About "My experience in the ICC - Devrim Valerian"

39 posts / 0 new
Last post
meerov21
Offline
Joined: 14-08-13
Oct 8 2013 16:57
About "My experience in the ICC - Devrim Valerian"

Many of us read this: http://www.libcom.org/library/my-experience-icc-devrim-valerian

So,
what do you think about an attempt to create international council-communist (left-communist) movement (on the platform of KAPD - AAUD-E or something like that) without being somithing like ICC? Whithout this total authoritarian "micro--manajment" of international secretariat and paranoid "parasites discussions" of ICC stile?

Even ICC have comrades in 16 states.
So why other left-communists can't?

Devrim's picture
Devrim
Offline
Joined: 15-07-06
Oct 10 2013 18:25

I think that it would be totally artificial. I think that it is the wrong way to go about it completely, and that you have to build things that are real, and not try to create them from the top down.

How would you even start to go about it?

Devrim

Theft's picture
Theft
Offline
Joined: 17-08-11
Oct 10 2013 18:08
meerov21 wrote:
Many of us read this: http://www.libcom.org/library/my-experience-icc-devrim-valerian

So,
what do you think about an attempt to create international council-communist (left-communist) movement (on the platform of KAPD - AAUD-E or something like that) without being somithing like ICC? Whithout this total authoritarian "micro--manajment" of international secretariat and paranoid "parasites discussions" of ICC stile?

Even ICC have comrades in 16 states.
So why other left-communists can't?

That's a large spectrum of ideas you have covered there?

meerov21
Offline
Joined: 14-08-13
Oct 11 2013 11:56

How would you even start to go about it?

What about network of activists who belive that autonomy of workers counciles is only the way for social revolution?
If you think this way...
If you are against unions...
If you believe that ideological revolutionary minority can only propagates ideas and\or initiate workers struggle against bosses and unions but it must not be an administration of workers...
If you deny nationalism and support international cooperation of workers...
If you think such a network should be based on the broadest autonomy of local groups and absolute freedom of discussion, and, at the same time, on the collective planning of joint action (if you have reasons for the action)...

What else do you need? What is artificial about the network of like-minded persons?

klas batalo's picture
klas batalo
Offline
Joined: 5-07-09
Oct 11 2013 17:33
meerov21 wrote:
Some council communists insisted that a communist workers party that has territorial organization is able to act as a social and ideological inspirer of the revolutionary struggle, but it mustn’t seize power in the councils, it mustn’t replace council’s authority by its own. Such party should act on the basis of the broadest possible autonomy of its local sections. Other council communists were in favor of ideological organizations established strictly on the production principle (cells in enterprises, united in association). In any case, council communists said two things. First, it is necessary to establish councils’ autonomy, second, there should be organizations of revolutionary minority that would spread this idea and combat its enemies.

I think this here gets at a lot of it, there is a need for a revolutionary minority (call it party/union I do not care, though I'm probably more partial to union) that defends the autonomous self-organization of the struggle (via struggle committees, strike committees, councils). Probably should tie together the territorial struggle with that around the struggle over production.

I think a way that council communists would be able to make this more organic would be to start a process of finding each other, any groups that remain, and start a period of rapprochement and regroupment of forces. I mean there is the Free Communist, Echanges et Mouvement, some other threads on here about other groups like the Strike/KAP group in German IWW.

But yeah personally I think the KAUD were too late, but they were merging the tradition of the KAPD and the AAUDs for a sorta communist workers' unionism a la "marxist version of anarcho-syndicalism."

Theft's picture
Theft
Offline
Joined: 17-08-11
Oct 11 2013 17:37

Have you looked at http://www.leftcom.org/ ? Not council-communist, but interesting for anyone looking at left communism.

klas batalo's picture
klas batalo
Offline
Joined: 5-07-09
Oct 11 2013 17:41

ICT is interesting because though the CWO was sorta founded around the platform of the KAPD Essen tendency/the program of the KAI they have now regrouped with PCInt internationally who are more Damenist, as compared to the more council communist thrust of their beginnings. I'm very sympathetic to them, and if my Septmember didn't totally suck was gonna submit an article for them on the fast food "strikes".

meerov21
Offline
Joined: 14-08-13
Oct 11 2013 19:49

I wood like to add: people like that shood not be pure marxsists. Not at all.
I think 90% of 300.000 councilists of Gernany in 1918-1923 were not marxsists at all.))

meerov21
Offline
Joined: 14-08-13
Oct 11 2013 19:55

Theft i have very bad expiriense with so called "left communism"
From sects like ICC to some bordigists or "left leninist" many of them have totaly totalitarian ideas.
From another side i have nothing against people who take some ideas from Bordiga but refuse his totalitarian ideas about party and class.

Theft's picture
Theft
Offline
Joined: 17-08-11
Oct 12 2013 17:28

I attended part of the CWO's AGM last week and came out of it without been bitten by "Leninists". They also have a meeting at the Bookfair next weekend http://www.leftcom.org/en/adverts/2013-10-19/public-meeting-in-the-anarc... that you maybe interested in.

Have you looked at Afed or Solfed? as both have been influenced by councilist ideas at different points in there history. Can't speak for Solfed, but in the 90's some Afed (ACF as it was then) members like myself where influenced by groups such as Wildcat and Subversion, the latter had close relationship with Afed including having at least one joint Day school here in Sheffield and some of its members went on to join when Subversion dissolved.

Theft's picture
Theft
Offline
Joined: 17-08-11
Oct 12 2013 17:27

Also worth checking out 'In the Tradition' http://afed.org.uk/publications/pamphlets-booklets/95-in-the-tradition.h...

Devrim's picture
Devrim
Offline
Joined: 15-07-06
Oct 13 2013 13:41
meerov21 wrote:
How would you even start to go about it?

What about network of activists who belive that autonomy of workers counciles is only the way for social revolution?
If you think this way...
If you are against unions...
If you believe that ideological revolutionary minority can only propagates ideas and\or initiate workers struggle against bosses and unions but it must not be an administration of workers...
If you deny nationalism and support international cooperation of workers...
If you think such a network should be based on the broadest autonomy of local groups and absolute freedom of discussion, and, at the same time, on the collective planning of joint action (if you have reasons for the action)...

What else do you need? What is artificial about the network of like-minded persons?

OK, so you have a vague idea of the ideas that you want to group people around. What would the point of this network be though? I don't think that you can just decree that there should be a network of some kind. I think that it would be a good thing if there were some sort of network like this, but there isn't. I don't think to create one out of thin air is a solution. It has to come from contacts between real existing groups that have an actual practice linked to the class struggle, building links between themselves. You can't create it artifically.

Devrim

klas batalo's picture
klas batalo
Offline
Joined: 5-07-09
Oct 13 2013 16:31

Devrim it's a bit a question of chicken or the egg right though? I mean we know there are not many council communist influenced groups today, but there are certainly a lot of people, and I assume the ones on the more Marxist end of the spectrum may be interested in creating their own local groups, and so maybe discussing with other like minded individuals in some sort of network on how to go about doing that may be beneficial for them? There is a Council Communism group on Facebook that such people could communicate around. Also Theft here hosts a lot of council communists texts on his website The Free Communist, and that has an independent forum as well, if you don't use Facebook.

Android
Offline
Joined: 7-07-08
Oct 13 2013 17:39
Quote:
I mean we know there are not many council communist influenced groups today, but there are certainly a lot of people, and I assume the ones on the more Marxist end of the spectrum may be interested in creating their own local groups, and so maybe discussing with other like minded individuals in some sort of network on how to go about doing that may be beneficial for them?

There is a difference between being influenced by council communism and being a council communist. Apart from how ridiculous the latter sounds. I really don't think there are that many council communists around, let alone enough to set up a local groups.

I really don't place much value in internet political affiliation except where there is a clear real world crossover and comprehension of the political content. As I have seen many people claim to be many things whilst holding extremely contradictory ideas. And I have even seen some people involved in 'real world' politics do this, e.g. at least 2 US supporters of left-wing Irish nationalism claim to be or influenced by council communism.

klas batalo's picture
klas batalo
Offline
Joined: 5-07-09
Oct 13 2013 19:28

it matters little to me or not if there are really existing materially council communist groups who have direct lineage or understanding that approximates exactly the traditions of the OG council communists...

but let's say if meerov21 and others who are influenced by council communism want to associate and network around creating local groups inspired by some of these politics...is that really a bad and or impossible thing? it's the content of many of the positions that matter more than the historical legacy or label, surely?

Theft's picture
Theft
Offline
Joined: 17-08-11
Oct 13 2013 22:25

Agree with Android on this, that said there are things like the Midland Discussion Forum that would prob be of interest to meerov21 in terms of some of the discussions.

meerov21
Offline
Joined: 14-08-13
Oct 20 2013 22:49

It has to come from contacts between real existing groups that have an actual practice linked to the class struggle, building links between themselves. You can't create it artifically.

Devrim, i have a few questions for you:

1. So do you know groopes or individuals with a council communist ideas who "have an actual practice linked to the class struggle"?

2. If yes what is so "artificall" about the idea to start contacts with tham? Even if there are 2 groopes and 3 individuals (in another plase)?

3. Did you have a class struggle linked groopes then you enterd ICC sect?

meerov21
Offline
Joined: 14-08-13
Oct 20 2013 22:48

Android

"There is a difference between being influenced by council communism and being a council communist. Apart from how ridiculous the latter sounds"

What is so ridiculous?
Here is my opinion about it:
http://www.libcom.org/forums/theory/council-communism-need-organization-...
http://www.libcom.org/forums/theory/need-rise-against-trade-unions-19082...

meerov21
Offline
Joined: 14-08-13
Oct 22 2013 14:19

It has to come from contacts between real existing groups

Ok
What about this groupe?
http://thecommune.co.uk/1-2/
I heard about the same groupes in Franse and Germany.
But i can not making work for contacts between such a groupes just by myself.
From anothe side a am totaly desagree with strange ideas of people like Caio Brendel. I don't know what is "artifically" or "not artifically". This is work and it can be done meaningly by the activists. Not automatically.

Theft's picture
Theft
Offline
Joined: 17-08-11
Oct 22 2013 15:09

The Commune doesn't exist as a group really anymore and from my understanding it is now only one person here in Sheffield.

meerov21
Offline
Joined: 14-08-13
Oct 22 2013 15:17

What happen with tham?

jura's picture
jura
Offline
Joined: 25-07-08
Oct 22 2013 20:09

Briefly, the communist recomposition ended in decomposition.

Devrim's picture
Devrim
Offline
Joined: 15-07-06
Oct 23 2013 08:29
meerov21 wrote:
Devrim, i have a few questions for you:

Before I answer them I just want to stress that by "have an actual practice linked to the class struggle", I didn't mean any great thing. I didn't mean that they had to be leading strikes of hundreds of thousands of workers, just that they had to be a group who were orientated towards the class struggle, rather than artificially setting up an international organisation 'from above' as it were, and picking up various individuals in various countries.

meerov21 wrote:
1. So do you know groopes or individuals with a council communist ideas who "have an actual practice linked to the class struggle"?

No, I don't think that there are any council communist groups left nowadays. There are groups influenced to some extent or the other by council communism, but not actual council communist groups.

meerov21 wrote:
2. If yes what is so "artificall" about the idea to start contacts with tham? Even if there are 2 groopes and 3 individuals (in another plase)?

Unfortunately I don't think that there are two groups.

meerov21 wrote:
3. Did you have a class struggle linked groopes then you enterd ICC sect?

By the above definition, yes we did. We had a monthly paper. we distributed leaflets to workers on strike, etc. My impression is that this is not the norm for groups entering the ICC though.

Devrim

meerov21
Offline
Joined: 14-08-13
Oct 23 2013 14:05

meerov21 wrote:

So do you know groopes or individuals with a council communist ideas who "have an actual practice linked to the class struggle"?

Devrim
No, I don't think that there are any council communist groups left nowadays. There are groups influenced to some extent or the other by council communism, but not actual council communist groups.

Ok. So may be it is possible to make sort of network with such a groups?
I am not talking about councilist organisation right naw. Just network for discussions and information.
In fact i did not know you have a text about riots in Egypt, Turkey and Brazil and i opened that text just by pure accident then i prepared lecture for my friends...

P.S. I am also not pure councilist. Not at all.
The main idea for me is an autonomy of workers counciles and pure rejection of legal unions and trade-unionism.

meerov21
Offline
Joined: 14-08-13
Oct 23 2013 14:52

What is Círculo Internacional de Comunistas Antibolcheviques (CICA). ?

georgestapleton's picture
georgestapleton
Offline
Joined: 4-08-05
Oct 23 2013 15:58
meerov21 wrote:
What happen with tham?

Jura's answer is funnier that mine, and just as accurate, but quickly....

In order of importance...

1. The group was small and and even smaller number of people did the work involved in keeping it going. And in the space of a year most of these members stopped being involved. This happened in the following order: one left for political/personal reasons, another lives half the time in India, another moved to Eygpt, I moved to Ireland and another moved to Rome.

2. The group started as a open discussion group and then started to develop into a national organisation, but while I was a member we couldn't agree what that organisation would be or what it would do.

3. There were some slightly odd personal problems and conflicts in the group, which I won't go into.

meerov21
Offline
Joined: 14-08-13
Oct 23 2013 18:21

georgestapleton, thank you for information!
What do you think about ideas i put in this topik and here:
http://www.libcom.org/forums/theory/council-communism-need-organization-... ?

paul r
Offline
Joined: 18-01-11
Oct 31 2013 12:14

FWIW, I'm the only person I know here in Sydney interested in council communism. Maybe there are others, but I don't know of any. The only Marxists I know who aren't some variety of Leninist (usually Trotskyists or "neo-Trots") are Autonomists who are into Negri, Tronti, etc. and who reject the council communist tradition and demands such as for workers' self-management, but who are definitely quite active in participating in industrial action and social protests. Most of the anarchists I've associated with are anti-Marxists, and in accordance with some sort of anarchist prejudice, tend to lump all Marxists together.

klas batalo's picture
klas batalo
Offline
Joined: 5-07-09
Nov 1 2013 01:34

actually if you look on these forums over the years there has been lots of australian council communist interest.

paul r
Offline
Joined: 18-01-11
Nov 1 2013 10:58

that's news to me!

Devrim's picture
Devrim
Offline
Joined: 15-07-06
Nov 1 2013 13:39

I think there were a few people in Sydney a couple of years ago. There is/was a poster on here, Peter, who was close to council communism though in Canberra, not Sydney. They used to publish pamphlets under the name 'Treason Press'. There are, I think, some people in Sydney, and he would be a good person to ask. I don't know if he still uses this site, but you could try pming him on here. If he doesn't respond, I think I might have his email address somewhere, and I could write a tell him (obviously I don't want t give out someone's email to strangers).

Devrim