Mandela in London Feb 3 : MakePovertyHistory

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StreetSeen
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Jan 29 2005 21:09
Mandela in London Feb 3 : MakePovertyHistory

MANDELA COMES TO LONDON TO MAKE POVERTY HISTORY

TRAFALGAR SQUARE, LONDON 12pm THURSDAY FEBRUARY 3RD

On Thursday 3rd February, Nelson Mandela will be coming to London endorsing MakePovertyHistory - the biggest anti-poverty campaign ever.

He will be addressing a crowd of thousands in Trafalgar Square in London to put pressure on world leaders to ensure more and better aid, drop the debt and deliver trade justice. He will be calling on the public to get involved and take action.

http://www.makepovertyhistory.org/mandela.html

Caiman del Barrio
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Jan 29 2005 21:52

Oh fuck off you liberal prick.

StreetSeen
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Jan 29 2005 22:26

who me or mandela?? Why whats your problem? roll eyes

Liberal:Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=liberal

sublimembject
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Jan 29 2005 22:42

That's a liberal definition of liberalism if I've ever heard one!

Caiman del Barrio
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Jan 29 2005 22:43

You know what I mean when I say liberal. And Mandela and Make Poverty History can both fuck off. What a bunch of liberal reformist shite.

sublimembject
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Jan 29 2005 22:45

Quite. The fact that MPH have called their 'anti-poverty' demo in Edinburgh before the G8 leaders are even in the country tells you everything you need to know about them. Politics without confrontation. Now there's a definition of liberalism.

Caiman del Barrio
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Jan 29 2005 22:47

Miserably marching from A to B, motivated solely by a fear of death, completely coopted and incorporated into the spectacle and charade of modern capitalism.

StreetSeen
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Jan 29 2005 22:49

That's a liberal definition of liberalism if I've ever heard one grin grin

StreetSeen
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Jan 29 2005 23:06

I appreciate your concerns with the MPH campaign and associated direction and supporters...But nevertheless MPH are putting the whole issue of Poverty, Debt and trade in the public eye... as such I support them.

Rather than shoot the messenger, would it not be better to engage in argument as to the way forward..

In Ireland I work with many groups, many I disagree with as to their ultimate aim. But if they are going to try to attempt something positive I will work with them though reserve the right to critisice... MPH are a group that I can operate closely with, im no fool ,I know to effect real social change it takes confrontation. Experience has taught me to build support, Ive been battered many times confronting the state. In future I wont be picked off so easily!!!

Caiman del Barrio
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Jan 29 2005 23:10
StreetSeen wrote:
im no fool ,I know to effect real social change it takes confrontation.

So why waste your precious days getting so heavily involved (to the point that you're advertising its actions over message boards) in something you yourself see has such a limited scope that it's pretty much worthless??

StreetSeen
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Jan 29 2005 23:26

It took me all of 10 seconds to post the information. Why? Cause I think it may have some relevance. I dont see The MPH campaign as worthless, I really hope they achieve their aim. But I really hope its just the start.. I dont know you or your involvement in socal change though I presume you are involved else you would have little to say in what I post.

But what made you the person you are now. I bet it was a very simple protest or campaign and then you realised over time that that wasnt the solution. I remember the radicalisition that occured in people that were at Trafalgar in the Poll Tax demos( we can argue bout the pricks that helped dilute this anger later), the anger after Genoa(ditto) etc etc..

I believe in getting people out on the streets, its up to you and me to keep them out there...as the bould Malcolm said 'By any means necessary' wink

sublimembject
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Jan 29 2005 23:30

I take the point that MPH raises issues - and I've met people who've arrived at (IMO) decent political positions through involvement with NGO campaigns organised around world poverty - but it's involved a steep learning curve!

If you pushed me, I'd say that MPH and the like are reformist organisations - like Old Labour or Trot groups they raise genuine issues, organise people around them, but then misdirect their energies towards activity which, however well-intentioned, reinforces both the State and capitalism - MPH appeals to Gordon Brown to drop debt in order to give third world countries a fair chance to 'compete', for example. I'd not waste my time with them if I were you.

StreetSeen
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Jan 29 2005 23:39

There was an argument a while ago that giving money to people begging on the streets reinforced their position on the Streets so as such you shouldnt give your spare change..

I dont understand the argument in not getting people out on the streets protesting, should we not bother? Should we accept the status quo? I cant...

sublimembject
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Jan 29 2005 23:52

Giving money to someone on the street might be an example of autonomous working class self-help, ordinary people doing something for each other, outside the process of capital circulation, without asking permission from the State. This is the exact opposite of what is happening on an NGO demonstration - going cap in hand to Gordon Brown, on behalf of 'third world' people, saying 'please sir, give us some concessions'. If you want to help people in indebted countries, try to form solidarity links with grass roots organisations. Alternatively, bizarre though it may seem, the best thing you can do to fight poverty worldwide is to fight capital in your own back-yard. That's my view, anyway.

Caiman del Barrio
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Jan 30 2005 00:12
StreetSeen wrote:
Should we accept the status quo? I cant...

Well you more or less are by your involvement in this campaign. Any organisation that begs capitalist leaders for reform are participating in the current system.

You claim MPH is a "start". A start for what exactly?? A fait accompli that Brown could wheel out as and when those on the left criticise his anti-working class policies?? A nice little piece of meat for the right wing press to rip through and point out the innaccuracies in, therefore painting anyone to the left of them as incompetent wishy washy hippies??

And that's not mentioning the fact that that organisation is only adding to the illusion of legitimisation that hangs over this current government by your protest methods.

If you really a revolutionary, I suggest you examine your involvement in this organisation very closely.

StreetSeen
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Jan 30 2005 00:14
sublimeobject wrote:
If you want to help people in indebted countries, try to form solidarity links with grass roots organisations. Alternatively, bizarre though it may seem, the best thing you can do to fight poverty worldwide is to fight capital in your own back-yard. That's my view, anyway.

Thats the right view.. I agree whole heartedly and encourage this process....Lets try to encourage others!

Maybe getting them out on a 'reformist' protest may be part of that, most 9 to 5ers I know arent aware of the international grassroot organisations you speak of...They are only aware of the issues that they face on a daily basis, its up to us to make the links. How do we do this though is the issue? maybe it is by events of Mandela's visit and ensuring that we have a presence there and distribute information of these groups... I posted the info so you and others would be aware of this opportunity and hopefully act on it!!! Posting as you do I presume you have links to these grassroot groups you speak of... if you havent, get in touch and I will forward some details....