An Open Discussion on the ICC and Current Issues

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baboon
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Apr 20 2015 12:18

A valid link to the issues affecting revolutionary elements:http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/201504/12486/statement-solidari....

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Jamal
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Apr 21 2015 14:28
Link on ICC forums wrote:
I do not believe the ICC is monolithic or against discussion; this forum and the discussions that unfold are themselves evidence of that.

Couldn't be further from the truth. The forums are filled with eveything from supporters, to sympathizers, to critics. A role call or short browsing on the site clearly demonstrates the lack of ICC militants actually making a contribution there.

In my opinion, it should be relabeled "ICC Supporters Forums" or something similar.

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Jamal
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Apr 25 2015 03:28

The ICC has weighed in on some of these issues in an official capacity:

ICC wrote:
We think it is necessary for us to remind those comrades who are criticising the ICC for so-called “psychologizing” of those criticising the organisation (something these comrades offer no evidence of) that the ICC as a Marxist organisation does think that the question of behaviour and motivation is a fundamental aspect of the marxist understanding of the organisation question. Comrades appear to be surprised that we seek to understand behaviour within the dynamic of( the weight of bourgeois ideology on the working class and its revolutionary organisations. Comrades imply that this is some new manifestation of the problems in the ICC. Some of the those comrades criticising us for this are new to the ICC and may not have read all the texts of the ICC on the organisation question, but other comrades have known the ICC for a long time, so it is rather surprising that these comrades have not understood that the ICC defends the Marxist analysis of the constant danger of the penetration of alien ideologies and behaviours into the organisation and the class as a whole. We have hardly hidden this analysis. We would thus suggest that a better way of developing this discussion is for comrades to address themselves to the written positions of the organisation, and not rather vague ideas about how the ICC is psychologizing those who criticise it. Comrades may very well disagree with our analysis of the organisational question, but at least we could have a discussion of what the ICC says on these question and not on comrades’ vague assertions We do not ask comrades to blindly agree with us, but what is necessary is that we are very clear on what we disagree on.

The central texts on the organisation question are;
- Report on the function of the revolutionary organisation, IR 29 1983
-Report on the structure and functioning of the revolutionary organisation, IR 33 1983

- Orientation Text 2001: Confidence and solidarity in the proletarian struggle, Part 1
International Review no.111 - 4th quarter 2002
15-Oct-2002
- Orientation Text 2001: Confidence and solidarity in the proletarian struggle, Part 2
International Review no.112 - 1st quarter 2003
15-Jan-2003
- The question of organisational functioning in the ICC
International Review no.109 - 2nd quarter 2002
27-Nov-2004

That’s a lot of material to read, obviously. Probably the one which is most directly relevant to this discussion is the one in IR 109.

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Jamal
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Apr 26 2015 17:18

I am expecting the basic positions of PBJ to be out very soon, and I'm hoping Pale Blue Jadal will break through the framework it has been characterized under by the ICC, represented in the article from IR 109.

I think it's a mistake to think that PBJ are just another "tendency" which the ICC can use to simply add another few bulletin points to the aforementioned article.

In my opinion, this is the wrong position to take by the ICC. I would recommend from a theoretical perspective to stop this trajectory now, stop trying to to hurl PBJ into one dusty drawer labeled "petite-bourgeois" and "discontent-ist" before you've even seen their platform.

Otherwise, whatever comrades are left in the ICC at that time will have to continue writing more material on the question of organizational functioning within the ICC. This may not be a bad thing.

Devrim or Leo or whoever else are not Chenier, nor are the rest of the Turkish comrades, who I think will finally deliver to the ICC the substantive criticisms it asks for in the IR 109 article. Nor is the Turkish ex-section the Spanish section of 87-88 mentioned in the IR 109 article. There are also serious problems with the comparison of the ICC to the IWA and the RDSLP, true organs of the working class, which I think oddly-or-not tie right into the points about "delusions" the ICC accuses breakaway groups of forming in the article.

There's a lot more to say about this--inlcuding but not limited to the failing of other left communist orgs, like the ICT--but I hope to find a more progressive place to discuss with left communists, reflect and write at soon.

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Jamal
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Jan 20 2016 15:20

Harking back to the debate in the beginning of this thread over death rates and general declines in health, etc.

Quote:
A new analysis by The New York Times finds drug overdoses are driving the death rate of young white adults in the United States to levels not seen since the end of the AIDS epidemic more than two decades ago. The increase makes young, white adults between the ages of 25 and 34 the first generation since the mid-1960s, during the Vietnam War, to experience higher death rates in early adulthood than the generation that came before it. The death rate rose much faster for those without a high school diploma.'

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/17/science/drug-overdoses-propel-rise-in-...

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Jamal
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Jan 20 2016 15:21

PS - The ICC still sucks