yours! Get off your ass! tongue

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the button
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Jul 8 2005 13:44

*typing standing up (yes I really am grin )*

Is that better?

BB
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Jul 8 2005 13:46
the button wrote:
*typing standing up (yes I really am grin )*

Is that better?

Now bend over...

gentle revolutionary
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Jul 8 2005 13:51

I didn't have anything illegal in mind. I did, however, start a thread about organising a protest this evening. No one cared to reply...

I've been up all night (since yesterday!) reading some stuff, and, already tired, I sent this proposal early in the morning hoping there would be a quick reaction and sth would happen. I decided not to go to sleep so that I'm prepared and can help coordinate & publicise the action. Blessed are the utopians...sad

I'm going to sleep now.

It's not all bad though - there's a vigil tomorrow - www.libcom.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=60801#60801

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You're not OB by any chance are you?

OB???

zzz

redyred
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Jul 8 2005 19:04
gentle revolutionary wrote:
I've been up all night (since yesterday!) reading some stuff, and, already tired, I sent this proposal early in the morning hoping there would be a quick reaction and sth would happen. I decided not to go to sleep so that I'm prepared and can help coordinate & publicise the action. Blessed are the utopians...sad

I'm going to sleep now.

Well I do apologise for not being a perfect full time activist. Naturally I would normally be a whirlwind of revolutionary activity but other things keep getting in my way. For example, I'd love to stay up all night "reading some stuff" but sadly in half an hour I have to go out and work a night shift. Strange as it may seem, they don't pay me if I don't come in. Of course, I don't always have such good excuses - for example earlier today I engaged in the highly counter-revolutionary activity of cooking a meal for my family. I also spent parts of the day asleep which, while not exactly furthering our cause, does drastically reduce my tendency to hallucinate, speak incoherently and fall over. But who knows, perhaps one day I can become a real martyr like you.

gentle revolutionary
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Jul 9 2005 04:13

I wasn't asking for martyrdom. What I was asking (and usually expect) from anarchos is that they concentrate on priorities and stop spending inordinate amounts of time on meaningless chit-chat, especially in times of crisis. You could call it political maturity.

The following days and weeks are extremely important, and our failure to respond could cost us dearly in terms of repression and a clearer shift to US-style politics.

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Jul 9 2005 12:33
gentle revolutionary wrote:
I wasn't asking for martyrdom. What I was asking (and usually expect) from anarchos is that they concentrate on priorities and stop spending inordinate amounts of time on meaningless chit-chat, especially in times of crisis. You could call it political maturity.

GR, don't know if it's intentional but you're coming off a bit of a dick. You have no idea what goes on in the lives of people using this forum.

Questionauthority
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Jul 9 2005 12:39

Well to be honest I thought what Ken livingston said was quite good. Also if stuff is posted maybe it wants to be tied in with the fact Clarke admitted that id cards would not have helped stop this attack....

gentle revolutionary
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Jul 9 2005 13:31
John. wrote:
gentle revolutionary wrote:
I wasn't asking for martyrdom. What I was asking (and usually expect) from anarchos is that they concentrate on priorities and stop spending inordinate amounts of time on meaningless chit-chat, especially in times of crisis. You could call it political maturity.

GR, don't know if it's intentional but you're coming off a bit of a dick. You have no idea what goes on in the lives of people using this forum.

It's just the everlasting clash between fanatics and diletantes. neutral

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Rob Ray
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Jul 9 2005 15:27

No it's not, it's you busting people's balls (haven't used that phrase in a while grin ) without knowing anything about them or their circumstances. Quit acting so damn superior.

gentle revolutionary
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Jul 10 2005 05:27

I didn't come here to fight. I'm sorry if I sounded patronizing, it's just frustration in the face of bombings and how we're all (our ideas) going to get fucked if we don't respond adequately.

Comradely,

Dan circle A red n black star red star

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Jul 10 2005 22:29

Libertarian response falters amidst bickering roll eyes

So far I've not seen anything planned apart from the anarchist statement (which is good, BTW).

STW and other groups are almost certain to be planning their responses.

As far as I can see, libertarians need to be part of the whole push towards seeing these terror attacks as part of the whole 'war on terror' that is designed to sideline social movements.

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Jul 11 2005 06:58
Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
Libertarian response falters amidst bickering roll eyes

...while the far right response has been more solid. Spent quite a bit of time yesterday pulling National Front stickers down in manchester...

rebel_lion
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Jul 11 2005 13:01

imo "no war but the class war" (while something i wholly support) would probably be a bit stupid and more likely to alienate ppl.

at the stirling campsite, we made banners after hearing the news on thursday that said stuff like "against war and terrorism", "against terrorism = against g8", and similar stuff (can't remember exact wording, so paraphrased), but i think something that squarely equates the bastards that bombed london with the bastards that continue to bomb iraq, afghanistan, etc makes sense...

(if anyone can distil the anarchist statement released on thursday into something short and succinct enough to fit on a flyposter, please try!)

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Jul 11 2005 13:51

Here's something i jotted down on the train from scotland

*******

Fresh from facing the batons of the police protesters are returning, to stand in solidarity with friends and relations in London who have suffered murderous terror attacks. Fresh from resisting a summit that was all about war and extending corporate power, we return, only to face shocking terror at home -- but we are not scared.

We're not scared -- but we are worried, justifiably so -- and this is because we're aware of the brutality that the British state is capable of, and we know that they will take this opportunity to extend their ability to control and brutalise us. We don't want to live in their world of terror. A world created both by the British politicians making war in Afghanistan and Iraq, and by those who use terror to strike at us, but who just want to become another set of politicians.

The world that these two groups create is designed to keep us scared, passive, and living in such fear that we forget that we, ordinary people, have the capacity to run our own lives without any of these politicians.

The state of constant terror and war is very useful to the British ruling class, because it takes attention away from the shoddy nature of the world around us -- a world they have created -- with failing public services, scarce and expensive housing, and a natural environment that is being concreted over.

However, if we think clearly and stay organised we have the capacity to resist the political drive towards terror and control and to move instead towards a world based on co-operation and freedom.

We cannot allow these terror attacks to stifle our movements. We will go on, and we will stay strong.

gentle revolutionary
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Jul 11 2005 19:27

Nice Lazlo. I'll recommend this for the AF website.

Would you be interested in putting up posters and stickers in Oxford (http://libcom.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5815)?

Btw., we met at the anti-war demo and when that Columbian kid was killed. Did you join the AF?

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Jul 12 2005 01:49

Some of us met tonight and talked about posters and stickers with the slogan 'the wars are yours, the deaths are ours' and hopefully theses will be going up al over the country very soon. Feel free to stick up my test wherever you like.

gentle revolutionary
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Jul 12 2005 13:34
Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
Some of us met tonight and talked about posters and stickers with the slogan 'the wars are yours, the deaths are ours' and hopefully theses will be going up al over the country very soon.

Great, but I don't completely understand. Is this your separate project or do you plan to do it on a national level (which was what I had in mind).

Are you just going to use the slogan 'the wars are yours, the deaths are ours' or the longer version (100 000 in Iraq..."Fight the rulers, not their wars"...)?

How will you deal with design issues? I think it should be very attractive - unfortunately, leftists usually neglect this aspect. I've already mentioned maybe Julian Gibson (www.juliangibson.com) or Clifford Harper (you can ask distro@freedompress.org.uk for his address) could help (any other ideas?).

If in any way possible, could you take on some of the coordinating stuff I've been doing in the past few days?? You could ask me for possible contacts, and I'll (inevitably) be participating, but there's a lot of stuff around the new London IWW group and a new East London community group which I have to concentrate on.

Don't mourn, organise grin

Dan