Riots break out in Paris suburbs. Death of two teens killed, triggers violence.

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Inigo Montoya
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Nov 26 2007 20:54
Riots break out in Paris suburbs. Death of two teens killed, triggers violence.

Clashes broke out on Sunday night after two teenagers - aged 15 and 16 - were killed when the motorcycle they were driving collided with a police car.

The police car was on a routine patrol and the teenagers were not being chased by police at the time of the accident, police said. The collision wrecked the front of the car and smashed the windscreen.

Witnesses have accused the police of leaving the scene and of preventing local people from trying to help the youngsters as they lay in the road.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7112497.stm

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Shorty
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Nov 27 2007 13:57

Second night of rioting -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7114175.stm

Mentions bullet wounds. eek

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Inigo Montoya
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Nov 27 2007 18:53

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=search_videos&search_query=paris%20riots&search_sort=video_date_uploaded&search_category=0&search=Search&v=&uploaded=

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Tacks
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Nov 28 2007 00:24

does anyone take heart in any of this?

I really don't tbh.

Its just shit for everybody.

yoshomon
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Nov 28 2007 00:34

I take heart in it. How can you see young people torching police cars and stations and not take heart?

ronan
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Nov 28 2007 00:37

cos they're probably doing the same thing to ambulances and fire trucks ffs.

Zazaban
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Nov 28 2007 00:52

France really seems to be being torn apart.

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jef costello
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Nov 28 2007 01:21

It really isn't.

I'm quite happy to see reports that 80 police are in hospital (mostly CRS so basically complete arseholes) but this isn't going to do anyone any good. I'll bet the police station gets rebuilt before the library and the schools that burn down. It'll be another excuse to demonise and marginalise arabs.

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Tacks
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Nov 28 2007 01:36
yoshomon wrote:
I take heart in it. How can you see young people torching police cars and stations and not take heart?
jef costello wrote:
It really isn't.

I'm quite happy to see reports that 80 police are in hospital (mostly CRS so basically complete arseholes) but this isn't going to do anyone any good. I'll bet the police station gets rebuilt before the library and the schools that burn down. It'll be another excuse to demonise and marginalise arabs.

basically.

I wish i could say 'there is never a wrong reason to attack the police' but there are.

Fucksache
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Nov 28 2007 10:29

What a pile of leftist wank.

I'm glad you lot weren't around in the 80's. You'd have been calling for the hanging of Winston Silcot.

You lot have got a formula for what struggle looks like, a mythical impression of 1970's organised working class struggle. If something happens that doesn't fit that formula then it's to be dismissed. That's what being a leftie is all about.

Look the world is complicated, the class is varied and changing, struggle is messy and is always going to come in shapes you might not recognise.

There’s all sorts of struggle going on in France at the moment, they may not be consciously linked up but they can still resonate together and defeat a common enemy.

Mike Harman
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Nov 28 2007 10:40
Fucksache wrote:
There’s all sorts of struggle going on in France at the moment, they may not be consciously linked up but they can still resonate together and defeat a common enemy.

There were a few attempts on the parts of either the Banlieues or the students to make links, Rennes was perhaps the best example. However there were also incidences of mass organised muggings around the same time.

You have to look at what's actually happening, not get all over excited whenever someone shoves some riot porn in your face. I don't see anyone on this thread condemning the rioters, just not getting very enthusiastic about it.

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little_brother
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Nov 28 2007 12:21

Disgraceful. This sort of thing wouldn't be happening if these ne'erdowells were being made to stay in school/training/voluntary work until 18. That Sarkozy has no idea how to run a country. Obviously a head-to-head with Ed Balls is needed. wink

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Nov 28 2007 12:27
Quote:
Look the world is complicated, the class is varied and changing, struggle is messy and is always going to come in shapes you might not recognise.

While I agree with this, what we're seeing in France now comes in a shape I (and others) do recognize.

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Nov 28 2007 12:50

The Outsiders: John Lichfield in the Banlieues - one year on
It began with the deaths of two youths fleeing the police. Soon, Paris's suburbs were engulfed by riots and over the next three weeks violence spread to every major town and city across France. One year on, John Lichfield returns to the benighted banlieue where the trouble first erupted to find out what - if anything - has changed
Published: 26 October 2006
http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article1930641.ece

Article begins, "Nothing has changed. Nothing has changed. Nothing has changed."

It's a mainstream press article, but contains views of rioters ... something sorely absent in these kinds of threads. Who will say this is not class warfare?

Mike Harman
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Nov 28 2007 13:01
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Who will say this is not class warfare?

Who has said that?

Here's the original discussion from July last year although there were others later on. I don't think anyone condemned the rioters, but people were rightly concerned that randomly targeting buses and nurseries wasn't a very effective tactic.

Battlescarred
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Nov 28 2007 13:15

Yes. Tcchh! I remember the Poll Tax Riot. Just another excuse to demonise and attack Poll Tax resisters. Shocking! Should never have happened!

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Nov 28 2007 13:26
little_brother wrote:
It's a mainstream press article, but contains views of rioters ... something sorely absent in these kinds of threads. Who will say this is not class warfare?

Torching schools and libraries is not "class warfare", it's setting things on fire. There is a difference.

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Tacks
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Nov 28 2007 14:07
Mike Harman wrote:
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Who will say this is not class warfare?

Who has said that?

well....

Its class warfare as in the two opponents are representative of the opposing classes and the banliue kids are motivated by class inequality, but is it class warfare in the sense of the working class coming into conflict with the rulingm class whilst trying to take control of its affairs (communities/workplaces etc)?

Its definitely a sign of social warfare and further evidence of how fucked the system is, but as i said i don't really take heart in it. They don't seem to have support in their actions and many of their actions are anti-social. I think when leftist cheerlead this sort of stuff its hilarious; they have absolutely no suggestions or ideas of how to help or what they can do for the rioters, so they write it up in vague terms and claim it for the class. Like the trots on bradford. If this is class struggle, i ask then, what are we going to do to support it?

Charly, who is condemning rioters? How is this the poll tax? Do you even know who you are discussing with? We are anarchists, you can safely assume we aren't calling for law and order to restrain the yobs.

Mike Harman
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Nov 28 2007 14:16
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If this is class struggle, i ask then, what are we going to do to support it?

I don't think there's much we can do from here regardless of what it is. Hopefully our already overstretched and underpaid Paris correspondent can write something up about it though wink

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Nov 28 2007 14:22

sorry catch, that was meant as a rhetorical question.

read: this is not a class struggle, just a class based issue.

thats pretty much my whole post in a sentence.

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jef costello
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Nov 28 2007 14:23

Poll tax riots, from what I know were a far more direct confrontation and far less about people destroying their own neighbourhoods. This is anti-police feeling and there is very little more to it in many cases, it's not easy to join up struggles and as catch has pointed out. I'm not saying people should fight the police when necessary, but dealing with them as part of a struggle is very different to what is going on. It's not as if they are even trying to force police out of their neighbourhoods (which I might offer limited support to) they are just fighting them.

I'm from Tottenham fucksache so I'd never have risked calling for hanging Winston Silcott, I've no idea if he's guilty, although I doubt it, but there is so much bullshit leftist propaganda on one side and so many police lies on the other that it is impossible to tell what is true.

This case looks to be fairly open and shut and although I don't trust the police here an inch I don't believe for a second that this was done deliberately.

The result of these riots will be more cuts in services for people whore already getting the least, furthermore it helps to polarise society in a negative way. You 'd be shocked how many seemingly normal french people react if you mention Arabs.

Not every struggle is organised and not every action is going to be entirely positive but it is hard to look on this as anything but desperation. The riots last year achieved nothing, they destroyed infrastructure in their own comunities, most of which has still not been replaced and the main reason the riots stopped was because towards the end hundreds were beig arrested each night. The talk of investment is lies, there are few jobs in the banlieue and the transport links to get you out of there are terrible.

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jef costello
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Nov 28 2007 14:25
Mike Harman wrote:
Hopefully our already overstretched and underpaid Paris correspondent can write something up about it though ;)

It's like you read my mind. I was going to do a one year on type piece, I suppose this cold be combined with that, will take a while though and these riots are unlkely to last as long.
It's not easy to get info, even indymedia they admit that they have no first hand knowledge (doesn't stop them cheerleading the riots though)

Incidentally there are three news articles waiting for moderation, two from me wink
plus the two library things, could you post urls when they're approved? maybe in the strike wave thread rather than here.

Mike Harman
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Nov 28 2007 14:29

Jef - you can post urls before stuff gets approved - it'll just have a "this post is in moderation warning" - anyway I just did the AG report and fixed the photos (which wasn't your fault, too many photos - will think of a way 'round that).

yoshomon
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Nov 28 2007 14:31

Young people torching schools makes a lot of sense to me. Libraries not as much, but rioting looks a lot more fun than studying or going to work!

One interesting difference between these riots and those in 2005 is the widespread use of firearms against police. Also, didn't funding to these neighborhoods increase following the last set of rioting? Why wouldn't this happen again? Of course, "reform is only repression continued by other means"...

Battlescarred
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Nov 28 2007 15:00

Try as I might, I could find none of the prissiness that seems to characterise SOME British anarchists in articles written by French comrades either in Federation Anarchiste, Alternative Libertaire OCL etc either about now or about 2005

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jef costello
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Nov 28 2007 15:04

There is no widespread use of firearms there are reports that a couple of officers were hit with shotgun pellets the same claim was made at Broadwater farm.
I don't think it's prissiness to assume that burning down the place where you live and getting arrested is a good thing.

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little_brother
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Nov 28 2007 15:12

I don't see the reason to be making these distinctions, class-based vs. class warfare, schools vs. libraries. From the 2006 newspaper article I posted:

Quote:
"They were saying, 'You, you France, you the government, you people in authority, you say that we have a chance but then you give us none. We're going to smash up or burn the things that seem to represent something positive, but are really a lie. We are going to burn the buses that are supposed to take us to jobs we don't have.' In that sense, these were not riots. They were a revolt."

Revolt is class warfare. It doesn't have to be directed at anything forward-looking. In any case much of the fighting with police seems to have been in direct response to continual police abuses and deaths of young residents (this being the key event which sparked 2005 riots as well). Maybe afterwards you can ask the question, as Class War newspaper did in 1980s about the inner city riots, "What do we do when the cops fuck off". Same article criticised anti-social acts, and if you have even a little credibility in those areas where the rioting is happening you can ask those questions and make those statements. Don't really see much is to be achieved by criticising from the sidelines or even by being less than enthusiastic about something we know next to nothing about apart from BBC news clips.

Battlescarred
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Nov 28 2007 15:14

Who's doing the arresting? Les flics.
Are you purblind? Can't you see that this latest wave of unrest is the result of simmering anger because of social conditions, flicage, and racism and poverty?
You should have turned up on the barricades in 68 and told them that about getting arrested

Mike Harman
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Nov 28 2007 15:15

Well here's a measured article by Mouvement Communiste: http://www.prol-position.net/nl/2006/05/riots to give an example of actual analysis from the other side of the channel - you can say if you think it's 'prissy' or not. Or this more optimistic (but not uncritical) one by Henri Simon

Perhaps you'd like to post up some FA or AL articles so we can decide if they're prissy, leftist cheerleading, or somewhere in between as well?

futility index
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Nov 28 2007 15:26
Quote:
Its class warfare as in the two opponents are representative of the opposing classes and the banliue kids are motivated by class inequality, but is it class warfare in the sense of the working class coming into conflict with the rulingm class whilst trying to take control of its affairs (communities/workplaces etc)?

Getting a hated enemy out of your neigbourhood seems like a starting point to me. I agree with Fucksache, we need to abandon preconceived ideas about how things should happen or in what order. Couldnt anarchists in france talk to the people involved in the riot and try and work with them to build some kind of organisation off the back of this outburst of rage?

Mike Harman
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Nov 28 2007 15:28
little_brother wrote:
I don't see the reason to be making these distinctions, class-based vs. class warfare, schools vs. libraries. From the 2006 newspaper article I posted:
Quote:
"They were saying, 'You, you France, you the government, you people in authority, you say that we have a chance but then you give us none. We're going to smash up or burn the things that seem to represent something positive, but are really a lie. We are going to burn the buses that are supposed to take us to jobs we don't have.' In that sense, these were not riots. They were a revolt."

I've personally not made those distinctions on this thread. Nor do I have the slighest qualms about torching a bus (or train or whatever) - it's the fact people were still inside it that I take issue with. It's not like it was a limousine carrying Sarkozy or something, iirc it was a young woman from the suburbs.

Quote:
Revolt is class warfare. It doesn't have to be directed at anything forward-looking.

But when it lacks that, it can be very limited no? Allow for intra-class divisions to be manipulated further? Allow those sections of the class in revolt to be easily isolated and suppressed?

Quote:
Same article criticised anti-social acts, and if you have even a little credibility in those areas were the rioting is happening you can ask those questions and make those statements.

Well since no-one on here has any credibility in the French banlieues, maybe we shouldn't talk about this at all. Positively or negatively! In future I'll limit all of my discussion to only areas where I have some street cred with da yoof, avoid circulating information about strikes I'm not an active participant in, shut down all of my critical faculties and analysis. Just in case a French teenager logs on here and is persuaded not to turn a car over by my mild pessimism. ffs.

Also are you claiming that Class War had 'credibility' in all the '80s riot hotspots?

Quote:
Don't really see much is to be achieved by criticising from the sidelines

Nor mindless cheerleading from the sidelines. So we can either try to understand these events, discuss their contradictory aspects, their relationship to the university and school student strikes (and lack of it), compare the trajectory to two years ago, all these other potentially productive activities. Or we can sit on the side-lines sniping at people for sitting on the sidelines and sniping.