Wild-Cat Strike of Illigal Imigrants in Israel.

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fingers malone
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Jan 10 2014 22:18

Jesus, AES is talking about disputes where real people got hurt, real people got killed, and telling you that in this specific instance this act of violence set the struggle back severely, and maybe you should listen.

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Jan 10 2014 22:21

I didn't invite you to give me advice and I don't get hysterical.

Your dependence is limited to only spontaneous wildcat strikes (which rarely happen anymore) and that then somehow all of the class conscious working masses will have the necessary practical experience to expropriate all of the capitalists and the state in all its forms - and we will miraculously construct the grand worker councils just the way you dreamt.

Right.

meerov21
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Jan 10 2014 22:52
fingers malone wrote:
Jesus, AES is talking about disputes where real people got hurt, real people got killed, and telling you that in this specific instance this act of violence set the struggle back severely, and maybe you should listen.

AES is not talking. He prefer to insult opponents as a Chilli Sauce.
First of all I don't think that this kind of hysterical arguments and insults are compelling. Even if AES was shot to the head he can try to find some satisfactory arguments for discussion. I asked him a simple question: what is the way to stop strikebreakers without violanse? He did not answer and he started hysteria.
Ok. look at the things. He "was working as an apprentice toolsetter in a factory district called Wadeville, with a reputation for worker militancy and industrial action". There was a strike. Workers try to stop strike-breakers. One hero shoot the bustard. Then workers have been repressed.
If you look at the history of russian or spanish revolution you will see thousands of such situations. In generaly anarchists were the people who shoot bustards in Russia as that proletarian hero. Workers lean what is capitalism and what is the better way to fight. This is class struggle. Did not you know that?
Of cours i don't know details in THIS case. Must this worker shoot or just use cold weapons? Is that important? Even if not-violent method could work here what about another strikes and such situations? They try to stop strike-breakers!
Again. If violones was wrong what is right? Just say welcome! to strike-breakers? Or do what?

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Jan 10 2014 23:11

You said that anarcho-syndicalists of the modern IWA have no involvement or experience in violent confrontations. I told you I have such experience - I told you that I have seen a scab get shot in the head, been an eye-witness to a masscre of workers with a reputation for striking in an area where I worked and organised, been actively involved in reprisal attacks against racists. . . always responding as an anarcho-syndicalist calling for workers to make decisions and take action together using working class assemblies. Not forming counter-revolutionary elitist vanguardist groups with guns (armed struggle disconnected to workers is just another substitutionalism, like union bosses and party politicians).

Nowhere have I said that violent struggle is unnecessary. So stop lying. What I have said is that violence is not a principle, but a tactic - which is often unhelpful to workers organising as a class.

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Jan 10 2014 23:16

Regardless of whether or not it was better than the alternative, describing killing a scab as "wonderful" and something to be celebrated is really sickening.

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Jan 10 2014 23:23

He was shot by a Stalinist, who later became a car hijacker.

meerov - if workers choices just limited to strike or to be the enemy - then what happens when social partnership trade unions call workers to support racist or other reactionary strikes?

meerov21
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Jan 10 2014 23:27
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You said that anarcho-syndicalists of the modern IWA have no involvement or experience in violent confrontations. I told you I have such experience - I told you that I have seen a scab get shot in the head

Oh you have seen it ... This is what i am talking about. As i said "Even if there are few small example of such (class struggle - notice) violence of modern syndicalists it is very atypical for them". And no one argued with it, ya?
Well i hope now you can bring me apologize for the insult.
And then if you if you already calmed down i'd like to hear your answers to my questions. I don't know why, but you carefully avoid answers.
I will repit it:

Must this worker shoot or just use cold weapons? Is that important? Even if not-violent method could work here what about another strikes and such situations? They try to stop strike-breakers!
Again. If violones was wrong what is right? Just say welcome! to strike-breakers? Or do what?

meerov21
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Jan 10 2014 23:30

Regardless of whether or not it was better than the alternative, describing killing a scab as "wonderful" and something to be celebrated is really sickening.

I begin to cry about him

meerov21
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Jan 10 2014 23:34
AES wrote:
He was shot by a Stalinist, who later became a car hijacker.

meerov - if workers choices just limited to strike or to be the enemy - then what happens when social partnership trade unions call workers to support racist or other reactionary strikes?

First bring me apologize for the insult and answer my questions please. Than i will answer you

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Jan 10 2014 23:39

Workers in disputes will decide for themselves how to organise, including how to respond to scabs.

A few years ago council workers were on a work-to-rule strike (striking two out of five days each week, working only hours set on contract, no overtime) scabs were brought in. We anarchists and anarcho-syndicalists agreed to confront scabs and advocate worker control of the dispute, so we setup locations across the Edinburgh city to follow scabs and we actively blocked roads when we caught scab drivers. That was the decision of workers at their mass meeting (which I attented as a delegate and a member of Solidarity Federation IWA). There were some IWWs involved in this dispute also (you can stop crying about their no-strike contracts because that was stopped).

meerov21
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Jan 10 2014 23:46

Tyrion what about ded cops?
Do you feel sorry for them?

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Jan 10 2014 23:53

meerov,

About the original post - tell me would you actually be arguing that workers must take "violent" struggle at normal worker meetings, during a dispute? Do you realise just how out of touch your advice is?

meerov21
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Jan 11 2014 00:08
Quote:
A few years ago council workers were on a work-to-rule strike (striking two out of five days each week, working only hours set on contract, no overtime) scabs were brought in. We anarchists and anarcho-syndicalists agreed to confront scabs and advocate worker control of the dispute, so we setup locations across the Edinburgh city to follow scabs and we actively blocked roads when we caught scab drivers.

Lovely story but again this is not an answer to my questions.
Shood i repit it again and againe?
Well if in this case scabs and cops have been just pacifist you are luсky
In my country (as i think in Souf Africa) they are jeneraly not. So?...
What about THAT situation in Souf Africa?
Must this worker shoot or just use cold weapons? Is that important? Even if not-violent method could work here what about another strikes and such situations? They try to stop strike-breakers!
Again. If violones was wrong what is right? Just say welcome! to strike-breakers? Or do what?

And i am still wating for your apologize for the insult.

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Jan 11 2014 00:16

If workers decide violent methods of struggle I'm ok with that. I will argue for social revolution.

I won't apologise to you - your "feelings" don't interest me.

meerov21
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Jan 11 2014 00:20
AES wrote:
If workers decide violent methods of struggle I'm ok with that. I will argue for social revolution.

I won't apologise to you - your "feelings" don't interest me.

Understandable. Rudeness, insults and inability to respond directly to the questions. Conversation ends

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Jan 11 2014 00:22

You moan about rudeness but treat everyone like shit.

meerov21
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Jan 11 2014 00:26
Quote:
About the original post - tell me would you actually be arguing that workers must take "violent" struggle at normal worker meetings, during a dispute? Do you realise just how out of touch your advice is?

If workers decide violent methods of struggle I'm ok with that. I will argue for social revolution.

A set of contradictory statements and a lack of ability to respond directly to the questions

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Jan 11 2014 00:38

If I believed that violence is a revolutionary principle, then maybe there would be a contradiction, but I don't believe that it's a principle it's just a tactic which happens in struggles (old and new). You must obviously know that there is considerable variety of tactics made by workers in dispute. If it was up to you it seems that kneecapping would always be on the agenda to deal with everything.

Maybe you can get a plant or a pet, or maybe someday even be a parent - so that like the rest of us in the real world, you can have a sober understanding of worrying about having something to lose.

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Jan 11 2014 02:03
meerov21 wrote:
Tyrion what about ded cops?
Do you feel sorry for them?

Is this a serious post? I don't generally make a practice of mourning cops if they're killed trying to repress the working class. However, unlike you (and perhaps this is unsurprising given that you've apparently never experienced anything like what AES had described), I also don't delight in people being killed. What a load of juvenile nonsense.

meerov21
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Jan 11 2014 04:32

P.S.

I've never ever thought that sentence "Death of strikebreaker is a cause for celebration". can cause a storm of negative emotions... at the libertarian socialsit forum!

I don't want to say that the strike-breakers must inevitably killed. In some situations this is not necessary. And of course, few can do it. I am absolutly not sure about myself unfortunately. I am afraid i can't.

May be this act was not coordinated with other workers and they were not ready to it. From another side russian anarchist in the begining of 20th century did something like that then they kill boss o scab for the "propaganda of action". And that was successfull sometimes.

As for all workers in that Sauf African factory... did they want to resist scabs in Sauf Africa by methods of Mahatma Gandy... very strange and almouste unbelievable... but who knows? I am afraid we will not know...

What i like to know what SA workers think about this guy. Are they hate him as this "libertarians"...I am afraid we will not know.

I also don't think that all kinds of violence are good. Blow up bombs in the night or kill politicians pretty stupid.

But even if that act was a political mistake i would be honored shake the hend of worker who can do it then to "lebertarians" who cry about ded scabs.

meerov21
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Jan 11 2014 04:14

you've apparently never experienced anything like what AES had described

You mean i never watching like him "worker shot a scab"? You right. So what?

Probably he realy has some problems and as i see it is not possible to talk with him.
At list i did not understand who was killing whom after all. His speech is rambling.
Anyway he said:

I was cycling home and I was in the immediate area at the time of the attack. I saw the flashes of gunshots as 19 people were shot dead and the other 22 had gunshot or debris injuries, some were blown through shop windows or fell along the pavements in the retail centre waiting for transport, most victims were shot in parked minibuses on their way home, most were men and there were some women. The cops were cracking jokes. I stood in the centre of it all frozen and traumatised, I felt invisible, I was still a child. Police were there at the time of the shootings, whether they coordinated the assualt we will never know.

So this person was in the territory and he was "felt invisible.. was still a child"
If this happen with me it will be the same or even wors.
But is this example for imitation?

meerov21
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Jan 11 2014 04:50

I also don't delight in people being killed.

I am not talking about people i am talking about cops
In my country they rape people by empty wine-bottles

What a load of juvenile nonsense.

Realy? So why adult people is some areas from Usbekistan to India celabrating then cops are ded? I met russians from Uzbekistan who hate islamists. But even some of them celebrate the death of the cops from the hands of Islamists in they country.
Don't tell me i recomend sombody to kill cops. I don't. But don't you think you know everything about this world? Just think what are you talking about than you call them "people"

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Jan 11 2014 05:03

This is a truly morbid display of dehumanization and the glorification of killing.

meerov21
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Jan 11 2014 05:10


This is a truly morbid display of dehumanization and the glorification of killing.

I hope you don't like glorification of Nestor Machno and Machnovshina. They killed people you know. Glorification of Machnovshina is glorification of killing

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Jan 11 2014 05:15

I'm unsure why you're having such difficulty seeing any distinction between viewing deadly force as something that is ugly but sometimes necessary to defend the well-being of the proletariat and glorifying that killing as wonderful and worth partying over.

meerov21
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Jan 11 2014 05:20

Do you think Machnovshina rebels did not celebrate victories?

meerov21
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Jan 11 2014 15:16

Someone condemns this violent behavior of working class who is probably killing people (violens even without decision of the workers general assembly) ?
http://www.libcom.org/news/clashes-samsung-factory-vietnam-09012014

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Jan 13 2014 01:46

Let's please avoid jokes and sarcasm on this thread and the other one connected to this discussion.

Concerning historical periods of high intensity class war (Paris 1871, Russia/Ukraine 1917-1921, Spain 1931-36, 1939-1965; Bulgaria 1944, etc) the revolutionary workers (especially the anarchists and anarcho-syndicalists) have engaged in struggle including violent acts of class warfare, but I am not aware of violence itself being "glorified" as you say. Even the combative students/workers of Paris '68 made it clear that they provoke the violence of capitalism and the state.

Nowhere have I said that violent struggle is unnecessary. So stop lying meerov. What I have said is that violence is not a principle, it is a tactic. If workers decide violent methods of struggle I'm ok with that. I will argue for social revolution.

meerov/maggid, you have not answered my earlier question -

What about racist and reactionary strikes?

Also, what about the violence of "popular uprisings" that turn into pogroms which were probably never "popular" violence anyway?

Or xenophobic violent attacks on immigrant workers and unwaged such as those which took place in South Africa a few years ago?

Your attempt to promote "propaganda by the deed" (not supported and recognised by the vast majority of anarchists since the 1890s) is to try make violence a principle and this attempt to attach violence to revolutionary struggle is counter-revolutionary.

teh
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Jan 12 2014 22:09

On Machnovshina:

Tyrion wrote:
I'm unsure why you're having such difficulty seeing any distinction between viewing deadly force as something that is ugly but sometimes necessary to defend the well-being of the proletariat and glorifying that killing as wonderful and worth partying over.

So one should murder people (as a sometimes necessity) but not fell good about it. Sounds like the Shooting and Crying agit-prop of every global military.

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Jan 12 2014 23:30

The Makhnovchina were a movement in the Ukraine that included various tendencies. They together with many other workers, mostly peasants defend themselves and advanced their own interests by means of armed defence against several hostile armies from all sides including Austro-hungarian army, White army, and the Red army (on a few occasions when they were considered expendible after helping the Red army defeat the White army/Denekinists...)

teh, if you want to argue that capitalism and the state will allow their own abolition without social revolution (that includes violent struggle) then start a new thread.