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Debate - Anarchosyndicalism vs. Insurrectionism (Seattle)

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888
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Jul 15 2011 19:34
arminius wrote:
Actually I'm finding it impossible to get through to your link (the autonomiaseattle.org one)for this event to try to publicise it...

The site is down due to some drupal update thingy. Here is the facebook event - http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=160856023984419 - let me know if you can't access it...

888's picture
888
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Jul 15 2011 19:44
raw wrote:
lol! laugh out loud The two greeks in question are friends of mine from occupied london. I'll ask them the details of this little mcdonalds encounter - its sounds just like them! :-)

There were actually two sets of pairs of greeks in the NW in the last year or so, the Void Network people and the Occupied London people. Unfortunately I didn't get to talk to either for very long.

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arminius
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Jul 15 2011 22:07
888 wrote:
arminius wrote:
Actually I'm finding it impossible to get through to your link (the autonomiaseattle.org one)for this event to try to publicise it...

The site is down due to some drupal update thingy. Here is the facebook event - http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=160856023984419 - let me know if you can't access it...

Sent you a message...

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klas batalo
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Jul 15 2011 23:33
Juan Conatz wrote:
EDIT 2X: Now I remember... the Northwest anarchists and the Greek anarchists were talking about the differences between their respective anarchist movements. The Greeks are like (in thick accent): "Over there we have no have no what you call,pacifists. There's the police lines and our lines amd its understood if the police cross our lines we hit them with sticks."

i will say they were awesome, it was nice meeting them. one of them pretty sure used to be a platformist. also void chills at the AK social center, soooo scratch your head about that one...US anarchists are dumb

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klas batalo
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Jul 15 2011 23:37
arminius wrote:
Actually I'm finding it impossible to get through to your link (the autonomiaseattle.org one)for this event to try to publicise it...

nm saw 888's post

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klas batalo
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Jul 15 2011 23:39

and yeah two crews of greeks came through...one raved about most the insurrection and their awesome techno parties...

the other sorta demystified a lot of the stuff US anarchists thought about greece.

both have books on AK that i highly recommend purchasing.

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Jul 18 2011 00:49

Good luck 888. Wish I could attend. cry

action_now
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Jul 18 2011 14:29

anyone know when the updates or whatever is happening will be done and make the pugestsound anarchists site accessible?

Caiman del Barrio
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Jul 18 2011 17:09
Nate wrote:
Seems to me one good way to win a debate is to frame opponents as mistakenly and narrowmindedly either/or and yourself as an openminded right-thinking both/and, one who of course takes up positions critically rather than whole-sale.

I'm gonna allow this quote to inform any discussion i ever have with you, as I imagine most workers would upon knowing your 'technique'.

I believe the correct terminology here is "epic fail".

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Jul 25 2011 06:12

DEBATE POSTPONED!

FUCK THE POLICE!

SUPPORT 888!

Quote:
Solidarity with the Seattle Anarchists! At last one member of Seattle Solidarity Network has been arrested after police crashed an anarchist party arresting 7. More after the jump!

Tonight at about 10:45, between 30 and 40 anarchists gathered outside the downtown jail for a noise demonstration in solidarity with the six still in jail from last night's arrests. (One of the seven arrested has been released.)

The noise demonstration proceeded around the jail for about 15 minutes, banging pots and pans, banging on road signs and walls with sticks, throwing fireworks, writing anti-cop slogans on walls, and blockading the streets around the jail.

At this point, cop cars came from all directions, including undercover cars and canine units. The demonstration attempted to disperse, but many people were chased down. At least fifteen people were arrested, and five more were detained and released.

This is a call for all kinds of solidarity acts--including an appeal for funds. Those who are not currently in jail need help to bail out and provide further legal support for their friends and comrades.

Paypal: seattlelegaldefense@gmail.com

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Jul 25 2011 10:20

Fuckin Ell! Do a news article write up and get that paypal address listed front and centre!

888's picture
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Jul 26 2011 07:42

The debate was postponed due to the events described here http://libcom.org/forums/news/solidarity-seattle-anarchists-26072011

action_now
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Sep 22 2011 12:11

unfortunatly i've seen that the venue has now been evicted. is this debate gonna happen any time in the future/has actually happened?

888's picture
888
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Sep 23 2011 18:34

Hopefully it will still happen. One of the people on the insurrectionist team left Seattle though, we need a replacement.

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Feb 16 2012 13:40

The debate between various theories usually just devolves into interpersonal dynamics and conflict within groupings and rarely leads to anything constructive. There is a confusion, at least here in the south, between personalities and theories. It would seem, that for the moment, people have attempted to embody their own ideology/theory and parade themselves around different social scenes rather than attempting to implement their version of uncompromising class war.

My two cents, the dogmatist in all of us tends to take theory way to seriously when it involves justifying our own actions rather than letting the "deed" itself speak for itself. The long winded explanations and never ending justifications for something quit insignificant doesn't further the objectives of insurrectionary-anarchism, autonomism, or anarchist hippie-spectacles. We fail to see the difference between theoretical debates during struggle and have turned polemics into our struggle. Splintering does more harm then good because at the end of the day the material world and our existence as working class still exists despite our theoretical conclusions on such matters.

Just five years ago, I remember various bodies representing whatever socially hyped theories coming together in the streets despite their feelings or qualms over this or that. After the action people then retired to their various places of comfort, the bar or living room, and then discussed their theoretical differences. Just some years back I hated the persons theoretical outlook not the actual person. A criticism of theory or critical support is not the same as shit talking and ending friendships/affinity. We need to stop attempting to embody the theory we play with and proactively engage in class struggle. This is war not high school lunch or inter-office drama.

Though I must admit, it would be great to see the debate actually happen, be recorded in some fashion, and then give out as a gift to the rest of us. Video tape it, the insurrectionary ones can even where their masks at the debate to give it a feeling of self-serving militancy, no I mean legitimacy.

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Feb 26 2012 01:57

Another debate happened instead, a couple of weeks ago - http://oag.org/anti-capitalist-smackdown-a-debate-amongst-tendencies-in-the-occupy-movement/

we will soon be putting up transcripts and other related information.

According to the most reliable observers (e.g. prole.info), the team I was on (anarcho-syndicalists) won!

Black Badger
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Feb 26 2012 15:50

Pretty sure every one of the five tendencies declared themselves the winners.

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Feb 22 2013 19:11

I believe in Insurrectionism and Syndicalism.

redsdisease
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Feb 22 2013 22:44

Out of curiosity, did transcripts or audio ever come out of this?

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Tim Finnegan
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Feb 22 2013 23:54
Juan Conatz wrote:
EDIT 2X: Now I remember... the Northwest anarchists and the Greek anarchists were talking about the differences between their respective anarchist movements. The Greeks are like (in thick accent): "Over there we have no have no what you call,pacifists. There's the police lines and our lines amd its understood if the police cross our lines we hit them with sticks."

You gotta love that last part. "Hit them with sticks". No euphemisms, no poetry, no bad pseudo-Fanonian theorising about the virtues of revolutionary violence. Just "hit them" and "with sticks". Beautiful.

(edit: Oh, wait, whoops, that post is like two years old. Still a good one, mind!)

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Feb 28 2013 20:04
redsdisease wrote:
Out of curiosity, did transcripts or audio ever come out of this?

no, sorry! I did most of my section of audio transcription but there were two other sections other people were doing that didn't get finished either

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Mar 2 2013 02:00

transcripts are dope, but audio would be fine!

888's picture
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Mar 6 2013 23:52

OK here you go

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/96919068/debate_part1.mp3
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/96919068/debate_part2.mp3
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/96919068/debate_part3.mp3
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/96919068/debate_part4.mp3

Inhousejoke
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Mar 6 2013 23:56

888 I'm getting Dropbox "Error 404" at those links?

888's picture
888
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Mar 7 2013 02:17

Try again... they probably hadn't finished uploading yet.

R. Spourgitis
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Mar 7 2013 04:39

I just listened to the opening 15 mins, but this a couple of things struck me as strange. Why did it get opened up into including Nihilism, Black Orchid Collective and Communization? And why is BOC even in there as an organization and not jamesian or libertarian marxism or whatever?

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Mar 7 2013 04:51
R. Spourgitis wrote:
I just listened to the opening 15 mins, but this a couple of things struck me as strange. Why did it get opened up into including Nihilism, Black Orchid Collective and Communization? And why is BOC even in there as an organization and not jamesian or libertarian marxism or whatever?

Good question. I think because Husunzi got carried away with enthusiasm. I argued against the way the debate format ended up, because I thought it would be far too confusing with 5 different tendencies, some not different enough from each other, or too different, depending on the point of the debate. However in the end it worked reasonably well, although I think the original plan would have been clearer and contained more developed arguments from both sides.

Anyway it's quite funny how all the teams seemed to want to be friendly with the insurrectionists and attack the syndicalists especially at the beginning.