a few qs

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vicent
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Jun 7 2013 01:12
a few qs

hello
this has probably been discussed before (sorry), so if you want to just show me some links thatd be great!

how do anarchists propose transforming countries like ours which are very service sector based?
why unionise our workforce when much of it is completely unnecessarily?

also what implications do you think the removal of the retail industry caused by internet shopping will have?
and also the coming problem of a huge old retired population?

did hawke do this on purpose to prevent militancy or just because it was cool at the time?

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/1301.0~2012~...

thanks!

vicent
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Jun 7 2013 01:19

also what are your thoughts on this?

http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/graham-purchase-anarchist-organis...

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Agent of the In...
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Jun 7 2013 18:37

Did he say towards the end that we need a 'party'?

I just found the whole thing confusing.

I was disappointed with one of his earlier texts, 'Anarcho-Syndicalism, Technology and Ecology'.

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Chilli Sauce
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Jun 9 2013 07:28
Quote:
how do anarchists propose transforming countries like ours which are very service sector based?
why unionise our workforce when much of it is completely unnecessarily?

FWIW, you organise/unionise now to improve working conditions, gain higher pay, and to build up the skills and confidence to confront capital--ideally always with a view towards revolutionary social transformation.

I don't think any of have an idea that anarcho-communism will just be same as capitalism but under workers control. Rather, it will be a transformation of social relations (to the point that 'work' as a concept no longer exists) and there will be a far-reaching discussion on what industries need to exist and how to reconfigure the entire system of production.

Ablokeimet
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Jun 9 2013 07:51
Agent of the Fifth International wrote:
Did he say towards the end that we need a 'party'?

Purchase said two things which were in apparent contraction (emphasis added):

1. "Obviously, what is needed is a party structure, not a propaganda group attempting the mega-utopian project of creating a communist utopia within the shell of their own propaganda group, in the absence of any economic link with the real world. However, in the absence of a party structure some organisation is required. "

2. "It is important to realise that a propaganda group is a means to an end and not an end in itself and the failure to appreciate this results in the re-emergence of partyism and governmentalism (or the propaganda group or intellectual leadership becomes a party or government in waiting) A development which is fatal to the development of an anarchist society."

From the perspective of an Anarchist Communist, I can make some comments of clarification. First of all, the word "party" actually has two meanings. The usual meaning when the word is used in a political context is a "political party", engaged in the Parliamentary process or otherwise engaged in the pursuit of State power. The other meaning, however, is an older one, which people use when talking about a wedding party, or a hunting party. It is a group of people come together for a common purpose, but it carries no connotation of what its form of organisation is going to be. And, as a point of historical interest, it is this meaning that Marx & Engels had in mind when they wrote The Manifesto of the Communist Party.

What Purchase is talking about is closer to the modern, restricted meaning than it is to the older meaning. As an Anarchist Communist, I oppose the use of the word "party" to describe the organisation I am trying to build, because it carries the meaning for most people that it will attempt to participate in Parliamentary politics, or alternatively will attempt to seize State power for itself through a revolution like was made in Russia. I do favour, however, the existence of Anarchist political organisations, operating on the basis of federalism, theoretical unity, tactical unity and collective responsibility.

If I may be so bold as to imagine myself reading the mind of a person I've never met, my guess is that Purchase wants an Anarchist Communist political organisation - but he doesn't know it. I'd certainly be interested in finding out whether I'm right.

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Jun 9 2013 16:30
Ablokeimet wrote:
From the perspective of an Anarchist Communist, I can make some comments of clarification. First of all, the word "party" actually has two meanings. The usual meaning when the word is used in a political context is a "political party", engaged in the Parliamentary process or otherwise engaged in the pursuit of State power. The other meaning, however, is an older one, which people use when talking about a wedding party, or a hunting party. It is a group of people come together for a common purpose, but it carries no connotation of what its form of organisation is going to be.

That's usually something a Marxist would do. They advocate the former, and act as if they mean the latter.

Its also like the debate around the "workers' state". Bakunin proved it made no sense to use the word "state" if all they mean is a workers' organisation. If they [i.e. Marxists] truly believed in a workers' organisation, why do they insist on calling it a state when all states have only been centralized and designed for minority rule?

It seems weird that a self-identified anarchist, Purchase, would make that mistake.

Ablokeimet
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Jun 10 2013 00:03
Agent of the Fifth International wrote:
It seems weird that a self-identified anarchist, Purchase, would make that mistake.

In my experience, self-identified Anarchists commonly make all sorts of mistakes. If you don't hand out licences upon passing a formal examination, it's the risk you take. I've seen some pretty amazing things said in the name of Anarchism.

Purchase can probably make a case that what he wants fits technically into the definition of the word "party", but doesn't imply what Marxists traditionally mean by it. That doesn't make it a useful term, though. In that, it is actually like the term "dictatorship of the proletariat". Some Leninist groups argue that "Socialism is the dictatorship of the proletariat in the same sense that Parliamentary democracy is the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie". Using that definition, I can accept that, after the Revolution and during the transition to Libertarian Communism, society would experience "the dictatorship of the proletariat". The working class would dictate the basic organisational structures of society, while others who have not yet been assimilated into the working class (and therefore classes have not yet totally been dissolved) will need to work within those structures.

The problem with the term, however, arises because, having demonstrated the legitimacy of the term "dictatorship" in the specialised meaning outlined above, Leninists then proceed to use the word with its ordinary meaning and act as if there is no difference (i.e. that "dictatorship" in the ordinary sense has been justified as being in the interest of the workers). For this reason, I regard the term "dictatorship of the proletariat" as, not merely unhelpful, but positively dangerous. Anarchists should avoid it like the plague, since it is part of a rhetorical trick which is used by Leninists to get subjective revolutionaries to agree to (and to promote) slavery in the cause of liberation.

For similar reasons, I believe Anarchists should avoid the word "party" to describe the organisations they want to build, even if they might fit into a broad definition of the term. An Anarchist Communist political organisation has a different purpose from a "political party" (i.e. it does not aim to seize control of the State), has a different structure (i.e. consistent federalism rather than "democratic centralism") and functions in a different way (i.e. it acts as a consciously revolutionary minority within the class struggle, rather than attempting to seize the "leadership" of it). If we use the word "party" to describe what we are trying to build, we will disorient the vast number of working class people who have come to detest political parties quite heartily and consequently risk rehabilitating other, non-Anarchist, parties which do not have the ability to do it themselves.

happyanarchy
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Jun 13 2013 04:18

"how do anarchists propose transforming countries like ours which are very service sector based?
why unionise our workforce when much of it is completely unnecessarily?"

My very first thought on reading this was remembering being in the elevator late Friday afternoon inside of one of those towers on Eagle St (financial sector in Brisbane)

I was with a Senior manager for a major multinational financial corporation. He was just complaining quitely to me that he makes a bucket of money, but has a 60+ hour week. That the only time he see's his kids during the week was while they were asleep when he leaves for work in the morning, and comes home late at night. But he loves having the cash, wants to give his kids the best society can offer, and doesn't know what else he could do anyway.

The elevator was quiet, till one guy said very loudly "We are being treated like dogs. We need a union. We need to stand up together, and not take their bullshit anymore". Everyone else quietly grumbled agreement, and that was the end of that.

So here is one reason to organise. To give vision of a different way to live. We have so many material goods already. There is no rational reason for people to do 60+ hours per week, on unproductive and soul destroying work.

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Jun 13 2013 15:39

There is another reason to organise. To recover wages owed to workers who haven't been paid for work done, among many other things. Can you tell us about the company Sustainable Gardening who haven't paid their workers? I heard the BSN might be doing a solidarity action. Does anyone know the story up there?

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Jun 19 2013 00:03
Lugius wrote:
There is another reason to organise. To recover wages owed to workers who haven't been paid for work done, among many other things. Can you tell us about the company Sustainable Gardening who haven't paid their workers? I heard the BSN might be doing a solidarity action. Does anyone know the story up there?

Ask happyanarchy as he was the owner of that business that commissioned the labour off our workers collective, but you will probably get the same response the workers got.

Absolutely none.

I have all documentation and correspondence on the work.

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ites
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Jun 22 2013 10:56
axxs wrote:
Absolutely none..

Which also happens to describe the amount returned to me from quite a substantial loan I extended to Lugius to get the Red and Black Reggae CD produced some years ago, though I would no more expect to see that money ever again than I would expect Lugius to allow himself to be held accountable to the same standards he has no problem at all applying to others.

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Jun 23 2013 02:18

This was not a loan, this was a donation.

Loan
noun
1.
the act of lending; a grant of the temporary use of something: the loan of a book.
2.
something lent or furnished on condition of being returned, especially a sum of money lent at interest: a $1000 loan at 10 percent interest.

The CDs were produced for purpose of raising funds and 500 were pressed. Less than ten remain and are available at the MAC infoshop, so hurry while stocks last!

These tracks were written by myself and others, performed in a recording studio by myself and others and produced by me with someone else mixing.

These CDs were produced under the name of the Vincente Ruiz Foundation, commemorating a CNT exile who arrived in Melbourne in 1965 and lived there until his death in 1990.

The Russian section of the IWA, the KRAS, got in touch and asked to reproduce the CD for the purpose of raising funds. It was agreed that they could produce as many as they like.

The copyright for the tracks on the CD was transferred to the IWA to be held by the IWA in perpetuity and administered by the IWA Secretariat. The IWA holds the legal right to pursue any infringement of copyright. This is a written legally-binding agreement, a copy of which is hel d by an accountant in Johnston St., Fitzroy.

The ASF has made these tracks available for download under fair use terms. If it is discovered that other parties are producing these tracks for profit that benefits any individual or organisation other than the IWA or IWA sections or individuals mandated by such, Their arses will slung into court with such speed that would make lightning bolts feel like glaciers.

Do·na·tion
noun
1.
an act or instance of presenting something as a gift, grant, or contribution.
2.
a gift, as to a fund; contribution.

When one makes a donation, presumably one does so in good faith. Donation implies a transfer of ownership.

If ites feels he has a valid claim, he can hire a brace of hot silks and take it up with the IWA Secretariat.

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Jun 23 2013 02:24

These tracks are available for download here:

http://asf-iwa.org.au/audio/

They are intended for the listening and entertainment pleasure of comrades everywhere. (Under fair use terms)

Does anyone dare challenge my claim to be the world's greatest anarcho-syndicalist reggae bass player?

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Jun 23 2013 12:07

admin warning: do not derail this turning it into yet another Oceania thread based around personal disputes some of you had years ago FFS

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Jun 24 2013 07:50

A workers collective was employed by that business and have not had those wages paid by the employer, who refuses to even respond to communications from the workers. And yes the registered business owner is on libcom, which does cause tensions for some of us that are owed wages.

All the paperwork is available, emails of acceptance of commencement of work, emails that have the employer stating basically 'the monies coming' and it never has.

We did approach BSN in regard it, yes Lugius, we are also going to try a few other avenues and have been talking with people that have been employed by the company in the past in regard some other disputes and getting stuff together.

happyanarchy
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Jul 2 2013 01:33

I consider axxs comments to be defamatory and an act of continued online bullying, and I have no interest in participating in another flame war.

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Jul 2 2013 02:07

It would only be defamatory if it were untrue.

Did you or did you not employ people and then not pay them?

Were you or were you not the proprietor of a business registered in Queensland?

'Earth's Garden Organic Nursery'

If axxs is deliberately using this list to make false allegations, he should be banned from the list.

If it is true, should you not explain?

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Jul 2 2013 02:45

Happyanarchy, my comments are not untrue. You can call them defamatory but I have all the paperwork not a problem, all the emails time stamped and on file.

You hired Netaxxs, a workers collective to build you a website for your business. I have all the emails of you accepting the quote, of agreeing to the work, of checking the work, and the final one we got from you stating 'Social Ventures Australia" was going to pay for it if we sent it all in once invoice, which we subsequently did. Then all the ones afterward you refused to even answer.

We waited and provided services for months afterward, sending you emails stating if you had a problem with paying just talk to us, and we will work it out.

We organised our labour at well less than cost price for you, it wasn't even enough to cover our bills for the time we spent on the work (2 weeks of three peoples labour) , but we relied on your paying us to get thru it.

So I am posting here because I have approached the friendship networks here in Brisbane and not much at all has been done about it except for people saying "Yea, it's a difficult situation". Whilst you go as aggressively as you can to put down anything I am involved with, making spurious and false claims about workers disputes to others even after being giving the evidence you denied. Your efforts in this regard have been hostile to the organising myself and others have been trying to do, and hostile to workers that you have employed.

This is an issue of workers not being paid for the labour they have produced, and I am not making a personal attack, anymore than me raising that an employer not paying wages on the libcom forum is a personal attack (is it?). You were running a registered Australian business, and from the little information I have got from others in your employ in that business, getting money from government subsidies to employ them. Is this not true?

You employed our workers collective and did not pay our wages.

I am totally open to dispute resolution/mediation via an independent group and happy to provide all the information we have.

happyanarchy
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Jul 3 2013 02:04

*groan* & * facepalm* Ok I did my best not to bite, but I am so very, very, tired of your ongoing bullshit, and Libcom aren't on top of moderating.

This mediation HAS been offered to you and you refused; AND I have personally tried to directly discuss issues with you. But you actually have no interest in personal resolution. However, you do have an in interest in bullying and bullshit to maintain your own ego. And then sometimes publicly claiming "I'm such a victim" when that doesn't work.

Oh and Ok, so it is a "Worker's Co-operative" now. That's funny because the ATO has you listed as a privately owned partnership.

http://www.abr.business.gov.au/SearchByAbn.aspx?abn=59952141989

Seriously this whole thing this is rich coming from you. Half the Brisbane punk scene knows about how you and your girlfriend just ripped of (female tattooist) of several thousands of dollars of work. You are wearing 'workers theft' on your sleeve. Please, I'm looking forward to your excuses/denials.

But I do think there is a pattern to your behaviour, and my money is on "Dissocial Personality Disorder".

Regardless, just keep away from me, and leave me alone. I mean, there was no need for any of this rubbish on this thread that you started. Except your own malicious intent to publicly degenerate me (online bullying). But it's not just me, it is anyone, who tries to critic or call your out on crap.

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Jul 3 2013 05:39

The question is about entering into agreements to pay people for work done.

Did you or did you not employ people and then not pay them?

I'm talking about this business happyanarchy ran as a sole trader:

http://www.abr.business.gov.au/SearchByAbn.aspx?SearchText=13946956590

Did you employ people while running this business and then not pay them for work they had done for you?

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Jul 3 2013 12:12

Here we go, avoiding facing the simplicity of what we want via obfuscation. We want our wages owed to us for the labour we did.

As I stated above, lets get an independent mediator on this, will you agree to that? Will you agree to go thru this process and agree to what comes from it?

I am. Let's do it. Let's sort this out.

happyanarchy wrote:
*groan* & * facepalm* Ok I did my best not to bite, but I am so very, very, tired of your ongoing bullshit, and Libcom aren't on top of moderating.

It's ongoing, because you have failed to pay workers for their labour.

happyanarchy wrote:
This mediation HAS been offered to you and you refused;

With who? When? You never replied to any of the multiple emails we sent you, we have records of them all.

Blatant lie their mate. Shall I put up all our email correspondence online?

Quote:
AND I have personally tried to directly discuss issues with you.

No you haven't at all. I even tried speaking to your mate T about it, amongst other people.

When I did approach you in regard working with us on the Domino's project, you assaulted me a number of times, and I ended up in hospital. You then went on facebook and stated that the pub had no record of any of it, nor the ambulance picking me up, and that I was the one that assaulted you. All of which I was vindicated in video evidence showing you throwing me around, the pub having records of the assault and also the ambulance records.

That was a lie as well.

Quote:
But you actually have no interest in personal resolution.

'Personal'? No I am after political resolution. You employed our workers collective, had us work for you, and never paid a cent for it. We want our wages.

Quote:
However, you do have an in interest in bullying and bullshit to maintain your own ego. And then sometimes publicly claiming "I'm such a victim" when that doesn't work.

I haven't bullied you, every time I have approached you it's been offering comradeship, and you have spat on it. We worked for you and you refuse to pay. I approached you as Secretary of the ASF-IWA as you are IWW contact in Brisbane and I ended up in hospital.

Bullied you? No, I'm just wanting whats due me as a worker.

Quote:
Oh and Ok, so it is a "Worker's Co-operative" now. That's funny because the ATO has you listed as a privately owned partnership.

http://www.abr.business.gov.au/SearchByAbn.aspx?abn=59952141989

Derp.

In Australia there is no legal recognition of a workers collective. Their are co-operatives, however they do not involve the workers owning the product of their labours.

So we talked to Anarres Books, and to another friend that worked for legal aid (now involved in Solfed) and were told that to trade as a collective, we organise it as a partnership.

We also have provided a copy of our partnership online to many groups, giving workers equal representation in their workers collective and have it recognised in trading in Australia.

You can view it and download it here if interested :

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/398546/Collective%20Partnership%20Agreement.doc

Quote:
Seriously this whole thing this is rich coming from you. Half the Brisbane punk scene knows about how you and your girlfriend just ripped of (female tattooist) of several thousands of dollars of work. You are wearing 'workers theft' on your sleeve. Please, I'm looking forward to your excuses/denials.

oh come on, really? If that's true, then the other half know that we were friends swapping labour and a second instance of me being ripped off by Brisbane people.

I worked for 3 days on her website, she did 6hrs work on me (that's not thousands of dollars seriously sigh). In our friendship I gave her things like an iPhone, and we provided the food for her birthday, lots of things. There wasn't an issue, it was just ongoing stuff.

She is opening a studio in Melbourne and badly needs cash, has been peaking out about it and then turned around and said she wanted me to pay for 3hrs of that 6, at over $800.

I said she has got to be dreaming .. over $250ph for doing a tattoo at her house? I said no, it was a swap of labour and I'm not giving her cash.

She then went out spouting about how my band ripped her off, then that some other people who backed me up on what was happening 'hopes they die of cancer and get hit by a car' blah blah.

She's an old junkie when in Melbourne that ripped off people there, and doing the same now up here. Did she tell you she used only one needle on your tattoo for a reason? wink she bragged about that to us. that's the type of person she is dude.

Quote:
Regardless, just keep away from me, and leave me alone. I mean, there was no need for any of this rubbish on this thread that you started. Except your own malicious intent to publicly degenerate me (online bullying). But it's not just me, it is anyone, who tries to critic or call your out on crap.

I'm not leaving you alone until our wages are paid, and all the whining and obfuscation and lies isn't going to get around it.

Let's do mediation, small claims has free mediation for disputes under $25,000, that is not legally binding. How about we do that and post the results online?

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Ed
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Jul 3 2013 15:23

Right, that's it. Thread locked.

Topic locked