Over 10 people killed after Israel storms aid ship

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bootsy
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May 31 2010 06:52
Over 10 people killed after Israel storms aid ship

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10195838.stm

Pretty fucked up.

bootsy
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May 31 2010 07:14
bootsy wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10195838.stm
Quote:
More than 10 people have been killed after Israeli commandos stormed a convoy of ships carrying aid to the Gaza Strip, the Israeli army says.

Pretty fucked up, I've heard the death toll could be as high as 30.

gypsy
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May 31 2010 08:18

Yeah this is very fucked up.

no1
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May 31 2010 08:56
Quote:
Israeli Arabs call general strike over Gaza flotilla takeover
Israeli Arabs are protesting against the takeover of the Gaza flotilla, which claimed to lives of at least 10 activists. The Higher Arab Monitoring Committee on Monday called for a general strike on Tuesday. The committee’s acting chairman, Ramez Jaraisi, called for an international probe into what he called “the State of Israel’s crimes”.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3896555,00.html
Walkingbeard
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May 31 2010 09:21

Hi,

Can everyone within reasonable range of London please come to protest at one of the following locations today:

- Westminster
- Whitehall (Foreign Office)
- The Israeli Embassy, 2 Palace Green, London, W8 4QB

Bring your anger if nothing else.

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jef costello
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May 31 2010 11:19
revol68 wrote:
nice to see the BBC removing any agency from the killings, instead they are deaths as Israeli troops stormed the ship, presumably everyone just happened to die of natural causes coincidentally at the same time a load of heavily armed IDF cunts boarded.

never let small details like the truth get in the way of editorial balance.

They always used the passive voice, 'were killed as the IDF' rather than 'the IDF shot them dead'
Interesting the big turkish connection here though.

gypsy
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May 31 2010 11:25
jef costello wrote:
revol68 wrote:
nice to see the BBC removing any agency from the killings, instead they are deaths as Israeli troops stormed the ship, presumably everyone just happened to die of natural causes coincidentally at the same time a load of heavily armed IDF cunts boarded.

never let small details like the truth get in the way of editorial balance.

They always used the passive voice, 'were killed as the IDF' rather than 'the IDF shot them dead'
Interesting the big turkish connection here though.

As Revol commented on the BBC removing any agency from the killings. Its clear the bbc are guilty of being pressured by lobby groups to write up articles which lack balance just so to satisfy one groups complaints. Cowardly behaviour.

shiningwit
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May 31 2010 11:30

allybaba wrote: As Revol commented on the BBC removing any agency from the killings. Its clear the bbc are guilty of being pressured by lobby groups to write up articles which lack balance just so to satisfy one groups complaints. Cowardly behaviour.

Unlike your totally unbiased opinion....

Jenre
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May 31 2010 11:38

i heard someone from the Israeli government on the radio claim entering Gaza with aid was "provocative".

interesting line coming from an illegal occupying force, i thought

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mikail firtinaci
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May 31 2010 11:42

The Turkey is also responcible. Turkey has deliberately and consciously let the usage of ships for the "aids" to be send. However the egyptian border might have been safer. The so called "NGO" who organised the ships was in fact an islamist ngo probably close the government.

The truth of the issue is; turkey wanted to challenge isreal and israel raised the bets. Now there is a crazy islamist protest movement going on in turkey and I believe in all muslim countries. I think the true internationalist position is to denounce the isreal imperialism but also the turkish one and its machievellianism.

gypsy
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May 31 2010 11:54
shiningwit wrote:
allybaba wrote: As Revol commented on the BBC removing any agency from the killings. Its clear the bbc are guilty of being pressured by lobby groups to write up articles which lack balance just so to satisfy one groups complaints. Cowardly behaviour.

Unlike your totally unbiased opinion....

I am not biased actually. btw next time you wanna quote someone- click the quote button on the bottom right.

gypsy
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May 31 2010 12:06
revol68 wrote:
Shiningwit joined up less than an hour ago, what's the odds he's one of those professional trolls for the Israeli state?

I don't know what's worse being so lacking in honour you will be a troll for pay or being so lacking in brains you actually do this shit for free?

Sounds trollish to me. I would say doing it for money is probably the more honourable. Wage slave init.

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mikail firtinaci
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May 31 2010 12:23

Now one of the turkish ministers is talking on tv;

-there was a terrorist attack to a turkish military station in the Syrian border of turkey which left 7 soldiers dead. He connected this attack with the Isreal.

-He is saying that this was a pirate attack on the international seas and that he is denouncing that.

- "Turkey recalled its diplomats from Isreal"

- "UN security council was called for emergent meeting by turkey"

- "Arabic Union and Islamic Union have also been called for an emergent gathering".

he is basically calling "international" audiance to harsher measures against Isreal.

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mikail firtinaci
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May 31 2010 12:36

One more aditional point;

I don't want to sound like complo theorists but turkey was getting international pressure since it strengthened its relations with Iran and especially the initiation of uranium trade. So it is not much surprising that Turkish government might relieve with this issue...

Boris Badenov
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May 31 2010 13:16

So mikail, if I understand correctly the activists on the boat were "islamist"? Or were the people on the boat not involved in any of that? Because if the first, I reckon it will definitely be used by the Israeli gov. to justify the attack.

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mikail firtinaci
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May 31 2010 13:42

I did not say the activists were islamists, In fact I do not know who are they. But the organisation is - it is a member of İslam World Union of NGO's (here is a turkish link; http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%B0HH_%28%C4%B0nsani_Yard%C4%B1m_Vakf%C4%B1%29) . Anyway as far as I know there are also western european people on the boats.

Second, my primary concern is not how isreal government use what but the truth. And there can be no humane explanation for an imperialist intervention. However if the turkish burgeoisie is making maneuvers in order to manipulate the feelings against the isreal and using these for its imperialist ambitions then this should also be recognized by the communists.

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Volin
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May 31 2010 14:01
mikail firtinaci wrote:
The so called "NGO" who organised the ships was in fact an islamist ngo probably close the government.

There are a multitude of NGOs, groups and individuals involved. Some may be 'Islamist' and, I'm sure, the Turkish state does see it as an opportunity to challenge Israel's authority and reputation.

Nonetheless, I think it's really clear this isn't what those on board the flotilla are concerned with. Expressing entirely legitimate shock and real solidarity with them and what they're trying to do need not mean siding with any nation-state.

As regards the Egyptian border: I'm no expert, but I know this was tried quite recently and the last I heard it was blocked by Israel.

Edit:

Free Gaza Movement wrote:
The Freedom Flotilla Coalition is comprised of: Free Gaza Movement (FG), European Campaign to End the Siege of Gaza (ECESG), Insani Yardim Vakfi (IHH), Ship to Gaza Greece, Ship to Gaza Sweden, and the International Committee to Lift the Siege on Gaza, with hundreds of groups and organizations around the world supporting the effort.

http://www.freegaza.org/en/home/press-releases/1171-second-ship-joins-the-freedom-flotilla-on-way-to-gaza

BBC wrote:
Gaza Aid Convoy

* Consists of three cargo ships and three passenger ships
* Casualties reported on the Mavi Marmara passenger ferry
* Mavi Marmara is one of three ships provided by Insani Yardim Vakfi (IHH), a Turkish aid organisation with links to the Turkish government
* Other ships are organised by the Free Gaza Movement, an international coalition of activist groups
* Up to 600 mostly Turkish passengers, tonnes of cement and at least two journalists on board the Mavi Marmara

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10195838.stm

Apparently, there was due to be eight ships in the convoy, but two 'mysteriously' stopped working at the same time.

http://www.freegaza.org/en/home/press-releases/1188-were-on-our-way

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mikail firtinaci
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May 31 2010 14:11
Quote:
but I know this was tried quite recently and the last I heard it was blocked by Israel.

If I remembered correctly it was attacked by the egyptian state. Still safer...

Quote:
Nonetheless, I think it's really clear this isn't what those on board the flotilla are concerned with. Expressing entirely legitimate shock and real solidarity with them and what they're trying to do need not mean siding with any nation-state.

I may agree with this on an individual level. However on a more general level I still the tend to think that it is mainly the Turkish state that enabled this adventure. I am only quessing but there might have been easier ways to help people in Gazze if the intention was that. However it is obvious that no concrete solution can be found without the materialization of an international solidarity among first the palestinian and isreal workers.

EDIT;

I could not find the link right now but I remember reading somewhere yesterday that Isreal declared if the organisations really want to deliver the aids, they should have let the Isreal army to check the ships and get the aids to gazza. I might be wrong so I will check for the link again.

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Volin
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May 31 2010 14:22
mikail firtinaci wrote:
However it is obvious that no concrete solution can be found without the materialization of an international solidarity among first the palestinian and isreal workers.

Of course, I agree with this. If it needs to be said, the problem is that ordinary working class Gazans are being hit hardest by a blockade that boggles the mind in its audacity and increasing control. Without the necessities of life, there couldn't even be the chance of international solidarity. I'm very conscious of avoiding the inevitable flag flying and pro-Hamas (etc.) sentiment that this is going to provoke, nor do I in any way defend the aims and nature of groups like Insani Yardim Vakfi.

At the same time, internationalism shouldn't be about inactivity. There aren't any easy ways to help Gazan workers and aid needs to get to them somehow.

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/content.asp?CategoryID=11764
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8654337.stm

Edit:

Quote:
I could not find the link right now but I remember reading somewhere yesterday that Isreal declared if the organisations really want to deliver the aids, they should have let the Isreal army to check the ships and get the aids to gazza. I might be wrong so I will check for the link again.

Yeah, I'm aware of this as well but it's blatant propaganda. This has happened many times before, when aid disappears completely, certain items are confiscated or it's delayed for ages by which point it is unusable.

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Hughes
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May 31 2010 14:21

VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR2GQQBGTlY&feature=player_embedded#!

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Khawaga
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May 31 2010 14:30
Mikhail wrote:
I may agree with this on an individual level. However on a more general level I still the tend to think that it is mainly the Turkish state that enabled this adventure.

I think this is a conspiracy theory. The first Free Gaza movement flotilla set out of Alexandria in Egypt, by no means did the Egyptian state 'enable' the adventure. Most likely the reason that Turkey and Egypt have been chosen in the past is that they are closer to Gaza than say Greece or Italy. Probably more about costs than anything else.

Quote:
I am only quessing but there might have been easier ways to help people in Gazze if the intention was that.

There is not. It's impossible to get supplies through Egypt or Israel. It has been tried countless times (while I was living in Egypt I worked with activists who did try to cross through Rafah. At times they didn't even make it to North Sinai before they were sent back to Cairo). Even "respected" NGOs like Red Cross can't get their shit through Israel. Fact is, the first Free Gaza flotilla did manage to get through so going by sea has been the easiest way.

What has happened is that the Israeli govt. is trying to scare away future humanitarian convoys by excessive use of violence. This is exactly what they did with the killings of ISM activists in 2003 and what they've been doing more recently with using more live ammunition in protests.

fletcheroo
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May 31 2010 14:57
mikail firtinaci wrote:
I could not find the link right now but I remember reading somewhere yesterday that Isreal declared if the organisations really want to deliver the aids, they should have let the Isreal army to check the ships and get the aids to gazza. I might be wrong so I will check for the link again.

Which is nothing more than sophistry, it's widely known that the passage of goods to Gaza is strictly regulated and comprimised, if passed onto Israeli authorities much of the aid would not have been permitted entry to Gaza.

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2...333613851.html

Similarly the point of the flotilla was not simply to deliver aid, but to protest the blockade of Gaza in the first place and the inhumane conditions imposed upon its populous, purposefully inhibiting the means of life of 1.5 million people and casting them to abject poverty.

Israel has simply again practiced widely disproportional force, this time through piracy (as defined by the international maritime bureau)

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mikail firtinaci
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May 31 2010 14:56

So Khawaga if you are saying that there is no way to deliver aid to Israil then the question remains why the insistence on this mission?

On the other hand the threat was already there but what did the Turkish state did to stop that is not very clear...

So let me summarise the issue as the way I see it;

1. Isreal was already warning that it was going to attack.

2. Turkish state did not make any effort to hinder an attack - I am saying turkish state because appearantly the majority of the people on the ships are from turkish origin.

3. It was very obscure and probably impossible for the ships to reach Gazze.

Well in this case what may the possible intentions of Turkish state. Not bothering?

Black Badger
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May 31 2010 15:04

If NGOs in Turkey are anything like NGOs in the US, then there is very likely a large contingent in its bureaucracy that is intimately connected with official state contacts. Funding and other sorts of organizational and logistical aid from the government is standard, accepted, and recognized.

Boris Badenov
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May 31 2010 15:23

footage from the boat after the attack:

gypsy
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May 31 2010 15:35
Vlad336 wrote:
footage from the boat after the attack:

sad

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May 31 2010 15:40
mikhail wrote:
So Khawaga if you are saying that there is no way to deliver aid to Israil then the question remains why the insistence on this mission?

Since Israel and Egypt does not allow supply across land, the whole point is to deliver it by sea or any other means necessary. And fletecheroo made a very good point,

fletcheroo wrote:
Similarly the point of the flotilla was not simply to deliver aid, but to protest the blockade of Gaza in the first place and the inhumane conditions imposed upon its populous, purposefully inhibiting the means of life of 1.5 million people and casting them to abject poverty.
Quote:
1. Isreal was already warning that it was going to attack.

and they tell this to protesting Palestinians all the time. should they just stop? or for that matter, should we tell striking workers not to strike because the state has told them they will crack down?

Quote:
2. Turkish state did not make any effort to hinder an attack - I am saying turkish state because appearantly the majority of the people on the ships are from turkish origin.

but the flotilla wasn't a Turkish state initiative, it was non-governmental. in fact, if the Turkish state had been involved it would've been war now.

Quote:
3. It was very obscure and probably impossible for the ships to reach Gazze.

A similar flotilla has gotten through earlier, so it wasn't impossible. And in any case, the fact that a humanitarian mission is stopped is a PR coup on behalf of the Palestinians (and it doesn't matter if you agree with that tactic or not).

Quote:
Well in this case what may the possible intentions of Turkish state. Not bothering?/quote]

Because it wasn't a Turkish state initiative. Seriously not every fucking thing done by an NGO or an international coalition of NGO has to be backed by a state.

Mikhail, you're just seeing conspiracies where there are none. Read up on the Free Gaza movement, read up on how Israel and Egypt blocks supplies to Gaza and then you might be able to come with an informed opinion on this. You're just speculating now and you're sounding like my loony conspiracy friends.

Boris Badenov
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May 31 2010 15:50

The official conspiracy theory, as outlined by the Israeli gov:

Guardian wrote:
Ehud Barak, Israel's defence minister, insisted again today that there was no hunger and no humanitarian crisis in Gaza. The whole flotilla operation, he said, was "a political and media provocation by anti-Israeli organisations".
Quote:
According to a spokeswoman for Israel Defence Forces (IDF), Avital Leibovich, officers aboard its warships gave the activists several warnings before boarding the Turkish ferry, the Mavi Marmara.

"We found ourselves in the middle of a lynching," she told reporters in the Israeli port of Ashdod. Around 10 activists attacked commandos, she said, relieving them of their pistols.

"We didn't look for confrontation but it was a massive attack," she said. "What happened was a last resort."

Look at these bloodthirsty lynchers:

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Hughes
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May 31 2010 15:50
Vlad336 wrote:
footage from the boat after the attack:

For future reference, how do you post a video into a thread? I tried to do it above, but couldn't manage it.

Boris Badenov
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May 31 2010 15:56
Hughes wrote:

For future reference, how do you post a video into a thread? I tried to do it above, but couldn't manage it.

you take the part of the youtube link that comes after the "v=" (a short string of letters, numbers and symbols) and put it in youtube tags ([youtube][/youtube])

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mikail firtinaci
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May 31 2010 16:00

Ok now obviously I accept that I am not very imformed. I just did not know that there was a possibility that the flotilla had a chance to reach palestine. But khawaga you yourself are contradicting a bit. On the one hand you say;

Quote:
and they tell this to protesting Palestinians all the time. should they just stop? or for that matter, should we tell striking workers not to strike because the state has told them they will crack down?

and then;

Quote:
Since Israel and Egypt does not allow supply across land, the whole point is to deliver it by sea or any other means necessary.

If the question is this flotilla thing works and your answer is yes then I respect this as a more informed opinion. But if it is not then my answer is no this should not have been done or supported. I would not lie to the workers if their strike is doomed. Yes I would support it but I will also honestly say that this may in the end weaken them and debate it.

Anyway an NGO flotilla is something else.

Another point is about your insistance on the composition of the flotilla;

are you certain that this was not primarily organised by the turkish NGO, IHH?

Do you really think that the Turkish state's involvement was not crucial in the organisation of this flotilla?

If your answers are yes, then yeah these might be mere speculation. But I still think that you should consider these things. Because right now there are angry mobs on the streets over here that want to kill every jews and want a war over Israel. The hypocracy of the turksih state should be revealed. I may not be very informed but I am still not convinced that turkish state is also innocent in this insidance...