Defend medical progress

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Grace
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May 8 2006 15:19
Defend medical progress

The second Pro-Test demo is to take place in Oxford on Saturday 3rd of June. Exact details of the march haven't yet been released but I'll post them when they are.

Basically we're demonstrating against the threats made by animal rights groups against both the workers involved in building and running the new research labs, and the entire University - all academic and non-academic staff and all students, the vast majority of whom will never have anything to do with the labs, and the workers of all companies and contractors associated with the University - and in support of the medical research that will take place in the new facility. Whilst animal research is far from perfect it remains one of the most valuable methods available to us at the moment and should not be held back by dangerous, graverobbing lunatics who'd prefer children to die of cancer than rats to die to further medical progress, and support violence towards people who are just doing their jobs, yet still claim to defend life.

In addition there is going to be a meeting at Oxford Town Hall on the 22nd for those who want to find out about animal research and what Pro-Test is all about. Anyone who wants to attend PM me and I'll give you the email address to RSVP to.

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Jacques Roux
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May 8 2006 15:30

Hmm i saw the pro-test guy on richard and judy ages ago. He seemed like a bit of a knob.

I wouldnt say I actively support medical testing within our society because it is for profit, not for human life, but i havent anymore against it than other capitalist enterprises.

This kinda stuff is dire though:

Pro-test wrote:
We stand for science, reasoned debate and, above all, the welfare of mankind.

*wonders how long this thread will last*

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JDMF
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May 8 2006 15:38

Aren't the people from living marxism running pro-test these days?

funny fanatic language in your post grace - if i would post anything like that about animal use, you would be all "look, a fanatic! A FANATIC!!!111!!111 ***foam in mouth***!!!1111!"

but i guess it doesn't go both ways...

Grace
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May 8 2006 15:40

He probably is a bit of a knob to be honest; he's a teenage boy. However, he's now handed over the organisation to a committee of students and staff within the University.

I'd personally draw a distinction between research and testing; as far as I'm aware the University doesn't carry out commercial testing and the labs will be used for research.

The fanatic language is semi-tongue in cheek, prefiguring the discussion that's likely to arise from my posting such a thread. Only semi, mind; I do still think they're lunatics.

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Jacques Roux
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May 8 2006 15:43
Quote:
I'd personally draw a distinction between research and testing; as far as I'm aware the University doesn't carry out commercial testing and the labs will be used for research.

Whats 'research' in this sense?

I mean university's are nothing but corporate playgrounds anyway...

I'd go on an anti-AR nutter demo tho. I've been on a couple of AR demo's in London (back in the day) and i have to say the people there were far from savoury.

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May 8 2006 15:45

who are lunatics? Everyone who is against using animal model in research like me?

And what kind of naive attitude is this commercial testing vs research comment grace? You dont think there are no commercial interests involved in the research carried out at the facility? You dont think there are tests with commercially sensitive outcomes and thus declared secret? Hey you weren't born yesterday!

and this is not an anti-AR nutter demo - it is a demo for using animal models in research and against building pressure for a paradigm change in that field. This demo is as much anti-AR nutter as the pro-hunting demos were about "saving the countryside from post office closures".

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Jacques Roux
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May 8 2006 15:47
JDMF wrote:
and this is not an anti-AR nutter demo

I didnt say it was...

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JDMF
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May 8 2006 15:49
rkn wrote:
JDMF wrote:
and this is not an anti-AR nutter demo

I didnt say it was...

yeah but grace seems to believe so...

AGAINST GRAVEDIGGING!!!! USE MORE MONKEYS IN LABS!!11!1!!

magnifico
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May 8 2006 15:54

I used to know this university student who got funding for a masters or something and he told me that his research involved scalping a rat every two days and brain damaging it to see what would happen. He said he wasn't actually trying to find out anything in particular, just curious. It wasn't Oxford, but I don't see why there would be much difference.

Seems a bit strange to throw your wholehearted support behind that sort of thing though I'm sure not everything that goes on there is that frivolous.

I agree with trying to distance anarchism from the crap politics that surrounds the AR movement but I don't think trying to present an image of hating animals is necessarily very attractive either, which i think happens a fair bit on libcom. I mean, I wouldn't defend these campaigns against students and workers' etc. for a minute but this Pro-Test group looks a bit fanatical as well to me....... though I have to admit I don't know a whole lot about it.

Grace
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May 8 2006 16:02

The new labs will continue whatever research the University is doing, which currently includes new treatments for Alzheimer's, Parkinson's disease, heart disease and cancer, and the University is at the forefront of the current research into vaccines for HIV. Obviously I know there are commercial interest but my point was that they are developing new treatments rather than being paid to test existing drugs.

The University's current research also includes developing non-animal techniques like computer modelling and tissue and cell cultures, and this would also be continued in the new labs.

For most people within the uni it's just as much an anti-AR nutter demo as a pro-research demo, if not more so; nobody here likes their intimidation against workers, staff and students.

Also, it's not a primate lab so monkeys aren't really that relevant.

magnifico
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May 8 2006 16:31
revol68 wrote:

I mean aren't benefit shop workers as much part of an exploitative system as those who carry out research on animals? Workers in weapon factories?

Sure but if workers in weapons factories were being victimised it would be a bit strange to set up a group called 'Pro-Arms Trade' to counter it. Not saying that this is exactly the same thing as what's going on here but it's clearly more than just a solidarity with workers' & students demo.

revolutionrugger
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May 8 2006 16:44

the false paradigm of animal testing holds back research; it doesn't aid it. I love the "finding cure for cancer" bullshit. Here's a clue, don't smoke, get the chemicals out of our food, eat right, and stop polluting the air. THATs the cure for cancer. Not some new drug. Fuck your instrumental rationality. Fuck you're reification of living SUFFERING beings, and fuck your counter-revolutionary protest.

Human freedom, animal rights, one struggle, one fight.

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Jacques Roux
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May 8 2006 16:47
revolutionrugger wrote:
Here's a clue, don't smoke, get the chemicals out of our food, eat right, and stop polluting the air.

Gotta agree with that.

But keep it friendly everybody, we all know where AR threads go.

Grace
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May 8 2006 17:01
revolutionrugger wrote:
I love the "finding cure for cancer" bullshit. Here's a clue, don't smoke, get the chemicals out of our food, eat right, and stop polluting the air. THATs the cure for cancer.

I agree with that point; prevention is definitely better than cure and a lot of cases of cancer probably could have been prevented, but what about people who do eat right, don't smoke, take care of themselves and still get cancer? What would you do if you got cancer (or any other illness whose treatments have been developed using animal research)? Refuse treatment?

revolutionrugger
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May 8 2006 17:06

my godmother has cancer right now. she just got her mysectomy. NO ANIMAL TESTING.

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Jacques Roux
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May 8 2006 17:09

Revol - just make your point and stop winding people up with crap tagged on the end.

revolutionrugger
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May 8 2006 17:09

ironic, you won't believe me, side note: She's was a vivesector back in the day, but found it to be unethical and became a biology teacher instead.

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Jacques Roux
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May 8 2006 17:13

revol - i dont care what he's saying - just make your point without flaming in a non-flaming forum. As you do, but without the crap on the end. Last warning, do it again and i'll just change your permissions.

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Steven.
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May 8 2006 17:28

I'm sure some of the people involved in pro-test are nobs. Loads of people are nobs. I support animal testing, but wouldn't go on a demo in support of it under capitalism, although taking part in a demo opposing threats to workers + students at the uni - as these fucks have - is totally fair enough.

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May 8 2006 17:30
John. wrote:
I'm sure some of the people involved in pro-test are nobs. Loads of people are nobs. I support animal testing, but wouldn't go on a demo in support of it under capitalism, although taking part in a demo opposing threats to workers + students at the uni - as these fucks have - is totally fair enough.

Exactly!

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Steven.
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May 8 2006 18:03

Sorry revolutionrugger I like you, but that's not very helpful contribution.

revolutionrugger wrote:
the false paradigm of animal testing holds back research; it doesn't aid it.

Sorry, this is just wrong. Animal testing is completely necessary unless you want to test on humans first. Computer modelling is not an adequate substitute yet.

Quote:
I love the "finding cure for cancer" bullshit. Here's a clue, don't smoke, get the chemicals out of our food, eat right, and stop polluting the air. THATs the cure for cancer. Not some new drug.

That's also not a very good argument. Who should stop polluting the air? Or are you saying that no effort should be made to cure disease until we live in communism? What about the 40million people with HIV or AIDS?

Quote:
Fuck your instrumental rationality.

confused

You're arguing against rationality? In that case I don't see us getting anywhere.

Quote:
Fuck you're reification of living SUFFERING beings

What does this mean?

Quote:
and fuck your counter-revolutionary protest.

It's counter-revolutionary?

In that case, things it's against must be revolutionary then. So please explain the revolutionary nature of the following:

1. Opposing animal testing

2. Threatening students who happen to go to the university

3. Threatening workers who happen to work there

Quote:
Human freedom, animal rights, one struggle, one fight.

Well, that's obviously just not accurate. They're both entirely different. We could live in a capitalist vegan society with medicines not tested on animals. So are you actually trying to make a point or just spewing rhetoric?

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Lazy Riser
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May 8 2006 18:03

Hi

Before we discuss animal rights, new comrades should bring themselves up to speed. In fact, it is somewhat dishonest of JDMF to restart this circle without reference. Maybe it was done for the sake of entertainment, which is a good enough reason to see something suffer as far as I’m concerned…

http://www.libcom.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=94208#94208

Love

LR

magnifico
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May 8 2006 18:21

I would have thought if a libertarian communist wanted to support these workers' and students then they would set up a group to support workers and students, not go on demos in support of an entire capitalist industry.

Some of the people who like to say 'it's class' all the time (correctly, I might add) seem to have forgotten this in their attempt to appear 'less lifestylist than thou' IMO. Are the ALF really one of the major threats to the British working class? I suggest that if a similar protest was organised on another issue you'd all be denouncing it as liberal wank.

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Lazy Riser
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May 8 2006 18:26

Hi

magnifico wrote:
Some of the people who like to say 'it's class' all the time (correctly, I might add) seem to have forgotten this in their attempt to appear 'less lifestylist than thou' IMO. Are the ALF really one of the major threats to the British working class? I suggest that if a similar protest was organised on another issue you'd all be denouncing it as liberal wank.

Are libertarian communist’s not allowed to have hobbies now? Harsh but fair I suppose.

Love

LR

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May 8 2006 18:43

If there's a sound scientific basis behind a trial which utilises animal testing (and for clarity; I include the value of the information being extracted in the scientific basis) I think it can be justified. I am against needless cruelty to animals, as I think most scientists would be which is why there are ethical guidelines for treatment of non-human subjects in research. And I do agree it is unfortunate that there is little viable alternative in many cases.

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Jacques Roux
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May 8 2006 19:13
magnifico wrote:

Some of the people who like to say 'it's class' all the time (correctly, I might add) seem to have forgotten this in their attempt to appear 'less lifestylist than thou' IMO. Are the ALF really one of the major threats to the British working class?

I dont think anyone has said they are though?

Quote:
I suggest that if a similar protest was organised on another issue you'd all be denouncing it as liberal wank.

What kind of thing are you talking about?

Grace has just posted up the thing about the demo and said she's going on it. No one else has said they are going on it or that they support it... People have said they would support a similair thing tho...

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May 8 2006 20:20
Refused wrote:
If there's a sound scientific basis behind a trial which utilises animal testing (and for clarity; I include the value of the information being extracted in the scientific basis) I think it can be justified. I am against needless cruelty to animals, as I think most scientists would be which is why there are ethical guidelines for treatment of non-human subjects in research. And I do agree it is unfortunate that there is little viable alternative in many cases.

exactly, but how do we achieve a situation where that paradign change is made possible?

In simplistic terms: animal model is used because it is cheap in comparison to the vast amount of research that is required to create alternatives to animal model. Of course loads of them have been developed already and have been in used for decades, but this "zero research" (research which is done into a research method, that is, not productive research in the classic sense) is expensive and time consuming.

The funding for this is peanuts compared to the money used in animal models all the time. The only way you can do away with the use of animal model is to pressurise both the industry and the regulators to change the policies and to fund the "zero research" i was talking about.

Fence sitters wont really make a difference in this situation, as it is the case in many other issues as well. Of course everyone is against unnecessary suffering imposed on animals - there is one in the eye for those who believe that causing unnecessary suffering is perfectly fine grin

i think vivisection industry is a fine example of capitalism in action, and thats why it can't really be opposed as a single issue.

besides (as i always say in these threads) since in our current culture it is perfectly fine to eat 80-90 animals per year just for dietary habit reasons, why not waste a few rats, and sometimes bigger mammals, for some product testing. So the change has to be a bit more fundamental than just being against vivisection.

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May 8 2006 20:30

its the average, you are such a skinny runt i can't see you putting away more than 40 a year wink

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May 8 2006 20:31

actually the number is going up all the time because "health conscious" diet habits seem to favour chicken more than large animals like a cow.

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May 8 2006 21:16

yeah i know, you are a tough guy alright.

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pingtiao
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May 8 2006 21:29

JDMF: good, reasoned post as usual.

The thing is that without a transcendent morality that makes everyone (or at least a significant minority enough to force a shift in investment patterns) agree that the increase in human labour required to shift away from an animal model is worth the moral good in not using them for research purposes, it is never going to happen.

Fuck, on rereading, that is garbled crap.

I don't think that it is likely that you will get a major section of the population to have the influence to impose enough work to make the shift viable. A majority is likely, for the forseeable future, to prefer the 'subsidy' of animal lives for human labour. That is on top of the fact that the market selects against big enough investment to shift models.