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Over 10 people killed after Israel storms aid ship

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Hughes's picture
Hughes
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Jun 8 2010 01:27

It sounded more anti-Israel than anti-Jewish to me. But what do I know.

EDIT: It could just be that I'm in the midst of reading Norman Finkelstein.

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Jun 8 2010 01:30
Hughes wrote:
Norman Finkelstein

This is a fabulous documentary, by the way, wherever you stand on the Israel/Palestine debate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hO_0byNexA

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jef costello
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Jun 8 2010 09:02

Hughes, if you want to add something to a post you can use the edit button rather than making a new post quoting yourself immediately afterwards, it's annoying.

edit: you can put in edits like this if you want so people know that you've edited them.

baboon
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Jun 8 2010 13:42

It turns out that the Turkish IHH (the Foundation for Human Rights and Freedom and Humanitarian Relief) was, according to the Turkish ambassador in London, involved in sending "aid" to Haiti some months ago.
You will remember the response of the US to this influx of aid under the flags of different national capitals and NGO's, from the Obama administration: Special Ops, the CIA, Blackwater and 20,000 pairs of US army boots trampling all over the misery of the Haitian masses. That was a statement from the administration that they would tolerate not the slightest interference in their own back-yard.
US general Colin Powell had already said that American NG0's were "force-multipliers for the US government". By implication, the American bourgeoisie would also understand that NG0's and "aid" suppliers generally were part of the armoury of other powers.
If one looks at British "aid" to Palestine generally then one can see that this is a weapon for building up British influence in the region. Even in the West Bank the poor and deprived have been largely ignored with the bulk of the "aid" going to supply, train and equip the repressive forces of Fatah.

On another level, given the difficulties of US imperialism at the moment regarding Israel, Turkey and being more widely stretched generally, one could well imagine the foreign ministries of Iran (and possibly North Korea) contemplating a "move". It's possible, but whatever, the situation will become more volatile.

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Jun 8 2010 17:40
Hughes wrote:
It sounded more anti-Israel than anti-Jewish to me. But what do I know.

EDIT: It could just be that I'm in the midst of reading Norman Finkelstein.

She was telling all the Jews to go back to Poland and Germany. To quote Jon Stewart, I wonder why they left there in the first place? Though the bigger issue is that a significant portion of Israeli Jews were born in Israel, and even a lot of those who don't come from other Middle Eastern countries, Russia, Ethiopia, etc.

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Jun 8 2010 19:02
Tojiah wrote:
Hughes wrote:
It sounded more anti-Israel than anti-Jewish to me. But what do I know.

EDIT: It could just be that I'm in the midst of reading Norman Finkelstein.

She was telling all the Jews to go back to Poland and Germany. To quote Jon Stewart, I wonder why they left there in the first place? Though the bigger issue is that a significant portion of Israeli Jews were born in Israel, and even a lot of those who don't come from other Middle Eastern countries, Russia, Ethiopia, etc.

Yeah, you're right on all counts. I do think some of the eagerness to jump on her for anti-semitism though related to the mainstream media's cheerleading of Israel.

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Jun 8 2010 19:38
Hughes wrote:
Tojiah wrote:
Hughes wrote:
It sounded more anti-Israel than anti-Jewish to me. But what do I know.

EDIT: It could just be that I'm in the midst of reading Norman Finkelstein.

She was telling all the Jews to go back to Poland and Germany. To quote Jon Stewart, I wonder why they left there in the first place? Though the bigger issue is that a significant portion of Israeli Jews were born in Israel, and even a lot of those who don't come from other Middle Eastern countries, Russia, Ethiopia, etc.

Yeah, you're right on all counts. I do think some of the eagerness to jump on her for anti-semitism though related to the mainstream media's cheerleading of Israel.

You really think that she'd be treated any better if she'd said "all those damned blacks need to go back to Africa"?

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Jun 8 2010 20:26
Tojiah wrote:
Hughes wrote:
Tojiah wrote:
Hughes wrote:
It sounded more anti-Israel than anti-Jewish to me. But what do I know.

EDIT: It could just be that I'm in the midst of reading Norman Finkelstein.

She was telling all the Jews to go back to Poland and Germany. To quote Jon Stewart, I wonder why they left there in the first place? Though the bigger issue is that a significant portion of Israeli Jews were born in Israel, and even a lot of those who don't come from other Middle Eastern countries, Russia, Ethiopia, etc.

Yeah, you're right on all counts. I do think some of the eagerness to jump on her for anti-semitism though related to the mainstream media's cheerleading of Israel.

You really think that she'd be treated any better if she'd said "all those damned blacks need to go back to Africa"?

Do you really think that's a fair analogy? I mean, to be honest, I don't know much about the Palestine/Israel conflict. That's why I'm reading Finklestein; I plan on reading less partisan accounts later. But couldn't a more reasonable analogy be someone, during apartheid, saying the Afrikaners should go back to Europe?

Its a genuine question. So lets not make this hostile, please.

Caiman del Barrio
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Jun 9 2010 01:08
Hughes wrote:
Tojiah wrote:
Hughes wrote:
Tojiah wrote:
Hughes wrote:
It sounded more anti-Israel than anti-Jewish to me. But what do I know.

EDIT: It could just be that I'm in the midst of reading Norman Finkelstein.

She was telling all the Jews to go back to Poland and Germany. To quote Jon Stewart, I wonder why they left there in the first place? Though the bigger issue is that a significant portion of Israeli Jews were born in Israel, and even a lot of those who don't come from other Middle Eastern countries, Russia, Ethiopia, etc.

Yeah, you're right on all counts. I do think some of the eagerness to jump on her for anti-semitism though related to the mainstream media's cheerleading of Israel.

You really think that she'd be treated any better if she'd said "all those damned blacks need to go back to Africa"?

Do you really think that's a fair analogy? I mean, to be honest, I don't know much about the Palestine/Israel conflict. That's why I'm reading Finklestein; I plan on reading less partisan accounts later. But couldn't a more reasonable analogy be someone, during apartheid, saying the Afrikaners should go back to Europe

Maybe, if the Afrikaners had been subject to an attempted extermination in Europe (if we're gonna bring history into it...).

EDIT and there have been a number of discussions on here on this conflict, with a lot of good points being made about the inappropriate nature of the comparison with South African apartheid. In fact, when I was at uni, a visiting pro-Hamas Palestinian academic even made roughly the same point: unlike the white caste in South Africa, Israel has replaced the Palestinians as a labour class which is why they've been able to so heavily restrict their entry into Israel. A better comparison - to my understanding, at least (someone who's more knowledgeable on the subject can correct me) - would be with the native North Americans during the pioneer period.

baboon
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Jun 9 2010 12:24

Following the Israeli assault on the Gaza flotilla the Unite union in the UK has passed a motion to boycott Israeli companies. The Unite union is inextricably linked to the Labour Party at the highest levels. The Labour Party, which has been in government for the last 13 years has totally supported all the connections of British imperialism to Israel, the suppression of the Palestinian people, the military actions of Israel and the siege of Gaza.

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Jun 9 2010 13:06

CdB: In Canada,comparisons between Palestinians and First Nation's people are made by more astute politicos. I havent heard this comparison made for the "pioneer period" but for the here and now. I can articulate this in greater detail at a later time but right now I got to get to work.

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Entdinglichung
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Jun 9 2010 13:33

http://www.davidosler.com/2010/06/the-parallels-between-palestine-and-kurdistan/

Caiman del Barrio
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Jun 9 2010 15:48
smg wrote:
"pioneer period"

...is bad phrasing on my part. I'm encouraged to see you've also encountered it, and would like to see more details of the comparison. Like I say, I originally heard it off an (admittedly well-informed) pro-Hamas type.

Caiman del Barrio
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Jun 9 2010 15:50
baboon wrote:
Following the Israeli assault on the Gaza flotilla the Unite union in the UK has passed a motion to boycott Israeli companies. The Unite union is inextricably linked to the Labour Party at the highest levels. The Labour Party, which has been in government for the last 13 years has totally supported all the connections of British imperialism to Israel, the suppression of the Palestinian people, the military actions of Israel and the siege of Gaza.

Aren't there a few unions already doing this? My (right wing) Mum is pissed off with the UCU over it.

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Jun 9 2010 20:23
Hughes wrote:
Tojiah wrote:
Hughes wrote:
Yeah, you're right on all counts. I do think some of the eagerness to jump on her for anti-semitism though related to the mainstream media's cheerleading of Israel.

You really think that she'd be treated any better if she'd said "all those damned blacks need to go back to Africa"?

Do you really think that's a fair analogy?

In the sense that I think it would have caused similar outcry.

Also, it's equally ignorant of the fact that the Middle-Eastern and North-African Jews were actually pulled there by the Zionists and pushed there by Arab nationalists (and by Zionist agents provocateurs), and that most "European" Jews don't actually hold European citizenships.

Caiman del Barrio wrote:
In fact, when I was at uni, a visiting pro-Hamas Palestinian academic even made roughly the same point: unlike the white caste in South Africa, Israel has replaced the Palestinians as a labour class which is why they've been able to so heavily restrict their entry into Israel.

The situation in relation to bourgeois settlers in the West Bank is actually more analogous, as they do employ Palestinian workers wholesale, both legally and illegally. On the other hand, most settlers are actually proletarians whose day job is inside of Israel. Their interest in the West Bank is purely territorial, so they don't "need" the Palestinians. I've discussed this before.

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Jun 9 2010 20:35

ToJ, can you elaborate on why or how Israeli interests in the West Bank are purely territorial. In regard to a comparison with the situation in Canada, First Nations people are not "needed" by the Canadian state, however, the natural resources on their traditional territories are.

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Jun 9 2010 21:31
smg wrote:
ToJ, can you elaborate on why or how Israeli interests in the West Bank are purely territorial.

Where did I say that? I referred to working class Israelis in the West Bank, who use the settlements as suburbs and actually work inside of Israel. They don't need the Palestinians as much as the bourgeois settlers, for whom they are a vital lower-paid workforce.

bootsy
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Jun 9 2010 22:31

smg you might want to check out this thread in which ToJ goes more in depth rather than ask him/her to go over old arguments again.

baboon
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Jun 10 2010 11:54

I forced myself to listen to the reptile Tony Blair on Newsnight last night talking about the Middle East. The grief was worthwhile because he summed up the situation in half a sentence.

Blair is the "special envoy" of the Middle East (or Madrid) Quartet. It's made up of the UN, the EU, the United States and Russia. Now while all these gangsters are more or less at each others' throats, and while they all primarily representing their own national interests, they all have an interest in seeing the situation around the Palestinian question pacified. There is only one way to do this and that is with the support of the Israeli state - the gendarme of the region. In this sense, Blair is representing the overall interests of this den of these cutthroat thieves.

What I caught him saying was "... our job is to convince Israel that it is in its own security interests, its own strategic interests to have a Palestinian state". It couldn't be clearer. Although of a different size and weight than Israel obviously, a Palestinian state, a "free Gaza" would be just as much an imperialist abomination as the Zionist state.

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Jun 10 2010 18:27
baboon wrote:
...the Middle East (or Madrid) Quartet... made up of the UN, the EU, the United States and Russia... they all primarily representing their own national interests...

Aren't the EU, the US and Russia all members of the UN? Which national interests does the UN represent?

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Jun 10 2010 18:45
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Which national interests does the UN represent?

The "international community"? Or according to some people I know they represent teh "international bankers" (you know what I talkin' bout ToJ).

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Jun 10 2010 19:45

Thanks for the link and information folks. The BDS thread was really interesting and useful. Where I am, local Leftists and activists are pushing the BDS campaign like its some sort of street drug. So it is valuable to have read something critical from a class struggle perspective.

ToJ, is there much information on class contradictions in the settlements? If so what would you suggest examining?

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Jun 10 2010 20:25
smg wrote:
Thanks for the link and information folks. The BDS thread was really interesting and useful. Where I am, local Leftists and activists are pushing the BDS campaign like its some sort of street drug. So it is valuable to have read something critical from a class struggle perspective.

ToJ, is there much information on class contradictions in the settlements? If so what would you suggest examining?

I'm glad my ruminations and arguments have been of use to someone. I don't think I've actually seen anyone else do a class analysis of the settlements, aside from my very preliminary thoughts about it. Considering the poor state of class analysis in this country, I'm guessing that none exists, though I hope someone else can prove me wrong.

Caiman del Barrio
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Jun 11 2010 21:43

The logical conclusion of boycott campaigns:

Quote:
A delegation of gay residents of Tel Aviv has been banned from joining a gay pride march in Madrid because authorities in the Israeli city have not condemned the recent attack on the Gaza flotilla.

"After what has happened, and as human rights campaigners, it seemed barbaric to us to have them taking part," explained Antonio Poveda, of Spain's Federation of Lesbians, Gays, Transexuals and Bisexuals. "We don't just defend out own little patch."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/09/madrid-gay-pride-bans-israelis

Boris Badenov
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Jun 11 2010 22:06
Caiman del Barrio wrote:
The logical conclusion of boycott campaigns:
Quote:
A delegation of gay residents of Tel Aviv has been banned from joining a gay pride march in Madrid because authorities in the Israeli city have not condemned the recent attack on the Gaza flotilla.

"After what has happened, and as human rights campaigners, it seemed barbaric to us to have them taking part," explained Antonio Poveda, of Spain's Federation of Lesbians, Gays, Transexuals and Bisexuals. "We don't just defend out own little patch."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/09/madrid-gay-pride-bans-israelis

Yeah that will really hurt the uber-right-wing Israeli government I'm sure.

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Jun 11 2010 22:12
Vlad336 wrote:
Caiman del Barrio wrote:
The logical conclusion of boycott campaigns:
Quote:
A delegation of gay residents of Tel Aviv has been banned from joining a gay pride march in Madrid because authorities in the Israeli city have not condemned the recent attack on the Gaza flotilla.

"After what has happened, and as human rights campaigners, it seemed barbaric to us to have them taking part," explained Antonio Poveda, of Spain's Federation of Lesbians, Gays, Transexuals and Bisexuals. "We don't just defend out own little patch."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/09/madrid-gay-pride-bans-israelis

Yeah that will really hurt the uber-right-wing Israeli government I'm sure.

I think that the rationale is to communicate even to the more "progressive" Israeli groups that they will not be treated normally until the Palestinian issue is addressed, thus perhaps pushing them to be more active in that sphere.

Boris Badenov
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Jun 11 2010 22:30
Tojiah wrote:
Vlad336 wrote:
Caiman del Barrio wrote:
The logical conclusion of boycott campaigns:
Quote:
A delegation of gay residents of Tel Aviv has been banned from joining a gay pride march in Madrid because authorities in the Israeli city have not condemned the recent attack on the Gaza flotilla.

"After what has happened, and as human rights campaigners, it seemed barbaric to us to have them taking part," explained Antonio Poveda, of Spain's Federation of Lesbians, Gays, Transexuals and Bisexuals. "We don't just defend out own little patch."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/09/madrid-gay-pride-bans-israelis

Yeah that will really hurt the uber-right-wing Israeli government I'm sure.

I think that the rationale is to communicate even to the more "progressive" Israeli groups that they will not be treated normally until the Palestinian issue is addressed, thus perhaps pushing them to be more active in that sphere.

That is even worse, as if activists had any influence on a state's foreign policy.

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Tojiah
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Jun 11 2010 22:40
Vlad336 wrote:
Tojiah wrote:
Vlad336 wrote:
Caiman del Barrio wrote:
The logical conclusion of boycott campaigns:
Quote:
A delegation of gay residents of Tel Aviv has been banned from joining a gay pride march in Madrid because authorities in the Israeli city have not condemned the recent attack on the Gaza flotilla.

"After what has happened, and as human rights campaigners, it seemed barbaric to us to have them taking part," explained Antonio Poveda, of Spain's Federation of Lesbians, Gays, Transexuals and Bisexuals. "We don't just defend out own little patch."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/09/madrid-gay-pride-bans-israelis

Yeah that will really hurt the uber-right-wing Israeli government I'm sure.

I think that the rationale is to communicate even to the more "progressive" Israeli groups that they will not be treated normally until the Palestinian issue is addressed, thus perhaps pushing them to be more active in that sphere.

That is even worse, as if activists had any influence on a state's foreign policy.

No, see, if every single Israeli activist of any stripe dropped everything else they were doing and pressed the government to end the Occupation, the Palestinians would be saved! roll eyes