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Israel attacks Gaza

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freebird
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Dec 29 2008 14:31
Israel attacks Gaza

Yet again we see Israel bombing innocent women and children in Gaza while Britain and America look on.Both countries rave on about terrorism and yet they support terrorism inflicted by the Israelis.The Israeli government continue this barbaric killing in the knowledge that the western governments will turn a blind eye.Thats why they are so arrogant.It is time the world stood against Israel.Here we have a country that has broken more UN resolutions than probably any other country and always nothing is done.
Lets stand up against Israel and its bully boy tactics and tell the western governments that they should stop supporting Israel.If they do not,then they are just as guilty as Israel.
Long live Palestine!!

admin - move to appropriate forum and given more meaningful thread title

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jef costello
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Dec 29 2008 14:44

It is barbaric, but so is Iraq, Afghanistan, Georgia, South Ossetia, Ethiopia, Sudan, Colombia etc.
Governments have bombs so that they can drop them on people and the bully boy tactics of a government are limited by capability and not much else. So Georgia tries to bully South Ossetia (which is largely run by local gangsters) and is bullied in turn by Russia.

What world do you call to 'stand against Israel'?

What Palestine do you hope for?

Would the UN be in charge of a communist society?

Caiman del Barrio
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Dec 29 2008 15:14

300 odd dead. Fuck, Israel really are going all out now...they're trying to provoke more rocket and terrorist attacks in order to give a pretext for a ground invasion I reckon.

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jef costello
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Dec 29 2008 15:21

They've got a lot less to gain than from the invasion of Lebanon. The paper reckoned that they're trying to bolster their credentials ahead of february elections.

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Anarchia
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Dec 29 2008 15:53

jef - for sure. Likud are currently all set to heavily win the upcoming elections. This bombing campaign is certainly at least partially an effort by Kadimah and Avodah (Labour) to bolster their credentials with hawks to attempt to increase their chances.

radicalgraffiti
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Dec 29 2008 16:07

maybe they are trying to remove hamas from power?

freemind
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Dec 29 2008 18:22

So much for Israels "Purity of Arms"-Zionist Butchery and duplicity strike again with vicious consequences for some of the poorest people on the planet and for Israeli civilians. I'm pessimistic for the Palestinian people who are in a historical vex,caught between the hammer of American Imperialist Geo-Politics and the anvil of Zionist Fundamentalism.This is phased genocide which has steadily gathered apace since 1948 and with a brutality and indifference that will relegate a beleagured people to Red Indian status i fear.Another success for Capitalism/Fascism/Militarism against a poor but tenacious people-I hope i'm wrong!

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Tojiah
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Dec 29 2008 19:07

Rwanda massacre pwns it, freemind, sorry.

I'm mostly aghast at how blood-thirsty my fellow Israelis are. Honestly, the bravado you hear, not only on facebook, but in person. Makes me ashamed to be human, really. Just beat the war drums and those corrupt, incompetent assholes upstairs become the bee's knees, any dissenter a traitor worth killing.

Also, they're not really waiting for a pretext for ground insertion, the tanks are already set up and eager to Fight Fight Fight!

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Steven.
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Dec 29 2008 19:20

I see strikes have been called by Israeli Arabs:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1230456503064

And in Palestine:
http://www.imemc.org/article/58182

Does anyone know if these are ongoing? Or have any more information about them, because it looks like some of it is just bosses shutting their shops, etc

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Tojiah
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Dec 29 2008 19:27

They're mostly boss lock-outs. Also, they only occur inside of Arab communities, in businesses that cater mostly to Arabs, making the whole thing utterly pointless.

freemind
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Dec 29 2008 19:27

Treeofjudas; Confused on the Rwanda point! If you are talking of scale ok or are you talking of Geopolitical aspects?

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Tojiah
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Dec 29 2008 19:31

Both, I'd say.

Angelus Novus
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Dec 29 2008 19:49
freebird wrote:
Yet again we see Israel bombing innocent women and children

freemind
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Dec 29 2008 19:54

Treeofjudas;I dont know the exact Palestinian death toll and wont get into the fetish of respective deathcounts as measuring respective suffering is both difficult/impossible and immoral but Geopolitically i disagree in that although Africa is crucial successive US appraisals regard the Middle East as arguably more crucial ie Oil and other reasons.Also the blatant Rejectionism and transparant and duplicitous backing of Zionist brutality by the US over such a long period with such devastating effects makes Palestine/Israel stand out.Rwanda is one of many although the worst along with Congo conflagrations that have been largely ignored for racist and other reasons.However i did say "phased genocide " as opposed to the brutal sudden onslaught that Rwanda suffered.

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jef costello
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Dec 29 2008 20:07

Can you stop saying genocide? Murder and killing is not the same as genocide. Incidentally Rwanda was about power as well as ethnicity, hutus were killed by the interahamwe as well as tutsis.
The backing of Israel is self-serving (or at least intended to be) just like backing for any number of governments in Africa. Incidentally you could look to the Suez crisis of 1956, the USA went against Israel because it felt that it was not in its best interests to back it. There are a range of conflicting reasons for nations to support other nations and factions and groupings but ultimately it's all done as brutally as is necessary.
No gods or masters, home grown or not.

freemind
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Dec 29 2008 20:35

Jef Costello;Im not saying genocide in the context of the past 24 hours bu backingt re;the last century and Zionisms supremacist and racist modus operandi.This is not random but deliberate and targetting of civilians,expelling a population from its territory,assassination of leaders,denial of food and essential medical supplies,racist laws,brutal repression.and other factors qualify this as a form of genocide for me.I understand that the US is being cynical and opportunist and it seriously considered backing Egypt instead of Israel when initially planning policy but essentially it has gave Israel 100% backing.No Gods-No Masters!

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Bisc
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Dec 29 2008 20:59

Genocide is a really flimsy word. I wouldn't go so far as to say that israel is committing genocide. Racist apartheid, yes. Ethnic cleansing, yes; in a very brutal way. It could be compared to the rapid gentrification that's taking place here in america, as gentrification is, or at least could be, a form of ethnic cleansing through economic means, for the purpose of capital growth. "Getting rid of undesirables", to put it bluntly. I'm not trying to "cheapen" the violence that is committed against palestinians, but screaming genocide at every sign of mass violence can lead to nationalist hatred. Anarchists and anti-authoritarian communists shouldn't take sides in this conflict. We shouldn't remain neutral either, we should encourage anti-authoritarian resistance among both palestinians and israelis against their individual states. Israelis against their state and hamas. Palestinians against hamas and the israeli state. If you want an example of how labeling any instance of mass violence (I lack a better term to use, so forgive me if this inadequate or incorrect) a genocide, can lead to, or be used for, the instilling of nationalism just take a look at Jew watch.org. That's actually the first site that came up when I googled palestinian genocide.

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Bisc
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Dec 29 2008 21:17

To reiterate on my - "getting rid of undesirables" - statement. I meant that israel is targeting and committing brutal violence against the palestinians for the purpose of economic expansion and the growth of capital. Much like urban gentrification is used to increase the wealth of a local state and all of its institutions. The nazis murdered jews, communists, africans etc just to eliminate them, out of sheer spite and their belief that they were truly "racially" superior. The nazis methodically planned out how, when and why they were murdering those people, they carried out the act with relentless determination. I have no doubt that racism is aimed against the palestinians, hence the racist apartheid, but the israelis aren't systematically murdering palestinians. There's no such thing as "slow motion genocide". You could easily say that the genocide committed against the indigenous peoples of the Americas was "phased genocide", but that genocide only took so long because of the quantity of its victims. What is it, 120 million? Genocide is the act of systematically eliminating a group of peoples, much like an assembly line is the systematic production of commodities. You don't carry out genocide in "slow motion". Genocide is a premeditated act of mass murder with the intent of total annihilation. The nazis didn't have "phased genocide", they committed the act with an unstoppable intent, they never ceased or "slowed down" their murders, they committed it day and night, around the clock, nonstop for 7 or 6 years. Same thing with East Timor genocides, and the Khmer Rouge.

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jef costello
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Dec 29 2008 21:23

Nazis began by stripping the jews of money to fund expansion. There was a lot of discussion about the 'jewish question' hence the Wannsee conference. The first to be killed off were 'mental defectives'.

freemind
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Dec 29 2008 21:23

Bisc;I'm not "screaming genocide" at one act of violence but over a protracted period.Also i'm not taking sides in a nationalist context but in Anarchist terms ie;For the working class of both nations and everywhere.The fact is the Palestinians are taking the brunt and the odds are overwhelmingly in Israel's favour in every way so that's why i've stated what i have.Zionism is Fascistic and Imperialist and we know what happens when Fascism subjects a people to it's whims.The Red Indians were subjected to acts of violence which taken together with a bigoted/racist ideology over a period of time amounts to genocide!

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Joseph Kay
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Dec 29 2008 21:26

while i agree that the use of the term 'genocide' in relation to israel's treatment of the palestinian population is hyperbolic by colloquial standards - and often goes hand in hand with dodgy talk of 'zionazis' and the like - the israeli state's actions arguably fall within Article 2 of the Convention on Genocide (1948):

Convention on Genocide (1948) wrote:
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

(emphasis added).

whether this definition is too broad is also arguable, but it's the current legal meaning.

freemind
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Dec 29 2008 21:43

Bisc;I maybe wrong but i think 12 million Indians died in America.Also i never said "Genocide in slow motion" but the time it takes is ephemeral Genocide is genocide and profit is only one motive amongst many. Zionizm and the Israeli ruling class wish to extinguish any remnant of Palestinian existence and even deny the existence as a race-another characteristic of genocide.

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Bisc
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Dec 29 2008 21:55

I'm not trying to out wit you, I'm simply trying to prevent and challenge nationalist tendencies among anti-authoritarians. I would have to say that, based on the current "official" meaning, the actions carried out against the Palestinians could qualify as genocide. I agree with you on the idea of Palestinians and Israelis resisting the authorities that whimsically move them around like chess pieces. I also apologize if I presented any inaccurate historical information, I'm dusty on my history, it's something I need to work on.

davidbroder
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Dec 30 2008 00:06

London demo earlier today: around 1500 people present, 7 arrests.

Photos and some more description (although not much detail on how freezing it was)
http://thecommune.wordpress.com/2008/12/30/photo-report-of-gaza-demonstration/

Black Badger
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Dec 30 2008 01:16

The temptation to take sides in lopsided conflicts (on the side of the underdogs naturally) is part of being a human being with a sense of justice. Radicals are especially good at sussing out who the righteous victims are, and promoting increased awareness of their plight(s), and actions taken in solidarity and support. The lopsided struggle of Palestinians to gain some means of independent survival against the constant oppression meted out by Israelis is one such fight.

Yesterday I attended a protest in San Francisco (self-congratulatory coverage available on various indymedia sites) to register my outrage at the latest wave of atrocities carried out by the State of Israel. That the protest was dominated by Palestinian nationalists is not surprising. That it was dominated by Palestinian flags turned my stomach. Nationalism is a poison. Even a cursory glance at the history of successful nationalist struggles for independence shows that the new ethnically based regime ends up just as barbaric as any other state. That's anti-state internationalism 101. Nationalism is a distraction (at best), leading people to avoid the greatest enemies of working class and poor people: capitalism and the state.

I had hoped that there would be some pro-zionists to counter-demonstrate so I could engage them in a debate (which would have quickly descended into the usual shouting match) rather than passively adding one more body to a manifestation of crude nationalist posturing.

The best (worst) chant of the day was "From the River to the Sea/Palestine Will Be Free!" Implicit in that is "free of Jews" (although they'd say "zionists" if challenged). I could take no more, so I left.

How are we to show solidarity with righteous victims while avoiding the promotion of rhetorical hyperbole and chauvinism inherent in the attempted inversion of that victimhood? Challenging nationalists with internationalism has never worked for me; the "special status" of oppressed people trumps any challenge coming from outside that category, and they are sure to play the ethno-race card at the first sign of trouble. Who the hell are we to decide for them how they are supposed to struggle for their liberation? By telling them that their chosen path to liberation is not real liberation?

Finding grassroots resistance to the mess in Israel/Palestine is difficult, but not impossible. Anarchists Against the Wall, the Alternative Information Center, Ta'ayush and others are doing what I would consider positive actions. Our solidarity needs to be extended to those projects.

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cantdocartwheels
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Dec 30 2008 02:01

Calling it genocide is completly innaccurate, afterall if the troops go into gaza in the next few weeks, they are going in as an occupation force, hundreds if not thousands will no doubt die in the fighting but the aim of the military operation will be occupation, control and perhaps militarily reducing hamas. It won;t be the liquidation of every refugee camp and the extermination of the palestinian population.

ps could an admin please delete angelus novus's post

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jef costello
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Dec 30 2008 02:03
cantdocartwheels wrote:
ps could an admin please delete angelus novus's post

there are quite a few smile it'd probably help to narrow it down

Zazaban
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Dec 30 2008 02:10
jef costello wrote:
cantdocartwheels wrote:
ps could an admin please delete angelus novus's post

there are quite a few smile it'd probably help to narrow it down

I looked though the thread and couldn't find any, what are you talking about?

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jef costello
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Dec 30 2008 02:16
Zazaban wrote:
jef costello wrote:
cantdocartwheels wrote:
ps could an admin please delete angelus novus's post

there are quite a few smile it'd probably help to narrow it down

I looked though the thread and couldn't find any, what are you talking about?

There's another thread on Israel, I think cantdo got them confused.

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jef costello
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Dec 30 2008 02:18

Planned demos, I heard that there were 7 arrests today, apparently cops are heavy handed on this.

Quote:
*LONDON*

Tuesday 30 December, 2 - 4pm outside Israeli Embassy, Kensington High
Street, London, W4. Nearest tube Kensingston High Street (turn right
out of tube station and walk along the main road.

Wednesday 31 December, 2 - 4pm outside Israeli Embassy

Thursday 1 January 2 - 4pm outside Israeli Embassy

Friday 2 January 2 - 4 pm. Outside the Egyptian Embassy, . 26 South
Street, London, W1K 1DW. Call for Egypt to open the border immediately.

SATURDAY 3 JANUARY. DEMONSTRATION AND RALLY. Assemble 2pm Parliament
Square, W1. Nearest tube Westminster

If anyone can knock something decent together I'd go to one of these.

Angelus Novus
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Dec 30 2008 03:36
freemind wrote:
assassination of leaders

Assassination of leaders? Egads! If there's anything that outrages us Libertarian Communists, it's when poor national leaders are assassinated!