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Over 10 people killed after Israel storms aid ship

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fletcheroo
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May 31 2010 16:06

I love these notions of 'necessary self-defense' and victimhood forwarded by Israel (state and media alike) when the boarding of the ships in international waters was an act of piracy in which the only party potentially privy to the right of retaliation would be those initially aboard the said ships.

Boris Badenov
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May 31 2010 16:09
mikail wrote:
Do you really think that the Turkish state's involvement was not crucial in the organisation of this flotilla?

If it were then why is the Israeli gov. putting the blame on a vague conspiracy of "anti-Israel forces"? Surely they have the intelligence to know who was really behind this effort, and would have nothing to lose by calling out the Turkish state as the responsible party (given that the Turkish ambassador has already been recalled and hence there are no diplomatic relations to salvage).
I think the fact that Barak has given a very weak excuse for this shows that there is no way to really rationalize it beyond saying it was "a provocation from Israel's enemies."

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Khawaga
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May 31 2010 16:30
Quote:
Ok now obviously I accept that I am not very imformed. I just did not know that there was a possibility that the flotilla had a chance to reach palestine. But khawaga you yourself are contradicting a bit. On the one hand you say;

Quote:
and they tell this to protesting Palestinians all the time. should they just stop? or for that matter, should we tell striking workers not to strike because the state has told them they will crack down?
and then;

Quote:
Since Israel and Egypt does not allow supply across land, the whole point is to deliver it by sea or any other means necessary.

Activists have tried time and over to get through the Erez checkpoint between Israel and Gaza and the Rafah crossing between Egypt and Gaza for a very long time. That didn't work and since it didn't work practice has to change accordingly. The flotilla was partly an answer to this.

Quote:
would not lie to the workers if their strike is doomed. Yes I would support it but I will also honestly say that this may in the end weaken them and debate it.

That's a good point, but considering that an earlier flotilla had gone through (and I think one stopped to be fair) it wasn't like the action was "doomed". I follow these things quite closely and have close friends that have been involved in this stuff and tbh I was shocked that Israel actually did this. Boarding the vessles and beating people up is to be expected, but close to 20 people dead? I don't think anyone saw that coming.

Quote:
Another point is about your insistance on the composition of the flotilla;

are you certain that this was not primarily organised by the turkish NGO, IHH?

The Free Gaza Movement is an NGO registered in Cyprus. IHH is probably an endorser or is a local affiliate. But as far as I know, the FGM does not have any permanent international coordinators in Turkey. So, it was primarily organized by the FGM and must've gotten help in Turkey from various organizations.

Quote:
Do you really think that the Turkish state's involvement was not crucial in the organisation of this flotilla?

Depends on what you mean with 'crucial'. If allowing the flotilla to leave from Turkey, then obviously yes. But the flotilla could just as well have left from another country. To be fair, I don't know the specifics of how it was organized on the ground in Turkey. Maybe state involvement was substantial, maybe not. But by no means was it behind the organizing.

Quote:
But I still think that you should consider these things. Because right now there are angry mobs on the streets over here that want to kill every jews and want a war over Israel. The hypocracy of the turksih state should be revealed. I may not be very informed but I am still not convinced that turkish state is also innocent in this insidance...

On this I can't comment. While I know that Turkey-Israeli relations are far from as close as they used to be, I simply don't follow Turkish affairs close enough to understand how the Turkish state would gain from this.

no1
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May 31 2010 16:41

nutters!

Quote:
JERUSALEM — Israeli police say 16 pro-Palestinian activists from a Gaza-bound flotilla have been sent to jail after a deadly confrontation at sea. Dozens of other activists are to be deported. Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld says the activists were taken ashore and were jailed in the southern desert town of Beersheba after refusing to identify themselves. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g8-DEMtAE9q4i4ySQ0eV_qZefmRQD9G1TNPG0

Off to the local protest now.

Elli
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May 31 2010 18:59

Not the first time, and certainly not the last time the Israeli state will massacre innocent people.

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Khawaga
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May 31 2010 19:00
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Not the first time, and certainly not the last time the Israeli state will massacre innocent people.

That's what states do, which is nothing particular to the Israeli state.

Elli
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May 31 2010 19:06

Yet it seems Israel has a strong penchant about it.

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Khawaga
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May 31 2010 19:17

I dunno, the Sri Lankan state killed more Tamils in a few weeks than Israel has done the last couple of decades. Even the US/UK have killed more than Israel. My point being is that you should be really careful about ascribing Israel some exceptional penchant for evil that no other state has.

Elli
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May 31 2010 19:29

I don't think I have?

But nor do I subscribe to some relativistic, the islands of Tonga are on the same level as the State of Israel/US/UK, bullshit. Some states have a greater military and economic strength than others, hence are more capable (and willing) to commit greater atrocities than others. That's not ascribing Israel, or the US, or whatever with an evil brush, its just a reality.

I don't know why you're bothering being such a pedantic fuck about "Not the first time, and certainly not the last time the Israeli state will massacre innocent people."

Should I have written

"Not the first time, and certainly not the last time a state will massacre innocent people."

?

Well, sweetheart, this thread is about Israel...hence I'm going to talk about Israel. roll eyes

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Khawaga
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May 31 2010 19:33
Elli wrote:
I don't know why you're bothering being such a pedantic fuck about "Not the first time, and certainly not the last time the Israeli state will massacre innocent people."

Well, sorry if I took your statement the wrong way, but that's how I interpreted your comment. And these types of comments often lead down the shitty path of supporting national liberations movements, Hamas and Hezbollah.

Elli
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May 31 2010 19:35

Because one can never condemn the actions of one nation-state without automatically supporting its opponents, amirite? roll eyes

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Khawaga
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May 31 2010 19:45
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Because one can never condemn the actions of one nation-state without automatically supporting its opponents, amirite?

No, of course you can. I guess I jumped the gun on this one. Most new posters that come in on Israel discussions make comments like that and end up screaming support for "the resistance". hence, I see someone who has made a new account yesterday and makes a comment like that I just assumed. So in short, I apologize for ascribing you views that you don't have.

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Joseph Kay
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May 31 2010 19:50

it's not a new poster, it's Marsella. rebanned for trolling another thread.

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Tojiah
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May 31 2010 20:24

No, but y'all don't understand, those Special Ops soldiers were being lynched! Why do you hate the Juice? Why?

Half my facebook friends are buying this shit hook, line, sinker and depleted Uranium bait, as are most of my workmates and people I was waiting with in line to the doctor's. sad

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Tojiah
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May 31 2010 20:32
revol68 wrote:
Tojiah wrote:
No, but y'all don't understand, those Special Ops soldiers were being lynched! Why do you hate the Juice? Why?

Half my facebook friends are buying this shit hook, line, sinker and depleted Uranium bait, as are most of my workmates and people I was waiting with in line to the doctor's. :-(

Christ it must be soul destroying.

It's just the same shit all over again. Every single fucking time this country does some crap like this, more and more cheering voices. Lebanon, Gaza, now this..

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mikail firtinaci
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May 31 2010 20:34
Quote:
On this I can't comment. While I know that Turkey-Israeli relations are far from as close as they used to be, I simply don't follow Turkish affairs close enough to understand how the Turkish state would gain from this.

Well I may have fixated on the turkish imperialism a bit. Though I in no way try to defend the Isreal brutality. Still as in the discussion above with the Ella no state and even proto state/guerilla group are less capable than Isreal/US/etc. to act violently and willing to make massacres.

Anyway the issue about the turkey is, it is getting more independent in its imperialist policies day by day. Hence, it is becoming a middle level imperialist actor itself, becoming closer to Iran and distanced to Isreal. Here the media's perspective and the way of presenting the issue is as if Isreal consciously attacked not only the flatillo or palestine but also turkey. I accept that I may have been affected from this even in a negative way.

Boris Badenov
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May 31 2010 20:39
Tojiah wrote:
No, but y'all don't understand, those Special Ops soldiers were being lynched! Why do you hate the Juice? Why?

lynching? Oh you mean "killing without legal sanction", like for example shooting ten people dead in international waters? Yeah, terrible thing that.

Quote:
Half my facebook friends are buying this shit hook, line, sinker and depleted Uranium bait, as are most of my workmates and people I was waiting with in line to the doctor's. :-(

Probably depressing as fuck, but then again, I can't even begin to imagine the profound paranoia and self-righteousness that probably pervades all aspects of Israeli politics.

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Tojiah
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May 31 2010 20:43
Vlad336 wrote:
Tojiah wrote:
No, but y'all don't understand, those Special Ops soldiers were being lynched! Why do you hate the Juice? Why?

lynching? Oh you mean "killing without legal sanction", like for example shooting ten people dead in international waters? Yeah, terrible thing that.

That kind of sanity gets you dubbed a Jew-hating maniac 'round these parts.

Vlad336 wrote:
Quote:
Half my facebook friends are buying this shit hook, line, sinker and depleted Uranium bait, as are most of my workmates and people I was waiting with in line to the doctor's. :-(

Probably depressing as fuck, but then again, I can't even begin to imagine the profound paranoia and self-righteousness that probably pervades all aspects of Israeli politics.

Yeah, paranoid self-righteousness pretty much sums it up.

gypsy
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May 31 2010 20:46
Tojiah wrote:
Vlad336 wrote:
Tojiah wrote:
No, but y'all don't understand, those Special Ops soldiers were being lynched! Why do you hate the Juice? Why?

lynching? Oh you mean "killing without legal sanction", like for example shooting ten people dead in international waters? Yeah, terrible thing that.

That kind of sanity gets you dubbed a Jew-hating maniac 'round these parts.

Vlad336 wrote:
Quote:
Half my facebook friends are buying this shit hook, line, sinker and depleted Uranium bait, as are most of my workmates and people I was waiting with in line to the doctor's. :-(

Probably depressing as fuck, but then again, I can't even begin to imagine the profound paranoia and self-righteousness that probably pervades all aspects of Israeli politics.

Yeah, paranoid self-righteousness pretty much sums it up.

Do you think they monitor your posts on here?

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mikail firtinaci
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May 31 2010 20:49

Tojiah;

there are lots of people on the turkish side of the facebook who blame Hitler for not finishing the job he started. All colors of nationalism are shades of the same brown - shit.

Black Badger
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May 31 2010 20:57

It's not just the politics, but the bulk of the culture industry, the public educational system, mainstream journalism, and don't forget the immense public relations behemoth too. Unless all that is what you meant by Israeli politics....

And I definitely detected the standard anti-imperialist bullshit from "Elli."

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Tojiah
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May 31 2010 20:58
allybaba wrote:
Tojiah wrote:
Vlad336 wrote:
Tojiah wrote:
No, but y'all don't understand, those Special Ops soldiers were being lynched! Why do you hate the Juice? Why?

lynching? Oh you mean "killing without legal sanction", like for example shooting ten people dead in international waters? Yeah, terrible thing that.

That kind of sanity gets you dubbed a Jew-hating maniac 'round these parts.

Vlad336 wrote:
Quote:
Half my facebook friends are buying this shit hook, line, sinker and depleted Uranium bait, as are most of my workmates and people I was waiting with in line to the doctor's. :-(

Probably depressing as fuck, but then again, I can't even begin to imagine the profound paranoia and self-righteousness that probably pervades all aspects of Israeli politics.

Yeah, paranoid self-righteousness pretty much sums it up.

Do you think they monitor your posts on here?

Why would they bother?

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mikail firtinaci
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May 31 2010 21:39

Well first of all I should say that there is a disgusting cynicism in this article. Still there might be something to learn even from the enemy;

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20100531_flotillas_and_wars_public_opinion?utm_source=GWeekly&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=100531&utm_content=readmore&elq=f56af97dfdf84407937716b5392a7c18

My aim to post this link here is to show the perception of an inhuman author writing on states which are the agents of imperialism and whch are equally inhuman. So please pay attention to the parts about the turkish flattillo and the situation of israel and turkey. I know that this sounds very complo theory like without any proof.

Allesram
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May 31 2010 21:49

BlackBadger wrote:

“And I definitely detected the standard anti-imperialist bullshit from "Elli."

Criticizing the actions of one nation state (which, incidentally, half a dozen other posters have done in this thread - indeed, that is the very purpose of this thread - yet, somehow, I am the only one criticized about it roll eyes ) does not amount to supporting any so-called “anti-imperialist” movement. I wholly oppose any attempt by anyone to lead workers into a nationalist blood-bath. The only foreseeable solution to this conflict which I can conceive, however improbable, is the combined efforts of both Israeli and Palestinian workers against a system which pits them one against the other. If you have issue with this, then say so.

As one poster put it:

“Nonetheless, I think it's really clear this isn't what those on board the flotilla are concerned with. Expressing entirely legitimate shock and real solidarity with them and what they're trying to do need not mean siding with any nation-state.”

I called this a massacre by the Israeli state. I pointed out that this wasn’t the first of its kind, nor will it be the last. If you have issues with those facts, then point them out. Only someone completely deluded would equate my disgust with the murder of innocent people with a defense of Hamas or whatever.

Allesram
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May 31 2010 21:57

Some people go so far with their anti-anti-imperialism, that any expression of sympathy with the victims or conversely disgust with those who committed such a crime are condemned as supporters of nationalist liberation movements. That is a great leap in logic, especially when applied to internationalists.

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mikail firtinaci
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May 31 2010 22:03
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Some people go so far with their anti-anti-imperialism, that any expression of sympathy with the victims or conversely disgust with those who committed such a crime are condemned as supporters of nationalist liberation movements. That is a great leap in logic, especially when applied to internationalists.

If you get that impression from this discussion I think you are also making a great leap in logic.

Allesram
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May 31 2010 22:11

I get that impression from two people equating my disgust with support of "anti-imperialist bullshit."

So no, not really a great leap in logic, although most of your posts in this thread are.

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mikail firtinaci
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May 31 2010 22:17
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although most of your posts in this thread are.

If you get that impression from anything I wrote I am sorry about that. On the contrary my intention was never that.

Angelus Novus
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May 31 2010 23:21

Right, because communists should never try to contextualize anything, or understand social relations in their entirety.

The task of communists is to join the liberal chorus of moral outrage.

roll eyes

P.S. The notion that an ICC member of all people is somehow engaging in sneaky rationalizations for Israel is the purest idiocy. The leap made to impute that to mikail reveals the bad conscience of the people attacking him.

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mikail firtinaci
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May 31 2010 23:20

After all revol 68, even "anti imperialist fucks" are human, and all human beings try to understand, define and learn about their "contexts". No human action takes place out of the context of human relations and in order to understand the state brutality (which is carried out by human beings and against them at the same time) its context (imperialism) should be understood. My personal attempt to do this has nothing to do with rejecting any personal or emotional sympathy with the people who are subjected to that attack. On the contrary, I familiarize myself with their pain in this context that we mutually exist in.