Osama Bin Laden Dead.

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Devrim
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May 2 2011 21:11
Samotnaf wrote:
his body, apparently in "sensitively" keeping with Islamic law , is buried at sea within 24 hours of his death;
Islamic law does not allow for burial at sea in such circumstances - the body has to be buried on land;

You are right about these circumstances. Sharia only allows burial at sea in the case of death at sea when it is impossible to return the corpse to land.

Samotnaf wrote:
the justification for this burial at sea is hinted at in the discussions suggesting a mausoleum or simple grave would become a focus for demonstrations in support of the Great Martyr;

Osama was a Salafist, and a pretty extreme one at that. In that tradition the dead are buried in an unmarked grave. They see monuments and even stones above graves as potentially leading to 'Şirk' (idolatry). When the Saudis took Mecca in 1804, they destroyed the monument above the grave of Fatima, and about ten years ago they destroyed the tomb of Mohammed's mother. It would have been extremely unlike for him to have even a simple grave that could have become a focus for his supporters if he had been buried according to his tradition.

Devrim

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May 2 2011 21:30
sabot wrote:
O fuck off all of youse!! I know what this is really about. You're just jealous of our freedoms and our BIG American penis’s.

U-S-A!! U-S-A!!

Reading my libcom profile I see wink

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May 2 2011 22:35
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By allowing some idiotic Islamists to fly two planes straight into the twin towers and by fabricating an air-raid that supposedly took place at the same time on the Pentagon, the USA not only created the biggest fraud in the history of mankind, but they also fabricated the excuse they needed in order to put into motion a series of long-, and short-term, aims that had already been decided upon. [28] Using “pre-emptive” strikes and the permanent war against the “axis of evil”, which is supposedly threatening the whole “international community”, as its ideological flag, and the deadliest war machine of mass destruction ever assembled as its weapon, the leading faction of the Capitalist International waged war against Afghanistan and Iraq (with more to come) with the aim:

- to further promote the process of "creative destruction" of pre-capitalist subsistence economies ―a steady aim of all capitalist wars for the last 60 years;
- to reverse the generalised crisis of the reproduction of the capitalist relation, created by a demanding and sometimes rebellious “surplus population” and by the politics of deregulation itself;
- to put a break on the extremities of the previous generalised war deregulation by creating protectorates which at the same time function as refugee-, and as “social work” camps for the populations of the attacked countries, thus militarising welfare politics (with the help of the NGO's and of “humanitarian aid”);
- to drag along their "own" population in the war by creating a consensus ideology of panic and animosity against the "failed, pre-modern states of the third world who threaten the security of the developed West and must thus be put under its surveillance", to use the language of the neo-imperialist dogma;
- to put the energy resources of Central Asia and the Middle East under its direct control by increasing the number of occupation forces already stationed there since the early 90's, from the Red Sea up till the Pacific;
- to police the impending social and political disorder in Saudi Arabia and Iran; and, through a pro-USA government in Iraq, to strip Saudi Arabia from any possibility of regulating the production and price of oil, thus weakening OPEC; [29]
- finally, to secure the controlled reproduction of the war economy through which the crisis of over-accumulation in the capitalist “centre” is dealt with, and through which the development of the “free market” in the “periphery” is promoted.

http://libcom.org/library/war-terror
http://www.tapaidiatisgalarias.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/War,%20peace2.pdf

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May 2 2011 22:50

This media event (which I take only an uneasy, vicarious pleasure in) is already being used for ideological purposes by right wing lunatics.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/2011/05/how-osama-bin-laden-resembled-michael-moore-noam-chomsky-and-others-left

Can you imagine this kind of article being written so quickly? Though the fact that Bin Laden was killed during Obama's reign, there will probably be right wing rhetoric extended against Pakistan. How else can the GOP break the halo that this event has attributed to Obama?

ryuit
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May 2 2011 22:54

I think we need to put conspiracy theories aside here. Like all others of this magnitude i suspect that planning and carrying out a conspiracy like this would have far too many dangers and risks to make it worthwhile for those who wanted to. Think how many people would need to be aware it wasn't true. What if just one of those came clean and revealed the truth for some reason? It would be the end of the whole Obama administration and the highest military command. What are the benefits to make such a risk worthwhile? Granted the US and all the other countries entangled in Afghanistan can shape this for their own benefit both domestically and in terms of their imperialist escapades but what makes now a better time than at any stage in the last nine and a half years to do it?

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May 2 2011 23:00

If we're concocting conspiracies, how about this one: Everything happened just the authorities claim. But they deliberately made everything look shady so that conspiracy theorists would obsess over the details rather than doing anything politically significant.

ryuit
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May 2 2011 23:06

You're getting into the realms of south park episodes there!

petey
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May 2 2011 23:26
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It would have been extremely unlike for him to have even a simple grave that could have become a focus for his supporters if he had been buried according to his tradition.

i still think some would have visited, if they knew where it was, or even the vicinity. he was admired by more than salafists. but how much a grave would matter to the al-qaeda rank and file i wouldn't know, probably, as you suggest, not much at all.

Quote:
Can you imagine this kind of article being written so quickly?

actually, yes

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How else can the GOP break the halo that this event has attributed to Obama?

by praising the special forces who carried the attack, who were executing a policy formulated by the bush white house. just don't mention obama. this will work for the hardcores, but the party regulars have already used the o-word in their statements. but they're muslosocialist dupes anyway:

Quote:
The date, May 1, is also a day loaded with political and occult significance. May 1st is known around the world as International Worker’s Day and is celebrated widely. By releasing the news on May Day, President Obama has forced his unwitting political opponents to celebrate the same holiday as socialists, communists, and anarchists. Pretty sneaky, Mr. President

it's true, you know that?

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May 2 2011 23:29
Red-Metta wrote:
.It is interesting to remember that the BBC actually announced the collapsing of a building sometime before it actually collapsed, with the journalist stood with the intact building in question just behind her, when she made the announcement.

They also announced that the buildings were collapsing as if they were part of a controlled demolition when they way they fell was consistent with the damage that they took. One problem with 24 hour news is it requires constant talking by people who know very little about a lot of what they are talking about.
I don't buy that conspiracy theory because there simply isn't the evidence, I also have never understood why conspiracy theorists are only willing to treat the official line with any degree of scepticism.

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888
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May 2 2011 23:44
Steven. wrote:
40 incredibly stupid Facebook reactions to Osama's death:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/40-incredibly-dumb-facebook-reactions-to-osama-bin

Most of those comments are only stupid, not incredibly so... Also why protect morons' dignity by censoring their names? That's annoying..

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May 2 2011 23:55
ryuit wrote:
I think we need to put conspiracy theories aside here. Like all others of this magnitude i suspect that planning and carrying out a conspiracy like this would have far too many dangers and risks to make it worthwhile for those who wanted to. Think how many people would need to be aware it wasn't true. What if just one of those came clean and revealed the truth for some reason? It would be the end of the whole Obama administration and the highest military command. What are the benefits to make such a risk worthwhile? Granted the US and all the other countries entangled in Afghanistan can shape this for their own benefit both domestically and in terms of their imperialist escapades but what makes now a better time than at any stage in the last nine and a half years to do it?

Been readin' chomsky?

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May 2 2011 23:56

double post

bastarx
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May 3 2011 00:08

How the Osama hit went down:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw0AXjAaf3g&feature=youtu.be

yoda's walking stick
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May 3 2011 00:16

http://www.slate.com/id/2292717/

yoda's walking stick
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May 3 2011 00:19

http://www.flickr.com/photos/35591378@N03/5680724572

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May 3 2011 00:39

Conspiracy-theorists seem to have a good opinion of their own ability to explain things. Could they then explain why the reaction of a liberal mainstream journalist like Bob Fisk, is so much more political than what they have to offer?

Robert Fisk: Was he betrayed? Of course. Pakistan knew Bin Laden's hiding place all along

Quote:
A middle-aged nonentity, a political failure outstripped by history – by the millions of Arabs demanding freedom and democracy in the Middle East – died in Pakistan yesterday. And then the world went mad.
[...]
But the mass revolutions in the Arab world over the past four months mean that al-Qa'ida was already politically dead. Bin Laden told the world – indeed, he told me personally – that he wanted to destroy the pro-Western regimes in the Arab world, the dictatorships of the Mubaraks and the Ben Alis. He wanted to create a new Islamic Caliphate. But these past few months, millions of Arab Muslims rose up and were prepared for their own martyrdom – not for Islam but for freedom and liberty and democracy. Bin Laden didn't get rid of the tyrants. The people did. And they didn't want a caliph.
[...]
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May 3 2011 00:43
Chilli Sauce wrote:
Reading my libcom profile I see ;)

Guilty as charged, it needed to be said though.

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May 3 2011 01:34

While we're on the subject, when we are talking about conspiracies involving things like 9-11, which I happen to believe, I'll just point it out, we can only look at one thing, evidence. This is where most theories, including the 9-11 theories, lack in most regards. In regards to any 9-11 conspiracy theory, the evidence must be of a particular kind, physical evidence.

Many people in the 9-11 truth movement, aside from being idiotic capitalist republicans of some variety, attempt to create elaborate political theories or justifications for the theory. Similarly those who oppose any theory regarding 9-11 use political theory itself "it seems unlikely that this would happen because it seems politically impossible".

Both of these groups ignore one thing, evidence we can observe on site. Most of the sane people in the truth movement point ONLY to physics and engineering based evidence which absolutely refutes the official story. What does that suggest politically, we don't know exactly (most pretend like they do) , but it seems suggests some form of conspiracy. Beyond that we know next to nothing. I'm not going to bring it up here, thats not what this threads about, and if people care (which in all honesty the people on this forum aren't obligated to, you're all pretty informed) they can do that.

But simply remember, if anyones going to start relating this to 911, use PHYSICAL tangible evidence, not factoids, otherwise we're just guessing in regards to analysis. Thats my two cents on the conspiracy connection.

--

With that in mind, lets apply that to the Osama murder case. So far I have seen no trustworthy evidence of any kind, thus as far as I'm concerned there is no basis for these claims. What does that say about the political system, well thats more complicated, but the primary deduction, that they seem to be lying, is a simple one.

Alexander Roxwell
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May 3 2011 03:03

Henry Kissinger is still alive.

Perhaps someone stepped on by this Imperialist swine could fly over the United States and drop a bomb on his house?

I wonder if Obama would mind?

I know it is different but tell me again.

Samotnaf
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May 3 2011 04:15

I don't hold with the 9/11 conspiracy theories. There are loads of other conspiracy theories which are simply crazy - eg that the recent tsunami in Japan was created by HAARP. And I suspect some of the insane excesses of conspiracy theories are themselves plotted in the dusty rooms of various secret services in order to knit a fog of confusion round the genuine conspiracies, to distract people along dead-ends and endless speculation. Not that you'd necessarily need these John Le Carré-types developing fantasies in this society dominated by fictive capital - such theories often develop spontaneously in the minds of isolated individuals feeling overwhelmed by a world and a life escaping their control, encouraged by those who churn them out on the internet as their part-time hobby.

But conspiracies DO exist.

On March 16, 1978, Italian Prime Minister Aldo Moro was kidnapped by the Red Brigades and killed 55 days later .

Quote:
Many in Italy believe that domestic or international government forces were complicit in the murder of Moro, who was due to sign a controversial agreement with the Communist Party on the day of his kidnapping.

(here)More importantly, the social crisis in Italy had developed so far that just a year previously, the CP-dominated local state of Bologna called out tanks against the insurgent youth movement, and the class struggle was hotting up in the factories.

In the UK in 1982 when another summer of riots, this time combined with rail strikes and nurses' strikes, was anticipated, the Argentinian ruling class (who had their own accelerating class struggle) were encouraged to invade the Falklands Islands by the withdrawal of the British battleship Sir Galahad, which had been protecting the islands and which had been moved there previously by Callaghan when the Argentinians had threatened to invade in the late 70s. This was Thatcher's chance to reverse her fortunes (she had the lowest support in the opinion polls ever up to that point, iirc). The war started on Friday, 2 April 1982, with the Argentine invasion and occupation of the Falkland Islands and South Georgia. On Saturday 3rd April the House of Commons met to authorise the use of troops and battleships etc, with Michael Foot getting into anti-fascist mode to support Thatcher. But at the end of the debate amidst uproar John Nott, Minister of Defence, gave the game away, "If we were unprepared, how is it that from next Monday, at only a few days' notice, the Royal Navy will put to sea in wartime order and with wartime stocks and weapons...preparations have been in progress for several weeks" (see Hansard, 3rd April 1982). Thatcher, a year later, won a landslide partly on the backs of defeating "the enemy without" as part of her plan to defeat "the enemy within".

ryuit:

Quote:
I think we need to put conspiracy theories aside here. Like all others of this magnitude i suspect that planning and carrying out a conspiracy like this would have far too many dangers and risks to make it worthwhile for those who wanted to. Think how many people would need to be aware it wasn't true. What if just one of those came clean and revealed the truth for some reason? It would be the end of the whole Obama administration and the highest military command. What are the benefits to make such a risk worthwhile?

I'd guess you'd only need a couple of men in the know to actually be there in front of "Bin Laden" in order to kill him, possibly making such a mess of his head as to make him unrecognisable. The rest of the assault team could have been easily kept in the dark, believing the reasons for the attack to be genuine. On the conspiracy-hatching end of the plot, you'd need quite a few more, but not that many, and besides their class interests would help make them keep stum. Your question "What are the benefits to make such a risk worthwhile?" I've already answered in my post 29.

Let's not get distracted by the web spun round 9/11 - its conspiracy stories. Keep our eye on the ball - ie on what's happening now.

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May 3 2011 04:17

It's a lot easier hiding something where only a few dozen paid high-clearance operatives and high-ranking officials had access to. 9/11 wasn't anything on that scale at all. You're not going to have hundreds of credible witnesses to it, victim's families, thousands of NTSB and FEMA agents on the scene, etc. For all anyone around Pakistan knows, including the guy who started tweeting it when he didn't realize he was, there was a big military operation attacking a house, and some people were killed. They haven't even kept the body - they threw it out to sea on a flimsy excuse.

Samotnaf
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May 3 2011 06:53

Ocelot refers to Fisk's article, in which he says at the end:

Quote:
Of course, if we are all wrong and it was a double, we're going to be treated to yet another videotape from the real Bin Laden – and President Barack Obama will lose the next election.

But this misses the possibility, as I said in post 29, that he died some time ago, which is a far more likely scenario (Obama's not that stupid as to pretend he's been killed with the chance he might return from the grave) and that his death has been saved for this historical moment.

Red-Metta
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May 3 2011 07:21

Well, the Pakistani government and the Western world have begun the acquisation - denial ritual, with Pakistani spokespeople claiming that they knew absolutely 'nothing' about Bin Laden's presence, even though he lived in an armoured compound right next to an army officer training college:

Pakistan Defends Bin Laden Role

On a conspiratorial note, The Asylum Mockbuster film, entitled 'The 9/11Commission Repor' contains an interesting dialogue. A group of old American men sit around a table discussing that there is a 70% chance of killing Osama Bin Laden. A young woman, also present, asks what are the chances of capturing him alive? After a pause for thought, one of the elderly men says 'around 30%' - so it looks as if the writing was on the wall for Mr Bin Laden sometime ago, even before the 9/11 attacks.

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May 3 2011 07:22

Kind of like a reverse-Kagemusha.

ryuit
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May 3 2011 10:08
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I'd guess you'd only need a couple of men in the know to actually be there in front of "Bin Laden" in order to kill him, possibly making such a mess of his head as to make him unrecognisable. The rest of the assault team could have been easily kept in the dark, believing the reasons for the attack to be genuine. On the conspiracy-hatching end of the plot, you'd need quite a few more, but not that many, and besides their class interests would help make them keep stum. Your question "What are the benefits to make such a risk worthwhile?" I've already answered in my post 29.

My guess would be it would take more people than you would think at the planning stage to implement this although granted you would only need a couple actually there to carry it out. I also don't deny that there are obvious benefits which accrue to the US, British, French etc. but if he has been dead for ages, why wait until now? Think of the political advantages for Obama if he had released this news six months ago right in the midst of the mid term elections. Or, going even further back, if they had done it only a few weeks after Obama launched his new 'surge' in Afghanistan, imagine the instant success he could have claimed. Why not do it a couple of moths ago when the Arab uprising first broke out and try and take the heat off that? I think much explanation is needed for why this particular moment is so significant in order to start believing these conspiracies

Samotnaf
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May 3 2011 10:32
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why wait until now?...Why not do it a couple of moths ago when the Arab uprising first broke out and try and take the heat off that?

As all-pervading as hierarchical power is, it too can be taken by surprise by events challenging its domination, and usually takes its time, and long discussions into the long nights, to work out the best moment to put its strategy into effect.
Besides, May and after has often been the occasion of social contestation springing into action, and clearly there's a global re-awakening that's rising after the long winters of cold bitter repressions; so pre-empting all that is very likely part of their thinking.

ryuit
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May 3 2011 11:05

The problem with this argument is that you are making an assumption that the Government is hiding something and then fitting a narrative around that. This seems to be the case with all conspiracy theories, decide the conclusion to begin with and then search for some 'evidence' which supports it. The truth is that no matter when bin Laden had been killed there could have been reasons found to suggest that it was a timely ploy by the government for some reason or another. Like i said, if he had been killed last October it would have been slammed as a move by the democrats to win the mid terms. Similarly if he had been killed at any stage in the last four months the argument which you put forward would still have been plausible.

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May 3 2011 11:23

I saw an article that argued that Obama had deliberately scheduled it to cut off the end of The Apprentice and screw Donald Trump. I wasn't convinced.
Obviously it's possible he could have previously died and this moment was picked for unknown reasons, I remember an article a couple years back that said that due to Bin Laden's health problems he'd probably died anyway but it served the interests of the Taliban Alqaeda etc to keep him as an active figurehead. The thing about most conspiracy theories is that they mix the bloody obvious, the slightly obscure, the downright implausible and coincidence together. Much like The Da Vinci code.

Samotnaf
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May 3 2011 12:04

The problem with your arguments is that you are making an assumption that the Government has nothing to hide and then fitting absoutely no narrative around that. Regardless of whether this conspiracy is one of the genuine ones or not (I'm not into most conspiracy theories, as you should know from my posts here), no-one has yet explained why they destroyed the body, why there's no genuine photo of the body, and why the assault and killing - according to anything I've seen so far - wasn't filmed close up. But then maybe you'll be able to come up with a mix of

Quote:
the bloody obvious, the slightly obscure, the downright implausible and coincidence

to explain why the official version of events is true. Because it just seems

Quote:
downright implausible

without any of the other stuff so far.

petey
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May 3 2011 14:49
Quote:
Quote:
How else can the GOP break the halo that this event has attributed to Obama?

by praising the special forces who carried the attack, who were executing a policy formulated by the bush white house. just don't mention obama. this will work for the hardcores

crikey i was right

Quote:
Describing bin Laden as "the public face of Islamic terrorism," Palin said American troops' "courage and their determination brought us justice." She went on to say, "We thank President Bush for having made the right calls to set up this victory."

palin