Socialist Working Muslims and Other Religious People

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ResistanceMP3s
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Feb 9 2007 10:48
Socialist Working Muslims and Other Religious People

I know many of you have been interested in this topic. Seeing some kind of contradiction in Socialists working with people who may hold some non-egalitarian views. I think this is particularly good at addressing the points raised (though there are other MP3s there too).

http://mp3.lpi.org.uk/resistancemp/m2006home.htm
Do Socialists Have To Be Atheists? DSHTBA Disc Two Alex Callinicos, 2006.

If you are going to listen, I wouldn't miss out the second MP3 which includes contributions from the floor.

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Demogorgon303
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Feb 9 2007 11:29

Isn't Callinicos SWP?

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Devrim
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Feb 9 2007 11:35
Demogorgon303 wrote:
Isn't Callinicos SWP?

Yes, the speeches are from their 'Marxism' conference. Actually I tried to open it, but it was taking so long, I gave up.
Devrim

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Feb 9 2007 17:01

strange, it just started for me in nine seconds.

Lenin "Revolutionaries Have To Meet in Pubs", is that his lesser-known thesis?grin

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Feb 10 2007 02:32

Being a Christian I do agree with some of what he's saying in regards to his arguement against religion being the opium of the people, but rather something to help you to aspire to in the world you live in. Rather than just relying on a better one when you die.
But I don't agree with SWP and Respect on how they build so many bridges with some really dodgy Islamic groups with really shady views and ideas; all in the name of anti-imperialism. And I would say the same if they were alligning themselves with crazy Christian groups.
So being an anarchist also, I don't agree with organised religion, but still happily and openily celebrate my love for a bit of the Jesus without agreeing to the authority (in vague terms) of the Church.
In the same way I respect anyone who does that to whatever religious icon(s), regardless of what faith they subscribe to.
I think that the SWP have taken this idea to an extreme though, as they'd allign themselves to anyone given half the chance.

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Feb 10 2007 09:59
wheresmyshoes wrote:
I think that the SWP have taken this idea to an extreme though, as they'd allign themselves to anyone given half the chance.

serbian fascists when Kosovo was bombed, irrc, fight the empire! roll eyes

Guilt
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Feb 10 2007 10:21

his arguement against religion being the opium of the people, but rather something to help you to aspire to in the world you live in.

The Spanish anarchists didn't loot and demolish churches on account of the church's role in giving people something to aspire to.

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Feb 11 2007 14:23
Joseph K. wrote:
wheresmyshoes wrote:
I think that the SWP have taken this idea to an extreme though, as they'd allign themselves to anyone given half the chance.

serbian fascists when Kosovo was bombed, irrc, fight the empire! roll eyes

Now THAT'S good politics.

Guilt wrote:
his arguement against religion being the opium of the people, but rather something to help you to aspire to in the world you live in.

The Spanish anarchists didn't loot and demolish churches on account of the church's role in giving people something to aspire to.

As I said I'm not siding with the Church and organised religion. Spirituality and agreeing with a hierarchical systems are two very different things. So Spanish anarchists looting and demolishing oppressive and facist places have nothing to do with what I just said.
What exactly was your point?

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Feb 11 2007 16:56

Hi

Quote:
Spirituality and agreeing with a hierarchical systems are two very different things.

Yeah. I mean it’s not as if those magical beings form an omnipresent authority or anything.

Love

LR

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Feb 11 2007 17:20
Lazy Riser wrote:
Hi

Quote:
Spirituality and agreeing with a hierarchical systems are two very different things.

Yeah. I mean it’s not as if those magical beings form an omnipresent authority or anything.

Love

LR

If I lived in a tree and sang to the grass no one would seem to care, even though both are to do with spiriuality. Yet it's somehow different to follow Jesus' teachings?

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Feb 11 2007 17:21
Lazy Riser wrote:
Yeah. I mean it’s not as if those magical beings form an omnipresent authority or anything.

yeah but given as the supreme authority is, er ... elsewhere and rather fond of hands off management, there's no necessary earthly hierarchy.

knightrose
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Feb 11 2007 18:47

Which teachings? Ones like this?

raw
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Feb 11 2007 19:23
knightrose wrote:
Which teachings? Ones like this?

By stoning they don't mean "supply him with nice sexy drugs"? I doubt it.

God doesn't exist - your not 12 years old carrying a teddy bear so make the further step to realise that we live in a great big pile of shit and we have only ourselves to sort this mess out - no god, no nice bearded men (apart from me of course), no talking bushes and other miracles.

Sorry, don't usual say this 'cos I've met a few anarcho-christian types and have nothing against them. excuse my rudeness

raw

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Feb 11 2007 20:01
knightrose wrote:
Which teachings? Ones like this?

Shoes said jesus' teachings, deuteronomy's old testament. i'm as atheist as the next anarcho, but jesus was more of a hippy than a (literal) disobedient-stoner. as deuteronomy is part of the Torah, you can however stick it to the jooooooos, if you're so inclined wink

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Feb 11 2007 21:55
wheresmyshoes wrote:
If I lived in a tree and sang to the grass no one would seem to care, even though both are to do with spiriuality. Yet it's somehow different to follow Jesus' teachings?

For some odd reason, I think a lot of posters on this forum would give you a hard time for living in a tree and singing to the grass as well...

knightrose
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Feb 11 2007 22:36

I know, I know. I'm just a total bastard when it comes to the old god bothering stuff.

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Feb 11 2007 23:27

Hi

Quote:
If I lived in a tree and sang to the grass no one would seem to care, even though both are to do with spiriuality. Yet it's somehow different to follow Jesus' teachings?

Roughly equivalent I’d imagine. The spiritualists can take extra comfort in the fact they have no monopoly on irrational belief systems.

If there is a difference, it lies in the fact that the grass is not Lord, whereas, and correct me if I’m wrong, Jesus is.

Love

LR

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Feb 12 2007 01:06
raw wrote:
knightrose wrote:
Which teachings? Ones like this?

By stoning they don't mean "supply him with nice sexy drugs"? I doubt it.

God doesn't exist - your not 12 years old carrying a teddy bear so make the further step to realise that we live in a great big pile of shit and we have only ourselves to sort this mess out - no god, no nice bearded men (apart from me of course), no talking bushes and other miracles.

Sorry, don't usual say this 'cos I've met a few anarcho-christian types and have nothing against them. excuse my rudeness

raw

I only follow the teachings of Jesus and what he taught and said when he was out and about. I don't follow words written by men, as they are flawable and Jesus is not.
I don't care if that sounds contridictry, that's how I roll. God does exist. I'm not 12 and the age of a person has nothing to do with anything, as I became a Christian when I was 16; 2 years after I became an anarcho.

Joseph K. wrote:
Lazy Riser wrote:
Yeah. I mean it’s not as if those magical beings form an omnipresent authority or anything.

yeah but given as the supreme authority is, er ... elsewhere and rather fond of hands off management, there's no necessary earthly hierarchy.

Exactly. I don't see the problem with it, if I'm not harming anyone, forcing my views or beliving in a God that hates and wants to start wars. I believe in what Jesus taught and that's about it, I'm not a nutter or a crazy so I don't see the big deal.
If you don't agree with my views then that's fine, I'm not forcing it on anyone so I expect the same respect back.

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Feb 12 2007 01:11
Felix Frost wrote:
wheresmyshoes wrote:
If I lived in a tree and sang to the grass no one would seem to care, even though both are to do with spiriuality. Yet it's somehow different to follow Jesus' teachings?

For some odd reason, I think a lot of posters on this forum would give you a hard time for living in a tree and singing to the grass as well...

Haha, I don't know about that. We used to have some right crusties back in the day.

petey
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Feb 12 2007 01:16
wheresmyshoes wrote:
I became a Christian when I was 16; 2 years after I became an anarcho.

but if "render unto caesar" tolerates political hierarchy (i'm not saying endorses it, though paul would enorse it), how do you square that with being anarcho?

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Feb 12 2007 01:47
revol68 wrote:

and the reason you believe this is because?

Because I do.

revol68 wrote:
I'm afraid that outside of the special theological special rational thought exclusion zone belief in undocumented supernatural bodies is generally seen as somewhat crazy.

No.

revol68 wrote:
Doesn't work like that, I'm not harming anyone by believing that elephants can fly but no one should do anything else than disrespect such idiocy.

And how can you be an anarchist and follow the teachings of anyone because of some divine status?

Fuck how can someone be soo critical of society and yet not question something soo blatantly ludricous as god and his hippy wee son Jesus?

I'm firm and happy in my beliefs with both anarchism and Christianity.
I've told you my stand-points and have respected you all don't agree with my views. That's fine. But your rudeness about what I believe will only get us into lame internet fights.

Dundee_United
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Feb 12 2007 01:48

If God exists then there is something which hierarchically is superior to humanity. There is not two ways about it. If God exists, as Bakunin points out, humans are slaves. I refuse to be a slave, therefore I refuse to believe in God.

You cannot reconcile communism, where we live in a free society devoid of private property and non-specific hierarchical dominance with the existence of the big pink elephant that shat out the universe and now lords it over everyone. Communism is impossible if God exists, therefore why have any faith at all in anarchism? Surely if you accept the existence of God you should pursue personal hierarchical gain above all else; if nothing else purely to get closer to God.

If God exists you're a slave. Get down and bow.

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Feb 12 2007 01:55
Dundee_United wrote:
If God exists then there is something which hierarchically is superior to humanity. There is not two ways about it. If God exists, as Bakunin points out, humans are slaves. I refuse to be a slave, therefore I refuse to believe in God.

You cannot reconcile communism, where we live in a free society devoid of private property and non-specific hierarchical dominance with the existence of the big pink elephant that shat out the universe and now lords it over everyone. Communism is impossible if God exists, therefore why have any faith at all in anarchism? Surely if you accept the existence of God you should pursue personal hierarchical gain above all else; if nothing else purely to get closer to God.

If God exists you're a slave. Get down and bow.

No, not all. You're missing the whole point.
If I belief in a God that is good and caring, and wants to achieve nothing but happiness for people and the planet It created. I see nothing wrong with that at all.
I'm an anarchist because I believe in the princiables that all humans are equal and should treat one other with that same idea.
It's quite easy to live as a Christian and an anarcho. This is how I do it; I wake up and get out of bed and fuck me, somehow it works.

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Feb 12 2007 02:00
revol68 wrote:
ah right so you JUST believe it and somehow i'm suppoused to respect it and if I continue to enquire as to why you believe ancient fairy tales you'll throw your rattle out of the pram?

Can I just ask why you choose to chill with JC over Muhammed, or why you don't hang with the hindu's? I mean what made you think christianity was a better choice than those other ones?

No Revol, I'm not going to throw my rattle out of the pram.

I chose Christianity because I find religion very interesting and I researched about a lot of the different religions and I found Christianity the most appealing.

My beliefs are not harmful or oppressive to anyone, and being an anarchist and not a cultural Stalinist, I don't see why you can't just respect this and leave it?

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Feb 12 2007 02:02
revol68 wrote:
you know what's even easier being an anarcho and not believing in god, I wake up and get of bed and somehow i don't need to indulge childish fantasies about a benevolent overlord and his do gooding hippy son.

Okay.

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Feb 12 2007 02:12
revol68 wrote:
wheresmyshoes wrote:
revol68 wrote:
ah right so you JUST believe it and somehow i'm suppoused to respect it and if I continue to enquire as to why you believe ancient fairy tales you'll throw your rattle out of the pram?

Can I just ask why you choose to chill with JC over Muhammed, or why you don't hang with the hindu's? I mean what made you think christianity was a better choice than those other ones?

No Revol, I'm not going to throw my rattle of the pram.

I chose Christianity because I find religion very interesting and I researched about a lot of the different religions and I found Christianity the most appealing.

My beliefs are not harmful or oppressive to anyone, and being an anarchist and not a cultural Stalinist, I don't see why you can't just respect this and leave it?

your particular beliefs might not be harmful but i'm afraid the manner in which you just pick something to believe in is irrational and knee jerk and not really becoming of someone of a critical disposition. If you can quite easily accept nonsense without any evidence, proof or reason it isn't a healthy state of affairs.

You'd also have to very selective in your Christianity too, afterall why is it you think most christians are homophobic, sexist and generally conservative?

It's not knee-jerk at all. I found myself agreeing with a lot of what I found out and thus became a Christian, whoa crazy times!
Of course I'm very selective, but I've already said this quite a few times. I only follow the teachings of what Jesus taught when He came to earth. And since he was neither sexist, homophobic or oppressive, it works just fine for me.

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Feb 12 2007 02:13
revol68 wrote:
wheresmyshoes wrote:
revol68 wrote:
you know what's even easier being an anarcho and not believing in god, I wake up and get of bed and somehow i don't need to indulge childish fantasies about a benevolent overlord and his do gooding hippy son.

Okay.

no you just can't say okay, our two views cannot mutually respect each other. I don't believe in a supernatural entity you worship, by me not believing i'm also saying you are being a fool by believing, and likewise when you hold there is a god then this means i'm wrong, it can't be both at the same time!

But you see, I don't care if you agree with me or not or how you go about your day. Believing in God, or not.
So, okay.

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Feb 12 2007 02:21
revol68 wrote:
right, but just cos you agree with alot of some guys teachings (again it'd be pretty selective as i'm certain there are sexist and homophobic teachings) why does it follow that the person is the son of god? I mean I agree with alot of things ole karl Marx wrote but if Engels started claiming he was Hegels ideal made concrete i'd be inclined to raise an eyebrow and a scoff.

He doesn't actually. You can read through the whole Bible and not find a single thing. Never does Jesus HIMSELF say anything homophobic, and since I only follow His teachings. This again, works out quite nicely for me.
I believe He was the son of God because I just do and think it's true.
And that's about it.

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Feb 12 2007 02:26
revol68 wrote:
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I believe He was the son of God because I just do and think it's true.
And that's about it.

don't you think that's a cretinous way to argue or reason?

I mean what makes that any different than saying you think Kings are divinely appointed?

No, I don't think it is. As it's my opinion and point of view and am quite happy to follow it, regardless of your continued rudeness (which I still don't understand).

It makes a lot of difference, because someone being born into the right blood is completely different.

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Feb 12 2007 02:30
revol68 wrote:
well surely if you believe that jesus is the son of god, who died for our sins and through his love we are saved perhaps you should care afterall if i'm not to perish, if i am to be redeemed then i must accept him into my life, no?

Nope. As I'm a human being and not Jesus, so I don't have endless love for everyone. What you do with your life is entirely up to you, not me.
Of course I'd prefer it if you had the same beliefs as me and accepted Jesus. But then again I'd prefer it if everyone agreed with anarchism too.

Dundee_United
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Feb 12 2007 02:32

If God exists then you condemn me to slavery. It doesn't matter if your boss is nice, they're still your boss. It doesn't matter if your God is nice, they're still your creator. If God exists humans are mere playthings of a divine being. I refuse to be a slave. This is not a question of rationality, it a question of freedom. If God exists we're all slaves.