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Anti-War Demo on the 19 March

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woofnbark
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Feb 9 2005 20:13
Anti-War Demo on the 19 March

Yippy another walk around London landscape.

Another anti-war demo is to be held on the 19 March which is a Saturday but that is all the details I got. I believe coaches are being organised.

Anybody else going?

Thora
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Feb 9 2005 20:21
woofnbark wrote:
Anybody else going?

Probably, despite my better judgement. Actually I'll probably go to the pub and just join the march at the end in the vain hope something might kick off.

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cantdocartwheels
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Feb 9 2005 20:48

yeah, its worth it with that goddamn new ''Serious Organised Crime and Police Bill'' thing they want to bring in, a decent showing would probly be a good idea.

revolt
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Feb 9 2005 22:03
Quote:
Probably, despite my better judgement. Actually I'll probably go to the pub and just join the march at the end in the vain hope something might kick off.

Can't you just go down the pub saturday night, less effort and guarenteed to kick off (and will probably do more to stop the war)

Thora
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Feb 10 2005 01:28
revolt wrote:
Can't you just go down the pub saturday night, less effort and guarenteed to kick off (and will probably do more to stop the war)

Nyeh. But there might be some really fit revolutionary type in a mask I can cop off with at the war thing, rather than just plain old chavs.

spike
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Feb 10 2005 12:00

i'll be there - peddling my wares.

no, not whistles, but cake, "cake against custody!" an attempt to raise some money to pay off some ofines accrued by myslef and other naughty manc folk wink

so, buy cake on march the 19th, or else! grin black bloc red n black star circle A

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Refused
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Feb 10 2005 12:04
Thora wrote:
revolt wrote:
Can't you just go down the pub saturday night, less effort and guarenteed to kick off (and will probably do more to stop the war)

Nyeh. But there might be some really fit revolutionary type in a mask I can cop off with at the war thing, rather than just plain old chavs.

You're thinking of Wayne, aren't you?

grumble
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Feb 10 2005 19:09

Looking for someone to pull?

Here your link on coaches going to the demo. http//www.stopwar.org.uk/new/events/national/19mar05/coaches.htm

O.k. I know it's run by WtW Coalition.

Vaneigemappreci...
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Feb 14 2005 11:12

I'm gonna head down, still harbouring illusions of hijacking the anti-war movement and turning it inot some sort of anarchist mob!!

Anyhow, few beers, maybe a spliff or two, be a good day out, better than paying £25 to watch the villa get royally done!

Caiman del Barrio
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Feb 17 2005 13:55
Thora wrote:
there might be some really fit revolutionary type in a mask I can cop off with at the war thing

Well Jess is going I think. Although Jack might quibble at how "revolutionary" her politics are....heheh.

Caiman del Barrio
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Feb 17 2005 13:59
revolt wrote:
Can't you just go down the pub saturday night, less effort and guarenteed to kick off (and will probably do more to stop the war)

That's not entirely fair. The constant anti-war sentiment through this country has been somewhat responsible for holding back some of the worst possible excesses of the armies constantly in Iraq. If everyone was pro-war, do you think anyone would really give a fuck about the "prisoner abuse" scandals?? That same sentiment has also weakened Blair and Labour's position considerably, albeit that they have no opposition so that makes little difference.

And let's not forget that an estimated 5,000 American soldiers have deserted from service in Iraq (yes, American soldiers Cantdo tongue).

Now, of course, how much that is down to the anti-war "movement" marching from A to B and how much that is simply down to the media and general feeling "on da streetz" is open to debate, but even so, I think it's more important to have anti-war actions than not have them. And i'm a renowned cynic.

Caiman del Barrio
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Feb 17 2005 16:10

Well yeah, the anti-war "movement" is far from revolutionary and is completely part of the spectacle blah blah blah, but ultimately, if you dislike dying Iraqis and the spread of US hegemony in the Middle East, it's probably wise that you participate in some way.

Vaneigemappreci...
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Feb 17 2005 16:27

Well yeah all specialised and specific protest can be seen as an implicit acceptance of the what is on offer in general, for some it is a 'protest vote', but thats only if each element of society that angers people is looked at in isolation, if you are able to link each one of these elements to the totality, such as linking the war in iraq to the needs of american/global capitalism to perpetuate and expand itself, the poll tax as part of an ongoing attack on the working class etc, then you may be able to open other peoples minds to the broader picture, many people who come to participate in radical politics will do so by first encountering the likes of the SWP, anti-war movements, animal liberation campaigns, boycotting campaigns, etc, generally people arent initially wooed or seduced by the attraction of class struggle politics, but are attracted by campaigns on the fringe, isolated and bit part struggles, but in time either through speaking to others on these events or reading up on theories and actions that they have been introduced to through these campaigns they become more radicalised, they are able to link struggles to everyday experience, and gradually that everyday experience can become the base from which their critique grows and finds its battle ground.

These kind of fragmentary and disjointed protests will continue on the left for the forseable future, surely its better to be an influence in a form of dissent that you can see the impotence of, rather than simply abstaining from the protest altogether. That is unless you have something more potent planned? Perhaps the anti-war movement is a bad example, because the large majority of people who are part of it are in effect expressing a gesture of disapproval with a misguided government policy and are most probably not all that discontent with the system as a whole (at the moment), but i'm sure that for many the movement will act as a eye opener to the wider struggle, the daily ubiquitous fight against capital and its agenda and the interconnectedness of a myriad of other struggles such as the one against the war in iraq. The anti-war movement does seem a little toothless and blind but i think there are elements within it that are genuinely pissed off with the wider picture and express their discontent through events like this, events which do often resemble football matches in their function as a special event at which to vent your spleen and go home feeling all the more better for it.

Complaining about anything in isolation, in fact just complaining in general isnt revolutionary or effective in the struggle if we see it as picking at the 'bad bits' of contemporary capitalism, (like complaining about the inefficency of the trains), but i dont think that when people express their discontent they are thinking that everything else is 'fine just fine' its just that people find causes more accesible and easier to focus on as a point of contention, its just a focal point of a general anger for some people. Shouldnt we be highlighting the totality of capitalist organisation, the impotence of specialised protest and the need for more direct and effective action to those who are least (in principal (as well as social position)) on our side?

AnarchoAl
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Feb 18 2005 14:06
woofnbark wrote:
Yippy another walk around London landscape.

Another anti-war demo is to be held on the 19 March which is a Saturday but that is all the details I got. I believe coaches are being organised.

Anybody else going?

I'll be walking around the Glasgwegian landscape. Not that the fact of a demo in Glasgow has stopped the local Trots from putting up posters everywhere saying "go to London" that don't even mention the local demo...

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Feb 18 2005 15:20
Alan_is_Fucking_Dead wrote:
And let's not forget that an estimated 5,000 American soldiers have deserted from service in Iraq

Yeah? I've not heard that one before -- any more info?

Caiman del Barrio
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Feb 18 2005 19:22

Schnews I think, so probably nearer 5.

Nick Durie
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Feb 19 2005 01:09
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The problem for revolutionaires is to grasp how this opposition has been so ineffectual, what role these mass oppositional marches play in the absence of a wider movement opposing capitals hegemony in the the banality of everyday life. [...]

Basically, it's fucking class!

I couldn't agree more.

Quote:
How these big spectalces such as war have now framed the boundaries of politics, the end of ideology thesis is soo total that the only thing that moves us to opposition are those events that threaten its truth. In our opposition to these blatnant and fragmented moments of domination are we legitimising the very day to day mechanisms of control?

That all sounds very situ, but I think on the left we overanalyse these things. As you said 'it's fucking class' - what class of people are dying in Iraq? What happens when the squaddies come home maimed and/or brutalized? A consistently communist approach requires us to be seen to be campaigning against injustice wherever we find it however we can. We can't claim to be a mass working class movement at the moment, so we shouldn't try (before people pull up the situ straw man of merely providing a left-wing spectacle by not 'going out and smashing things till the war ends).

Basically at the moment all those pissed off proletarian sisters and brothers will return home to find popular culture a self-referencing Hell of lies and the political system a crock of shit and they won't be able to see an alternative.

We need to have good agit-prop. We need to have consistent communist approach and we need to rebuild the infrastructure of solidarity amongst our brothers and sisters which since the post-war period have been attacked and severely damaged. Yes it's class but I think we need to mandate comrades to represent the cause on every one of these events as the representatives of the only true force for communism, just as we need to be engaged in building social centres, starting and maintaining co-operatives, running alternative credit unions and labour exchanges, taking over the unions and working with the syndicalists as a voice for anarchism. We cannot disengage from the struggle, even on fronts where it seems we're banging our head against the wall but we need to be the best we can be at the moment.

If we do this people will enlist in the revolutionary struggle. If we don't we will remain a club more than a movement for people who want to opt out of society. We don't need to worry about reification or other situ nonsense IMO. If we were to take Vaneigem seriously then an act of theft is revolutionary but having militants who are paid, and can thus absorb themselves the better in the class war without having to worry about cash flow, is counter-revolutionary. 'Comrades - there is no other option! We all have to spend the rest of our lives engaged in having introverted sex parties and devoting our spare time to writing paranoid rambles about how only fifty people will ever understand what we write, and over half of them will be actively working for the maintenance and strength of the spectacular order'.

As you put it, basically it's class, and I can see no better way of engaging with our class and building our resistance to capital than by the approach outlined above.

Solidarity,

:red: Nick Durie red n black star

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Steven.
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Feb 19 2005 11:51
Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
Alan_is_Fucking_Dead wrote:
And let's not forget that an estimated 5,000 American soldiers have deserted from service in Iraq

Yeah? I've not heard that one before -- any more info?

It was a Freedom front page... will try to get hold of sources for you (shit we need to put stuff online...)

Caiman del Barrio
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Feb 19 2005 17:41

To be honest, I think the best thing the left wing can do is keep issues like Iraq (and previous wars fought with similar motivations) prominent in the public's mind so that when they start organising for an invasion of the next target, people haven't forgotten what happened last time. This would also demonstrate how war (and all the suffering that comes with it) is an instrinsic part of capitalism.

Vaneigemappreci...
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Feb 21 2005 10:52
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If we were to take Vaneigem seriously then an act of theft is revolutionary but having militants who are paid, and can thus absorb themselves the better in the class war without having to worry about cash flow, is counter-revolutionary.

Someone who steals for a living, illegally that is, IS more revolutionary than some 'militant' who works for the SWP and to be honest i dont know how working in the machanics of 'revolutionary' bureaucracies enables you to be more in touch with the class war, surely it just enables you to make a living in another bureaucracy like working for the council or a bank and ultimately (if its a decent pay and you support their cause) work for the perpetuation of that bureaucracy. Are you trying to say that if you are able to avoid working for a company, in a situation which puts you at the heart of the class war, then you are better positioned to involve yourself in the class strughle? How? By writing about the brutalities of global corporations and lamenting police aggression towards protesters?

Nick Durie
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Feb 21 2005 11:57

This should be elevated to a new thread I feel, perhaps linked to the Thought section. I will respond to it in due course.

>> If we were to take Vaneigem seriously then an act of theft is

>> revolutionary but having militants who are paid, and can thus absorb >> themselves the better in the class war without having to worry about >> cash flow, is counter-revolutionary.

>

>

> Someone who steals for a living, illegally that is, IS more revolutionary > than some 'militant' who works for the SWP and to be honest i dont > know how working in the machanics of 'revolutionary' bureaucracies

> enables you to be more in touch with the class war, surely it just

> enables you to make a living in another bureaucracy like working for

> the council or a bank and ultimately (if its a decent pay and you support > their cause) work for the perpetuation of that bureaucracy. Are you

> trying to say that if you are able to avoid working for a company, in a > situation which puts you at the heart of the class war, then you are

> better positioned to involve yourself in the class strughle? How? By

> writing about the brutalities of global corporations and lamenting police > aggression towards protesters?

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Steven.
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Feb 21 2005 13:39

shall I split this to a thread in Thought?

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cantdocartwheels
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Feb 22 2005 20:38

er what's wrong with being employed by a bank? confused