London Summit

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cantdocartwheels's picture
cantdocartwheels
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Feb 13 2009 00:17
London Summit

http://www.londonsummit.gov.uk

Well demos are on the last weekend of march apparently. Is there a plan to put up a blog on here and get some leaflets done? Can write an article or two if tis needed.

Do people feel like doing anything else for it? Any suggestions for follow up meetings etc?

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Feb 13 2009 00:25

FULL LONSDALE

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Feb 13 2009 00:56
Quote:
Quote:
Is there a plan to put up a blog on here and get some leaflets done?

No..

What so handing out a leaflet saying ''this isn't all bad but its a bit spectacular protest yadda yadda, we could do x y and z'' to an audience of 20,000 odd is a bad idea because?

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Feb 13 2009 01:01

If your angle is convincing them that a lot of this shit is just empty stuntism, then planning meetings might be a better place. I doubt anyone on the day of stuff like thisis gonna think anything other than you're a bit of a dick for telling them they're doing activism wrong IN THE MIDDLE OF AN ACTIVISM.

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Feb 13 2009 01:20
Choccy wrote:
If your angle is convincing them that a lot of this shit is just empty stuntism, then planning meetings might be a better place. I doubt anyone on the day of stuff like thisis gonna think anything other than you're a bit of a dick for telling them they're doing activism wrong IN THE MIDDLE OF AN ACTIVISM.

It isn't ''wrong'' to go on the demo you muppet, the point is to be recomending other courses of action aswell as going on a summit protest, like you know direct action, libertarian communism joining an anarchist group all that jazz.

Anyways i'm going to leave this thread until someone else replies i reckon.

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Feb 13 2009 08:29

Well in your opening post it wasn't even remotely clear what you had in mind. I still think going to planning meetings and suggesting alternatives to summit protests is probably a better way of spending your energy than going to the demos themselves.

no1
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Feb 13 2009 09:19
Jack wrote:
cantdocartwheels wrote:
Well demos are on the last weekend of march apparently.

So?

and if the guys from the oil refinery wildcats go and it turns into the biggest riot since the poll tax riot?

fatbongo
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Feb 13 2009 16:11

Is it possible that some commenters are grouchy, old farts who gain a smug sense of satisfaction from dismissing 'spectacular' actions (yawn) and 'activism' in general?wink

Personally, my participation in some "empty stuntism" organised by liberals and 'activists' (J18) was a gateway into more radical politics.

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Feb 13 2009 17:25
fatbongo wrote:
Is it possible that some commenters are grouchy, old farts who gain a smug sense of satisfaction from dismissing 'spectacular' actions (yawn) and 'activism' in general?;)

Nah, Jack's a 26-year old fart who gains smug satisfaction from dismissing 'spectacular' actions wink

fatbongo wrote:
Personally, my participation in some "empty stuntism" organised by liberals and 'activists' (J18) was a gateway into more radical politics.

Yeah, but a lot of people also come to more radical politics after involvement with Leninist groups.. I wouldn't turn up to their meetings and hand out leaflets (and, tbh, you'd probably get more joy there then at a summit protest)..

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Feb 13 2009 22:58
Ed wrote:
fatbongo wrote:
Is it possible that some commenters are grouchy, old farts who gain a smug sense of satisfaction from dismissing 'spectacular' actions (yawn) and 'activism' in general?;)

Nah, Jack's a 26-year old fart who gains smug satisfaction from dismissing 'spectacular' actions wink

I'd like to direct readers to a 2005 article Ed wrote for Working Class Resistance.

fatbongo wrote:
Personally, my participation in some "empty stuntism" organised by liberals and 'activists' (J18) was a gateway into more radical politics.

Yeah, but a lot of people also come to more radical politics after involvement with Leninist groups.. I wouldn't turn up to their meetings and hand out leaflets (and, tbh, you'd probably get more joy there then at a summit protest)..

I've never got the whole 'but some people get in through shit politics...' vibe. Yeah, I got in through some total wank, but it was everyday living and working that got me into class struggle, not the shite enviro-vegan RTS type shit I was into before. I got into class-struggle despite the appalling stuff I was into before.

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Feb 14 2009 08:56
Ed wrote:
fatbongo wrote:
Is it possible that some commenters are grouchy, old farts who gain a smug sense of satisfaction from dismissing 'spectacular' actions (yawn) and 'activism' in general?;)

Nah, Jack's a 26-year old fart who gains smug satisfaction from dismissing 'spectacular' actions wink

fatbongo wrote:
Personally, my participation in some "empty stuntism" organised by liberals and 'activists' (J18) was a gateway into more radical politics.

Yeah, but a lot of people also come to more radical politics after involvement with Leninist groups.. I wouldn't turn up to their meetings and hand out leaflets (and, tbh, you'd probably get more joy there then at a summit protest)..

I think Jack is 27

Caiman del Barrio
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Feb 14 2009 16:49
Choccy wrote:
I've never got the whole 'but some people get in through shit politics...' vibe. Yeah, I got in through some total wank, but it was everyday living and working that got me into class struggle, not the shite enviro-vegan RTS type shit I was into before. I got into class-struggle despite the appalling stuff I was into before.

Oh good, how lucky it is then that everyday living and working is characterised by its contact with and easy access to class struggle anarchism.

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Feb 14 2009 17:50

Who said it was characterised by 'contact with and easy access to class struggle anarchism'?

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Feb 14 2009 18:25

It's the ultimate intermediary.

Caiman del Barrio
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Feb 14 2009 18:28
Choccy wrote:
I got into class-struggle despite the appalling stuff I was into before.

I sincerely doubt that, like it or not the two aren't opposites and there is a commonality between them. They share certain resources (of which G20 is just one) and more than a few protagonists and thus someone involved in one comes into contact with the other.

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Feb 14 2009 18:57

No, really, I had to actually unlearn a lot of shit I was into, it wasn't a gradual continuum. I'd literally have been better when I was clueless. Ideas I'd previously held were some pretty reactionary shite. The social centre here closing, and me dropping out of punk/hardcore and just working fulltime for 2yrs and not giving a fuck about activist shit had far more to do with me getting into class struggle. But nah, I'm sure you know me better than I do.

I think you're reading some knee-jerk shit into what I'm saying. I've always embraced and been honest about the shite I was into prior to where I am now. As Ed pointed out, some get into 'more radical politics' through Leninist shite but you don't go leafletting them in meetings, although people are probably more recpeptive in meetings than they are at summit protests.

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Feb 14 2009 19:32
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As Ed pointed out, some get into 'more radical politics' through Leninist shite but you don't go leafletting them in meetings, although people are probably more recpeptive in meetings than they are at summit protests.

Oh give this tired bollocks a rest, the london summit is a demo of 20,000 plus people from across the political spectrum who probably expect to be given a few leaflets in the day and want to ''do stuff''. In contrast, an average SWP meeting is ten people in a pub who all know each other well and share a pretty specific political perspective and who want to build the party. Also you goin off on one about how you got into class politics cause you were down trodden at work and how punk had nothing to do with seems a bit odd, afterall weren't you revols housemate before you joined organise?

Personally I used to be a proper wishy washy liberal, i got into anarchist politics because i did stuff around the iraq war, read a bunch of marxist crap at uni and i couldn't fucking stand the SWP. Probably some of the music i listened to helped aswell, and the people i knew.
Sure class struggle anarchism should be more accesable to people who aren't politicos beforehand, and anarchist organisations should have more of industrial focus in terms of action and recruitment, but i don;t see why we should therefore pretend that liberal lefties aren;t pretty succeptable to anarchist ideas and why we shouldnl;t leaflet a demo of 20,000 people who want to get involved. its not as if leafleting a demo somehow stops us from doing the other stuff ffs.

Anyways i'm gonna write a leaflet for it anyways, if anyone wants to help drop us a pm. Apart from that i recommend this thread gets put in the bin.

Caiman del Barrio
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Feb 14 2009 19:48
Choccy wrote:
As Ed pointed out, some get into 'more radical politics' through Leninist shite but you don't go leafletting them in meetings, although people are probably more recpeptive in meetings than they are at summit protests.

What a ridiculous concept: as if anarchists would be allowed to hand leaflets out at a Party meeting. Actually, where you do get a concentration of various confused and open-minded leftists plus the ability to talk to them will be at these kinda gatherings, horrific and soul-destroying as I imagine they are.

A second point is that is actually happening in London, which is a bit different to taking a holiday in Italy or Sweden or whatever. Some of the arguments on here against participating in shit happening on your doorstep is ridiculous. I don't think they're practical arguments made from experience, cos I don't know you'd all ignore similar occurrences happening in your towns.

But fuck it, you're all far too close to "normality" (normality being a handful of ex-punks with almost embarassing issues with their past) to do that right?

Caiman del Barrio
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Feb 14 2009 20:17

First off, why assimilate my arguments with those of Cantdo? That belies a rather simplistic understanding of the nature of debate no? Are you still filtering every world event, idea and philosophy through the prism of polarity, after 5 years of your dichotomies being undermined on here?

Jack wrote:
If you feel the crushing need to do a leaflet about how we need to organise around the crisis, the go hand it out outside New Cross station at rush hour. You'd get a far better return on your time doing this than at the G20 demo.

#1 that's an assumption. You might be right, but I'd trust someone who's tried both more than I would your prolier than thou posturing

#2 actually there is discussion about distributing Catalyst (and even Tea Break if it happens) outside train stations and I have put myself forward. I haven't put myself forward to spend an awful day around these alienated death march idiots at G20. It's more that the arguments you're making against doing so are tired and inaccurate.

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Feb 14 2009 20:18
Jack wrote:
I love you Alan and cantdo

groucho

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Feb 14 2009 20:33
Caiman del Barrio wrote:
Choccy wrote:
As Ed pointed out, some get into 'more radical politics' through Leninist shite but you don't go leafletting them in meetings, although people are probably more recpeptive in meetings than they are at summit protests.

What a ridiculous concept: as if anarchists would be allowed to hand leaflets out at a Party meeting. Actually, where you do get a concentration of various confused and open-minded leftists plus the ability to talk to them will be at these kinda gatherings, horrific and soul-destroying as I imagine they are.

stop being deliberately obtuse, or else thick, the point was you'd have more point was you'd have more chance persuading people at meetings generally or in person, than on the street at a mass protest, especially not one of this nature

Quote:
A second point is that is actually happening in London, which is a bit different to taking a holiday in Italy or Sweden or whatever. Some of the arguments on here against participating in shit happening on your doorstep is ridiculous. I don't think they're practical arguments made from experience, cos I don't know you'd all ignore similar occurrences happening in your towns

Who is arguing against it? I'm not even sure who you're arguing with here. We laughed at it and suggested it would be a waste of time. Obviously no one gives a fuck about trying to leaflet summits, do it if you want to.

And to be honest, if it was happening in Belfast I may indeed go along, out of some sense of obligation, but I'd probably not waste my time leafletting people. I might however go to some meetings and voice why I thought the whole stunty business was shite and suggest alternatives.

wrote:
But fuck it, you're all far too close to "normality" (normality being a handful of ex-punks with almost embarassing issues with their past) to do that right?

I'm not actually sure where you're getting any of this from. I've never been big into the kneejerk from my previous politics that does characterise many people on here. You obviously didn't bother reading my previous post. You really are mistaking me with someone else, my past was amazing and I fully embrace it!

At best I think this is a bit daft, that's all, and the automatic assumption that people would be doing anything for this (though Cantdo made zero allusions as to what this would entail in his OP) did strike me as bizarre.

I know you're in full 'doing shit' mode these days Alan, so I'll not slag anymore of your precious activisms wink

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Feb 23 2009 23:07

You lot really are a rum bunch.

Some people you don't really agree with go to all the trouble of assembling together thousands of people who are pissed off at the state of society and who have drawn varying degrees of anti-capitalist conclusions from that. Believe it or not the vast majority of them will not be hardened activistoids who live in squats and carry scabies. You will not find a more receptive audience for your ideas anywhere else that month.

And what do you do? Turn up your noses at the whole thing. You'd rather sit at home and fantasise about workers resistance networks springing fully formed from your arseholes.

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Feb 24 2009 01:13

I don't think it's entirely true that it was derided for no reason.
I suggested a better strategy might be to go to the actual planning meetings and discuss other forms of struggle that people might be interested in instead of symbolic protests and symbolic meetings.
Y'know, actually talk to people who are legitimately pissed off at the state of everything, instead of turning up to the protest where they're in the middle of 'doing an activism'. I just think you'd have a better chance of actually spreading ideas in meetings than when people are all psyched up and really think they're acheiving something at a summit protest.

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Feb 24 2009 01:26

There's no harm in turning up to planning meetings too, but your audience is inherently more limited there.

1) There are a lot less people present.
2) A much higher percentage of them are hardened politicos of whatever sort.

Summit protests and the like go on for a long time. You get a whole bunch of people showing up to them who by and large weren't at planning meetings and aren't entirely sure what's going on. You'd be surprised how many will be willing to listen to you if you go and actually talk to them.

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Feb 24 2009 01:31

I've never had anyone convince me that anything I was doing was wrong in the middle of doing it, ever. I'm not sure it's quite as common as you make out.
It's usually been in conversations in the pub, after meetings or just hanging out.

Like I said, I don't particularly care if anyone wants to put energy into this, but I'm no going to pretend i don't think there's much easier, smaller, specific things that would have more effect.

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Feb 24 2009 01:43
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it's a small handful of lefties doing a stupid protest at the G20 summit.

I sometimes get the impression that most anarchists are up their own arses because of posts like this. I heard about this event on housepricecrash of all places. There are at least half a dozen people on that site who are looking forward to attending a potential riot. They are just 'average joes' like me who want to vent their fury. They want a piece of the action but I suppose you'd rather stay at home reading some obscure anarchist literature then attend what could end up a large violent political protest against the establishment.

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Feb 24 2009 01:41
IrrationallyAngry wrote:
You lot really are a rum bunch.

Some people you don't really agree with go to all the trouble of assembling together thousands of people who are pissed off at the state of society and who have drawn varying degrees of anti-capitalist conclusions from that. Believe it or not the vast majority of them will not be hardened activistoids who live in squats and carry scabies. You will not find a more receptive audience for your ideas anywhere else that month.

And what do you do? Turn up your noses at the whole thing. You'd rather sit at home and fantasise about workers resistance networks springing fully formed from your arseholes.

Well fookin said.

IrrationallyAngry
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Feb 24 2009 01:44

Choccy:

The issue isn't about whether you can convince someone that going on the protest is "wrong". It isn't wrong. It's about whether you can convince them of class struggle politics and convince them to get involved in groups or activism of a kind that you think is more useful.

And that's definitely possible. I've even recruited people (who are still active now) to the Socialist Party at Anarchist May Day events. One of the distinguishing features of that kind of event is that they attract a whole bunch of people who are pissed off about the state of society and are looking for something useful to do. If you want to leave such people to the tender mercies of the much despised activistoids, that is of course your look out.

But you really should remember that the vast bulk of the people who show up to big events like that are not experienced and hardened dog-on-a-string people. Many of the people at the organising meetings will be, but the actual crowd is different.

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Feb 24 2009 02:03
IrrationallyAngry wrote:
Choccy:

The issue isn't about whether you can convince someone that going on the protest is "wrong". It isn't wrong. It's about whether you can convince them of class struggle politics and convince them to get involved in groups or activism of a kind that you think is more useful.

please my earlier posts in the thread then. i said nothing of the sort that they were 'wrong'
In fact I said the opposite, that if it was happening in elfast I'd go but probably not feel obligated to give out leaflets, rather i might turn up to some meetings and say my piece.
I also said turning up saying they are doing actvism wrong would make you look like a dick.

Quote:
And that's definitely possible. I've even recruited people (who are still active now) to the Socialist Party at Anarchist May Day events. One of the distinguishing features of that kind of event is that they attract a whole bunch of people who are pissed off about the state of society and are looking for something useful to do. If you want to leave such people to the tender mercies of the much despised activistoids, that is of course your look out.

Again i never suggested this at all, i suggested a better place for communicating ideas is meetings, chats, in the pub, not in the middle of protests. I'm not sure how receptive people are to criticism or alternative suggestions when they're in the middle of something like this and getting bombarded by leaflets from a myriad of other groups.

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Feb 24 2009 10:20
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I also said turning up saying they are doing actvism wrong would make you look like a dick.

Yes we know already, you said pretty much the exact same thing like ten fucking times on this thread despite the fact that people have repeatedly pointed out to you that there is nothing wrong with turning up on a demo. Yet you insist on bringing up this pointless dichotomy over and over.
I've handed out stuff on iraq demos recommending other courses of action, none of them said that anti-war demos were ''wrong'', why would anyone even make a retarded arguement like that. Its not exactly difficult to point out the limits of something without implying that its ''wrong''.

no1
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Feb 24 2009 10:39

I think previous summit protests became meaningless rituals, activisty Seattle re-enactment societies. But the situation is very different now, and I think the G20 summit could become the event where a new movement finds its first expression, and could potentially transform the political climate towards militancy. Of course A to B marches cannot achieve anything in themselves, but for non-politicos that decide to go to a march, it is a huge step: they are actively breaking with representative politics.