More kids being alternatively schooled

348 posts / 0 new
Last post
arf
Offline
Joined: 25-11-06
Feb 28 2008 22:19
Quote:
Lists of supreme court justices whjo didn't go to school isn't something that impresses any of us.

To be fair there were comments on this thread to the effect of 'schooling is better than home ed because the rich and powerful mostly choose to do it' (schooling).

jef costello's picture
jef costello
Offline
Joined: 9-02-06
Feb 28 2008 22:19
arf wrote:
i think the bedingfields were homeschooled, but i didnt let it put me off grin

I'm pretty sure Dido was too smile

madashell's picture
madashell
Offline
Joined: 19-06-06
Feb 28 2008 22:25
arf wrote:
To be fair there were comments on this thread to the effect of 'schooling is better than home ed because the rich and powerful mostly choose to do it' (schooling).

If future, would you mind telling me what positions you're going to ascribe to me in advance? That way I can just post them up and save you the effort of twisting my words.

yuda
Offline
Joined: 4-12-04
Feb 28 2008 22:47
stella wrote:
I felt Homeschooling wasn't an option for me at the time, because I felt I couldn't afford to do it at first, and I wouldn't be able to cope.
But then I realised that you don't need to be rich to homeschool. Been 10 years now.

I'm assuming you're from the UK, just wondering how much support is there for homeschooling over there? I'm from New Zealand, we have some schools (both high and primary/intermedate) that support home schooling also there seems to be a good support network already in existance nationally

stella
Offline
Joined: 27-02-08
Feb 28 2008 23:02

Very little.
As far as the education department were concerned, I was on my own once I'd removed them from the system.But they would still assign an education officer to check their progress every six months, and basically; that was it.
The school sent many people to my house to discourage me from doing it.
One of them asked how many children I had, and when I said five. She said ''You'll be on your knees in a week"
That was ten years ago, and probably the worst thing she could have said[for her] /but best thing she could have said to me.Just made me more determined.

stella
Offline
Joined: 27-02-08
Feb 28 2008 23:06

Homeschooling was hard at first and I would have really appreciated the help back then and the support that seems to be available now.

Choccy's picture
Choccy
Offline
Joined: 9-12-04
Feb 29 2008 00:12

I thought you had "dyspraxia" Jack?

arf wrote:
i think the bedingfields were homeschooled, but i didnt let it put me off grin

Mental christians wink

Stella - again, it would help if you read the rest of the thread. It has been repeatedly stated that homeschooling isn't an option for most working class parents, be they single-parent, or two-parent set-up.
For a lot of families having a stay at home parent isn't feasible financially because both parents have to work (well, both my parents have work the same jobs since they were late-teens and still do, in their late 40s now).
My parents had to rely on extended family to look after us after school and during holidays because of work and my ma ended up switching to night-shift for 15yrs just so she could be at home when we got back from school. Homeschooling didn't even enter into the equation and would never have been an option. My parents did a decent job smile

Choccy's picture
Choccy
Offline
Joined: 9-12-04
Feb 29 2008 09:13

Dyspraxia is definitely made up.
I think I might have caught it of Revol though, shit must be contagious.

cantdocartwheels's picture
cantdocartwheels
Offline
Joined: 15-03-04
Feb 29 2008 09:29
stella wrote:
Last point on the matter

Successful &Famous People that were Homeschooled

etc

Surely some of those people are a good example of why people should have been sent to school, especially thomas jefferson who was completely messed up. His complete inability to socialise fed into both his actions and his ideology.
Anyways while i don't doubt that some people do well out of homeschooling, i don't really see how discussing anyone from before 1950 is particlarly relevant, hell if this was the 30's i wouldn't be letting my kids anywhere near school, but then you know today teachers aren't going to beat them with sticks, make them say hail marys and railing against the evils of socialism so i'd say theres beena bit of progress as far as education goes

cantdocartwheels's picture
cantdocartwheels
Offline
Joined: 15-03-04
Feb 29 2008 09:53
revol68 wrote:
ADHD is a crock of shit, the pathologising of children who can't or won't bootstrap themselves into shitty sterile unstimulating environment.

Na its just a blanket term a wide range of problems, much like the 'autistic spectrum disorder'' or ''dyslexia'' is used to describe a range of difficulties, largely because we're not scientifically advanced enough to fully understand some of these problems For sure its not a perfect description and sometimes your right other socil issues get blanketed into it but i don't really see how thats a reason not to use the term adhd to describe a set of behavioral problems that have a similar pattern.
Oh and I hope your not also going to claim autism and dyslexia are ''made up'' aswell roll eyes

Choccy's picture
Choccy
Offline
Joined: 9-12-04
Feb 29 2008 09:54

I had to say Hail Marys everyday for most of school, in fucking irish sometimes!!!!
fenian cunts

Choccy's picture
Choccy
Offline
Joined: 9-12-04
Feb 29 2008 09:56
cantdocartwheels wrote:
revol68 wrote:
ADHD is a crock of shit, the pathologising of children who can't or won't bootstrap themselves into shitty sterile unstimulating environment.

Oh and I hope your not also going to claim autism and dyslexia are ''made up'' aswell roll eyes

Maybe Gurrier was right about Revol being a Scientologist?

Joseph Kay's picture
Joseph Kay
Offline
Joined: 14-03-06
Feb 29 2008 10:00

you may have a point but i'm physiologically incapable of reading beyond 'maybe gurrier was right...' wink

Thora
Offline
Joined: 17-06-04
Feb 29 2008 14:15
Choccy wrote:
I had to say Hail Marys everyday for most of school, in fucking irish sometimes!!!!
fenian cunts

I had to say Hail Marys in German and French (and briefly in Year 4 in Welsh) and it never did me any harm!

Caiman del Barrio
Offline
Joined: 28-09-04
Feb 29 2008 16:36

O RLY?

madashell's picture
madashell
Offline
Joined: 19-06-06
Feb 29 2008 16:36
revol68 wrote:
Jack you do realise you just got a nice middle class syndrome rather than the plebian 'feckless, lazy bastard'.

Oh aye, dyspraxia is just lazyness. Do us all a favour revol, and shut the fuck up about things you don't understand.

Choccy's picture
Choccy
Offline
Joined: 9-12-04
Feb 29 2008 18:28
Thora wrote:
Choccy wrote:
I had to say Hail Marys everyday for most of school, in fucking irish sometimes!!!!
fenian cunts

I had to say Hail Marys in German and French (and briefly in Year 4 in Welsh) and it never did me any harm!

Hail Mary and Our Father in my case, and blessing ourselves. At one time I could say both prayers and bless myself in 4 languages - I don't whether that's good or bad.
No all I know is the first two lines in gaelic, and I can bless myself in gaelic and german. Pointless.

Choccy's picture
Choccy
Offline
Joined: 9-12-04
Feb 29 2008 21:56

It is just laziness though. Lazy pricks wink

madashell's picture
madashell
Offline
Joined: 19-06-06
Mar 2 2008 00:49
revol68 wrote:
not quite what I said now was it.

My mistake, you also said that it was "feckless" and "middle class".

Caiman del Barrio
Offline
Joined: 28-09-04
Mar 2 2008 00:56

No what Belfast said was that to the Working Class, dyspraxia is laziness and awkwardness.

madashell's picture
madashell
Offline
Joined: 19-06-06
Mar 2 2008 01:25
Caiman del Barrio wrote:
No what Belfast said was that to the Working Class, dyspraxia is laziness and awkwardness.

Which is a load of shit, if you know the slightest thing about it. This whole idea that learning difficulties are some conspiracy between middle class parents and teachers to protect lazy, middle class kids is bullshit, and isn't borne out by the real experiences of kids with learning difficulties, who are just as likely to come from poorer backgrounds as they are to be "middle class".

Frankly, it amazes me the ammount of otherwise intelligent, switched on people who buy into this rediculous crap.

Caiman del Barrio
Offline
Joined: 28-09-04
Mar 2 2008 01:41

I wasn't entirely agreeing with him (although there is a certain grain of truth in it, possibly), just I think you kinda misinterpreted him. I think you should be critical of diagnoses like ADHD and dyspraxia. I only have personal experience to go on here, but I think Ritalin's often used as a means of controlling unruly kids in a world of growing classes and more and more powerless teachers.

madashell's picture
madashell
Offline
Joined: 19-06-06
Mar 2 2008 01:59
Caiman del Barrio wrote:
I think you should be critical of diagnoses like ADHD and dyspraxia. I only have personal experience to go on here, but I think Ritalin's often used as a means of controlling unruly kids in a world of growing classes and more and more powerless teachers.

The trouble with stuff like this is that while it is true that learning difficulties (and ADD in particular) are over diagnosed and Ritalin is massively overused, there's a strong element of throwing babies out with bathwater.

There's a tremendous logical leap between saying that Ritalin is often used to control unruly kids with nothing wrong with them (it doesn't work that well anyway, some kids are a fucking nightmare on Ritalin) and saying that it should never be used at all, just as there is between saying that learning difficulties are overdiagnosed and saying that they don't exist at all.

It's particularly annoying for me, being that I'm dyspraxic and the biggest problem for me was my shitty hand eye coordination (which means that writing anything long hand is a pain in the arse), not some bollocks about me being too lazy. Though admittedly I am a lazy bastard, which is a separate issue altogether.

Pepe
Offline
Joined: 26-11-04
Mar 2 2008 10:57

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-scientology062990a,1,6085874,full.story?coll=la-news-comment&ctrack=1&cset=true

I don't think I know anyone thats been presecribed ritalin so I've got no info to make a judgement about oversubscription. But it seems likely that kids will be given drugs before they're given other therapies, from what I know about mental health treatment. I think thats an issue with NHS funding rather than The Man wanting to drug kids into submission though wink

Refused's picture
Refused
Offline
Joined: 28-09-04
Mar 2 2008 11:01

Wasn't revol saying that working class kids often don't get the luxury of having their behaviour safely categorised into a condition for which their parents can seek help that their middle class peers do?

Pepe
Offline
Joined: 26-11-04
Mar 2 2008 11:32

Ah right, yeah there probably is differential diagnosis by class.

I'm hoping Anna's gonna jump in and defend the evolutionary theory of ADHD any minute now wink

Anna's picture
Anna
Offline
Joined: 13-11-07
Mar 2 2008 11:55
Jess wrote:
I'm hoping Anna's gonna jump in and defend the evolutionary theory of ADHD any minute now ;)

Nah, that theory's a load of bollocks. Good paper dismantling it:

http://www.nel.edu/24_34/NEL243403L01_Matejcek.htm

The evolutionary approach to the issue of ADHD derives from the assumption that what is regarded as a pathological phenomenon today was once an adaptive response to the conditions of life in the ancestral stages of human development. The paper argues against this conception on the basis of the clinical picture of ADHD. The author believes that in the previous "natural" conditions the ADHD syndrome was even more of a maladaptation than in the "protective" conditions of present-day life.

Anna's picture
Anna
Offline
Joined: 13-11-07
Mar 2 2008 12:21
revol68 wrote:
I see the gobshines don't question the actual validity of ADHD as an actual syndrome, it's extremely loose circular diagnosis and it's role in medicalising behaviour that doesn't fit the needs of certain institutions and social relations. Hardly suprising though, critical thinking is just ideology and shit that gets in the way of 'super science' and the correct application of it's technology.

If you read the actual paper:

Quote:
As a term, ADHD is a relatively recent coinage which replaced the previous MBD or minimal brain dysfunction (see footnote) It has its advocates, but also many critics, myself included, who point out its disadvantages. To begin with, ADHD, as in fact any descriptive or symptomatic diagnosis, essentially says nothing more than what can be seen at first glance. The International Classification, in order to distinguish a normal condition from a pathological one, then must look for criteria that would express that only a certain, especially marked type of behavior deserves this particular diagnostic label. It is necessary to section off one extreme (oddly enough not the other one) from some kind of continuum. But why section off anything at all in the first place if a certain behavioral trait represents a continuum distributed in the population according to the Gaussian curve? The point is that things are somewhat different! Clinical experience shows that the extreme described today as ADHD does exhibit certain signs of pathology.
I still believe that the term MBD was factual, pertinent and practical, although it of course could not entirely avoid the difficulties of delimiting (still normal) function and (no longer normal) dysfunction. There will always be fuzzy borderlines. However the term MBD was definitely much easier to use when presenting arguments in front of the lay public (i.e. even teachers). It made it possible to explain that we are dealing with a special (unusual, peculiar) function of the brain, for which neither school nor the parents or the child alone were responsible, and so there is no use blaming anyone, but instead we have to look for help together.
Over a time things have cleared up due to using (as I believe) the clinical finding, including psychological tests, as a starting point and due to taking account of etiology and not only external manifestations. In clinical practice all these cases of encephalopathy, dysfunction and ADHD obviously look different from what they appear to be at the taxonomist's table.
...
The syndrome ADHD does not expressly include physical clumsiness today (which was still part of MBD), but in clinical practice it is of course in evidence. Actually everywhere we look we find difficulties: in motor coordination, in keeping balance, in right-left orientation etc. There are neuropsychological diagnostic schemes in use to measure this. For many of these children walking along a narrow path or throwing and catching something presents an insurmountable difficulty. They are far more prone to accidents and more frequently subject to medical care than other children. Moreover, they exhibit difficulties in articulation as much as in expression and communication - for these problems diagnostic schemes have also been developed.
...
Clinical experience clearly supports the idea that we are dealing not only with an end section of a continuum, but with something "more", i.e. a certain pathology the cause of which may be looked for in a mild damage of the brain, in genetically conditioned peculiar functioning of the brain, in short somewhere in deep biological structures.
Quote:
True, the world is full of "lively" and "highly active" children, inattentive children, or children precipitous in their reactions. We can come across them at every step. That is a different story, though. Anyone who has seen these children and ADHD children will never lump them together. The parents often say that their child cannot concentrate on "anything for a moment". But when we ask how long the child manages to play with something, how long he or she can manage to listen to a story or watch TV, we can see the difference at once. In one child it is a matter of seconds, in another it is half an hour, an hour or even longer. At school, even normal "highly active" children may be a problem, but we have different recommendations, different advice, different protective and supportive measures for them than for children with MBD or ADHD.

These basically healthy, agile and bright children may well be one of the "adaptive" genetic variations surviving from prehistory until today. Why not? But they are not children with ADHD (i.e. ADHD that deserves its place in DSM-IV), for although ADHD children are capable of survival and acceptable social integration in our contemporary refined and "handicap-friendly" environment, their chances in the prehistoric conditions would be rather slim. In sum, I think that we may turn Crawford and Salmon's argument around and say that ADHD is an acceptable adaptive behavior today, whereas in prehistory it was entirely non-adaptive.

Quote:
Also considering that ADHD is as common as rapists, how come we can start talking shit about rape being an adaption whilst ADHD isn't?

The question of whether either is an adaptation is valid. I doubt it for ADHD, and I don't know whether rape is or not, but looking at the evidence you can clearly see that ADHD is maladaptive, whereas rape could be, in some situations, adaptive. But the one thing that is certain is that ADHD has a genetic component, is real (though sometimes healthy children are misdiagnosed), and is not some capitalist social construct.

Pepe
Offline
Joined: 26-11-04
Mar 2 2008 12:27

I like this one.

http://www.samgoldstein.com/articles/articles6.pdf

Scathing cool

Anna's picture
Anna
Offline
Joined: 13-11-07
Mar 2 2008 12:47
Jess wrote:
I like this one.

http://www.samgoldstein.com/articles/articles6.pdf

Scathing cool

Yeah that one's good