Nazis in CGT-E

121 posts / 0 new
Last post
MT
Offline
Joined: 29-03-07
Aug 19 2010 13:12

Robot pointed out the background of the Sevilla text very well. What remains is the use of a term "ideological". The fact is that CNT-E is political and ideological organisation when you read the Sevilla text. However, they do not tell you your ideology has to be this or that (anarchist, trockist, democratic, whatever...). So I would say, this is what they mean by the mentioned sentence where they speak about membership and being ideological. No big deal in fact...

And as for the CGT. Every organisation can be exposed to inflitration, be it state or from other political groups. However, it is true that CNT-E probably have better mechanisms to prevent such things. And even more when we are speaking about active militants as was the case of the fascist guy.

Volin's picture
Volin
Offline
Joined: 24-01-05
Aug 21 2010 10:39
Joseph Kay wrote:
Yes, but my point is the statutes of the CNT are ideological, so it's contradictory saying 'you don't need to have any ideology you just need to accept our revolutionary anarchist statutes'. Now maybe the point is members don't need to identify as anarcho-syndicalists, anarchists etc as long as they act like them. That would be internally consistent (and something I'd agree with). Maybe Sevilla are using 'ideology' to mean 'tight party line' rather than 'set of shared assumptions, values and goals', which would tend to the latter reading.

...not to pick on you personally, but you yourself raised a point on an ancient threat and it might be relevant here:

Joseph_Kay wrote:
how do you have a a mass, democratic organisation with revolutionary aims if the majority of the membership aren't revolutionaries? (a paradox faced by anarcho-syndicalists too, lest this be taken as an 'attack' on the IWW)

Whether or not the majority of the CNT membership consider themselves anarchists (and I'd assume they do, actually), what's to stop a situation developing where it grows to the point that revolutionaries become the minority? In any case, do non-political members genuinely act like anarchists?

Joseph Kay's picture
Joseph Kay
Offline
Joined: 14-03-06
Aug 21 2010 12:00

Well it's a potential problem. Typically, either internal democracy is sacrificed to maintain principles (barring Trots from office but not membership is a step away from all members being equal), or non-revolutionaries use the democratic nature of the union to do non-revolutionary things (there have been various splits and expulsions, some which fit this bill). I think the CNT mostly gets away with it due to a combination of factors; (1) there are larger reformist unions like the CGT you'd join if that was your inclination, (2) the historical reputation of the union as anarchist, so people hostile to anarchism don't join, (3) a recognition from more apolitical members that the effectiveness of the union comes from its anarchist approach, so they elect people who share that approach to local/regional/national positions.

But still, I think the CNT's approach flirts with creating a two-tier membership of more passive apolitical members and more active anarchists (which might be how bureaucracies begin, although there are plenty of checks), and they're probably storring up splits for the future - the big CNT/CGT split came after an influx of reformist members after the union was legalised. I'm not a 'FORAist' in the sense I don't think workers should be expected to have worked-out anarchist communist politics to join, but I think a revolutionary union isn't just a union, it's a revolutionary organisation, which means more than just joining to sort a problem at work then leaving again or retaining a passive membership. I think it's still possible to organise with workers who haven't joined, through workplace/unemployed committees and/or mass meetings/assemblies, and the CNT does do this too, and then those workers who are drawn to anarcho-syndicalist ideas and practices in the course of the struggle can of course join the union. I know the CNT-AIT in France has had some success like this.

fingers malone's picture
fingers malone
Offline
Joined: 4-05-08
Aug 21 2010 12:29

One of the biggest day to day problems in the CNT was that workers would join, get their problem sorted out, by people putting in a lot of effort on their behalf, and then leave. Either totally leave, or pay their subs but not go to any meetings or pickets. People think "I'm paying you, and you have to sort it out." They want a union that can protect them, but they resent devoting time to the union.

I'd agree personally that "members don't need to identify as anarcho-syndicalists, anarchists etc. as long as they act like them" but getting there is a big big problem. A lot of people want a "proper leader", they want someone who looks like he knows what he's doing, who is confident, experienced, strong, and they want to follow that person and abdicate responsibility to him. They want this because the whole of their experience in this society tells them that that's the way you get things done. (I'm saying him because it reflects reality, in Spain at least I think a lot of people automatically respect a man more. And in the political movement in Seville the great majority of the leaders are men. The CNT is actually less male dominated and sexist than a lot of of other groups.)
People don't have that much experience of non-hierarchical organising and so on, they are used to the massive social division of labour, the division into people who know things and people who don't, and to break that down requires a massive effort, which is difficult when to keep your union functioning at all also requires a massive effort. So the default position is to drift into an informal bureaucracy and hierarchy. I don't think that anything you can write into your constitution or aims and principles can resolve this problem.

Everything I've said applies to my experience of grass roots struggle in general, and to the union as one part of that, not to the union especially.

Valeriano Orobó...
Offline
Joined: 12-05-10
Aug 22 2010 11:54

I agree with what malone says above.

The split between CNT and CGT came basically because of what said before: participation in company's comittees and sindical elections which cnt rejected and cgt didn't.

According to a-las-barricadas ( http://www.alasbarricadas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=47570&start=75 ) CGT did started the mechanism to expel the nazis but before the assembly took place the nazis resigned. It is still disturbing tho to know that cgt were aware that these members were nazis beacause they were members of ccoo before who warned the cgt when those became members. It's important to know that cgt is a confederation of unions who have autonomy in their own branches. nevertheless is well known as well that cgt is filled with leftists with all the opportunism problems that come with it.

But i think threre is something more important than everything said before: in the last years ccoo and ugt have been losing affiliation while cgt have been winning it just as cnt and so. In a months time a general strike has been called and the cgt is for it and during this summer different voices in the socialdemocrats as well as in the right have been calling to approve a strike law that makes impossible a general strike. Facing a general strike draw your own conclusions of the convenience of saying that the most radicalised and growing of the non-anarchist unions, is infiltrated by nazis even if it has been.

If you look in the link above you'll see that even cnt comrades agree on this.

For the record, i'm no cgt member.

Anarchist Belgrade's picture
Anarchist Belgrade
Offline
Joined: 14-09-10
Sep 23 2010 10:42

Hm, I'm quite surprised that mr. Rata started this topic about collaboration with Nazis. I always believed that anarchists (at least real ones like mr. Rata) are not hypocrites. I guess that I was wrong. Here Rata is attacking people from CGT, for who I personally don't care much (union like all others), that they have Nazi members, that they collaborate with Nazis etc. etc. and in the same time he's the one who collaborates with fascists back in Serbia.

All anarchists in Serbia know that mr. Rata is collaborating with fascists group called "1389 Movement" (for more info about this organisation: http://www.1389.org.rs/ or http://sr.wikipedia.org/sr-el/%D0%A1%D1%80%D0%BF%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B8_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%82_1389) and that he saved them from police repression (he told them to hide from coppers in Church - http://www.1389.org.rs/17.mart.html).

Also, it's well know that ASI made sticker with nationalists (chetniks!) football holligans holding banner "Death to police, freedom to people!" (picture above)

Few Serbian (and Croatian) anarchists wrote statemant against this act: http://kontra-punkt.info/print.php?sid=56491. Some of them used to be members of ASI.

Maybe I should start another topic and call it: Nazi collaborators in ASI, or ASI as Nazi collaborators? wink

Death to political opportunists, fascism, capitalism and state.

black star Anarchist Belgrade black star

rata
Offline
Joined: 26-09-06
Sep 23 2010 11:15
Anarchist Belgrade wrote:
Hm, I'm quite surprised that mr. Rata started this topic about collaboration with Nazis. I always believed that anarchists (at least real ones like mr. Rata) are not hypocrites. I guess that I was wrong. Here Rata is attacking people from CGT, for who I personally don't care much (union like all others), that they have Nazi members, that they collaborate with Nazis etc. etc. and in the same time he's the one who collaborates with fascists back in Serbia.

All anarchists in Serbia know that mr. Rata is collaborating with fascists group called "1389 Movement" (for more info about this organisation: http://www.1389.org.rs/ or http://sr.wikipedia.org/sr-el/%D0%A1%D1%80%D0%BF%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B8_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%82_1389) and that he saved them from police repression (he told them to hide from coppers in Church - http://www.1389.org.rs/17.mart.html).

Also, it's well know that ASI made sticker with nationalists ([url=en.wikipedia.org/.../Chetniks ]chetniks[/url]!) football holligans holding banner "Death to police, freedom to people!" (picture above)

Few Serbian (and Croatian) anarchists wrote statemant against this act: http://kontra-punkt.info/print.php?sid=56491. Some of them used to be members of ASI.

Maybe I should start another topic and call it: Nazi collaborators in ASI, or ASI as Nazi collaborators? wink

Death to political opportunists, fascism, capitalism and state.

black star Anarchist Belgrade black star

This is a clear lie, and of course, as always with liberal politically illiterate people, they think that rumours, lies and hear-says are arguments and proofs. No, they are not. If you, or any of "all anarchists in Serbia" (read liberal punks) have any proofs that ASI ever cooperated with the Nazis or chauvinists (this 1389 imbeciles are not Nazis, they are chauvinists), or that ASI has published that sticker (even if I don't see a problem with it's content), present them.

This imbecile has linked to different sites and texts, but non of the linked texts nor sites back up anything he wrote. He just linked it because he saw that this is how we are doing things when we are claiming something - providing proofs for our claims, but he failed to understand that we give links to proofs, not to random websites.

In fact, if we want to talk about Nazis in Serbia, anybody who knows anything about their scene here knows that ASI is their main target and cornerstone of antifascist movement. We were many times physically attacked by them (and mainly managed to beat them back). Pictures of the Belgrade 6 members with tittles such as "Gallows for BG6" and similar are placed all over the city by BH/C18 guys, our members flats have been attacked and marked by them, leaflets against us were spread etc. All of this is visible on their internet forums, such as here:

http://www.ns-forum.com/t883
http://www.ns-forum.com/t862
http://www.ns-forum.com/t144-2/

their stickers/posters:


"For terrorists only prison"

"Tomorrow will be 666 of them! Solve the problem today!"

I am not really sure where this idiotic and stupid attack comes from, but I guess it's linked with the fact that some of us started denunciation of some pro-police liberals who wanted to organize "anarchist" bookfair with financial help of the State. We sent links and informations on this to many people, and I guess this is their pathetic way of responding...

rata
Offline
Joined: 26-09-06
Sep 23 2010 14:24

Here is a model of Nazi (Blood and Honour/C18 - "Anti-antifa") poster against our members (this one is directed against Ivan who is member of Belgrade local group of ASI and one of the BG6 comrades):

The poster, which was hanged in the building where he lives, and in his neighbourhood says:

Quote:
Know your neighbourhood!
Meet the enemies of Serbia!
Your neighbour Ivan V. - than his home adress

Ivan is a member of Anarcho-Syndicalist initiative. This are some of their actions:

- They destroyed the monument of Radovan Karadzic in "Nikola Pasic" book-store
- They wrote graffities "Serbia must die"
- They supported gay pride in 2001, and announced their coming to gay pride 2009 in support of sexual deviants
- Together with "Woman in black", gay organizations and the rest of bastards protested against March for unity of Serbia in 2008
- Created a video in which they call for blowing up of Djurdjevi stupovi (monastery)
- Destroyed billboards "Kosovo is Serbia" in 2008
- Throwed Molotov cocktails at the Greek embassy in 2009

Even after all of that they are free!
If the corrupted court will not judge them, there are those who will!
We know where you live, we know when you sleep!

It is clear, therefore, to anybody with a little bit of brain, that only police provocateurs and liberal bastards could claim that ASI is cooperating with the Nazis.

akai
Offline
Joined: 29-09-06
Sep 23 2010 15:35

Rata,
As you know there was quite a lot of discussion and accusations about this demo and the thing with the club made by people in Belgrade, including the people who signed this letter. I discussed it with one person and a member of ASI in Belgrade who said ASI did go to this demo against the police made by the nationalists in an attempted "intervention". I don't know if I agree with that type of tactic- unless it is done in a smart way that clearly totally fucks the nazis. But for some people going is like a sin. It's obvious that ASI is anti-nazi and even a target of the nazis, so I cannot figure out the whole point of this attempted "intervention" but given the bad will of so many people against ASI, you should know people will twist this against you.

rata
Offline
Joined: 26-09-06
Sep 23 2010 17:44
The Unabummer wrote:
I look forward to Rata knocking this person out.

As soon as we get his name comrade, as soon...

akai wrote:
Rata,
As you know there was quite a lot of discussion and accusations about this demo and the thing with the club made by people in Belgrade, including the people who signed this letter. I discussed it with one person and a member of ASI in Belgrade who said ASI did go to this demo against the police made by the nationalists in an attempted "intervention". I don't know if I agree with that type of tactic- unless it is done in a smart way that clearly totally fucks the nazis. But for some people going is like a sin. It's obvious that ASI is anti-nazi and even a target of the nazis, so I cannot figure out the whole point of this attempted "intervention" but given the bad will of so many people against ASI, you should know people will twist this against you.

Akai, the thing about that demo is the following - the cops killed a person in the car they stopped without any reason (this was later proved in the court - the cop got 7 years for that) - and via FB some individuals called for demos against police brutality in the centre of the city. It wasn't called by nationalists groups or organizations, but by anonymous group of people. ASI didn't make any decision about this, and some of ASI members individually, as well as some of non-ASI anarchists from Belgrade, went to the demo. It was a demo which was called by FB group, and of course it was clear that a load of nationalists will show up, as majority of population in Serbia, and Serbian youth is nationalist - if we want to do anything in Serbia, except stinking in our punk holes, we have to interact with people, meaning nationalists. Therefore some individuals went to the demo, with a banner they created beforehand which is presented at the photo ("death to police, freedom to the people"). This banner was than taken by the gathered people, and was carried as a banner of the demos. Some of the people on the demo were football hooligans, some were nationalists, and some were nazis. But, that is the reality of Serbia, and, as we want to change the reality we need to confront it. After the demos ended, police controlled nazis ("Obraz" organization) took their members (small part of the people gathered at the demo) to attack some gay club, but were prevented by the police. After that, some local anarchists, not ASI, created a sticker with the picture of this banner. That sticker was criticized in the letter which was signed by present day Serbian-SWP activist, left communist (ex-ASI member), several NGO activists and a Croatian anarchists who was kicked out of MASA. The critique is not directed at ASI, since ASI didn't create that sticker, but at anarchist who did it. It's a typical left-liberal ivory-tower critique of people without political line and understanding of reality.

We know that the only way to criticize us, when it's coming from the liberal "anarchists" or different post-modern leftists and NGO bastards is to twist the situation. But, as the proofs above show, we very well know who we are, and the fact that morons are trying to twist the reality to suit their critique doesn't bother us because they never have any proofs for that. What is essential issue here is a question of relation towards state repression against right-wingers. To get good with the EU, Serbian state started since one year or a bit more ago to prosecute the right-wingers that are not under it's direct control. ASI refused, while BG6 was in prison, and before and after that, to jump the wagon with the liberal morons who were cheering the State prosecution of the right-wing imbeciles, because we are capable of understanding that those actions are only making Serbian state stronger, and that that will reflect on stronger repression against our movement. Because of that we are criticized by the liberals, and tension is being build-up before the coming gay pride (10. 10), since most probably we are not going to support it as it turned out to be state and police organized event with more than 5000 (!!!!) cops securing it.

bastarx
Offline
Joined: 9-03-06
Sep 24 2010 09:45
Anarchist Belgrade wrote:
Few Serbian (and Croatian) anarchists wrote statemant against this act: http://kontra-punkt.info/print.php?sid=56491. Some of them used to be members of ASI.

That statement is about the demonstration and the subsequent sticker but it nowhere names ASI/Rata as those responsible.

akai
Offline
Joined: 29-09-06
Sep 24 2010 13:57

The accusations about this were made elsewhere - at least I have both read and heard them. Probably it is assumed that the readers of the statement are familiar with the incident, or at least what was being said about it.

With those FB things you have to be really careful since half the time there are really some organized political groups behind these calls pretending to just be some FB readers - at least here there were such situations.

Finally it's clear that if you are going to be at a demo with a load of nationalists, liberals, trade union bureaucrats or whatever, it is helpful not just to go along in a crowd with the same slogans, but also have some clear statements about why you are there, but distancing yourselves from the organizers.

rata
Offline
Joined: 26-09-06
Sep 24 2010 14:37
Peter wrote:
Anarchist Belgrade wrote:
Few Serbian (and Croatian) anarchists wrote statemant against this act: http://kontra-punkt.info/print.php?sid=56491. Some of them used to be members of ASI.

That statement is about the demonstration and the subsequent sticker but it nowhere names ASI/Rata as those responsible.

Of course it does not, since we didn't have anything to do with that. One more aspect of political illiteracy of those liberals is the fact that they, since they are not part of any real group or organization, can not distinguish between actions of organizations and actions of individuals.

And as Peter explained, the link they gave doesn't mention or deal with ASI or me personally, at all, just like with all other links that were provided. Such is the thing with this Highlander episode with me allegedly hiding those chauvinist morons from the cops into the church (??!?!?) and the link they provided - it's a link to the statement of that 1389 group which doesn't at all say anything about that imaginary event, but is their report from some Kosovo demonstrations they organized. In the age of internet translation tools I really don't know how stupid one has to be to provide "proofs" like that.

Akai wrote:
The accusations about this were made elsewhere - at least I have both read and heard them. Probably it is assumed that the readers of the statement are familiar with the incident, or at least what was being said about it.

What does this mean? If there was any proofs that ASI was involved in this, this imbeciles would have used it in their statement. You read and heard rumours and hear-says spread by the liberals. You might have also heard it from some ASI member who were not aware that it's important to underline that the people participate there were not doing it on behalf of ASI, but as I say if there was any proofs for that, it would have been used already by the liberals in their campaign against us. There is nothing that is linking ASI to that demos or sticker, except for the fact that some members of ASI, individually, on their own behalf, without any local group decision about it, went to the demos.

Akai wrote:
With those FB things you have to be really careful since half the time there are really some organized political groups behind these calls pretending to just be some FB readers - at least here there were such situations.

That's not the point. The point is that those demos were not organized by some nationalist group as it is claimed. It was spontaneously called demos (there was no organization of the demos) by some individual ACAB kids.

Akai wrote:
Finally it's clear that if you are going to be at a demo with a load of nationalists, liberals, trade union bureaucrats or whatever, it is helpful not just to go along in a crowd with the same slogans, but also have some clear statements about why you are there, but distancing yourselves from the organizers.

Maybe yes, maybe no, it depends on the context. In this case the slogan which was taken as a slogan of the demos, was created by anarchists, and it did convey anarchist message - Death to police, freedom to people.