More kids being alternatively schooled

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Choccy's picture
Choccy
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Feb 11 2008 00:42

I think we'd all agree about some non-governmental community type schools - this is a libertarian-communist board!

Out of curiousity - does anyone know of any studies on acheivement levels of alternatively schooled-pupils (be it home, Steiner, Montessori whatever)?
There must be something out there making comparisons with mainstream pupils in terms of jobs, college, uni whatever. I don't have time to do a literature search but if someone knew off-hand some stats I'd be really interested smile

petey
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Feb 11 2008 01:37

this is from a pro-homeschool site:
http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/default.asp

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Feb 11 2008 02:07
newyawka wrote:
this is from a pro-homeschool site:
http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/default.asp

Dude you might wanna double check that site - right wing christian cunts - the christian book-ad banner top right of the page should have made you a wee bit sceptical
See these are the people I actually have read about.
That group is run by Patrick Henry College - the private christian college that teaches EVERY class from a biblical perspective and were subject to the Channel 4 documentary God's Next Army in 2006 - it's properly mental shit.

Let's have a wee quick look at them
Home School Legal Defense Association
The organization is known (and often criticized, from both inside and outside the larger homeschool movement) for its ties to the Christian Right and its staunch advocacy for conservative political and religious causes.[2][3]
These cunts have a stated purpose to shape US society by injecting as many graduates as they can into US governmental positions and manage to get a shitload of their students government internships.

I haven't had a chance to read their "report" but given that they are mental pro-life, young-earth, conservative rightwing christians, MASSIVE PINCH OF SALT would be an understatement.

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Choccy
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Feb 11 2008 02:36
revol68 wrote:
Home schooling is a ploy by christians and other weirdos to get away with sexually abusing their kids.

In a home school no one can hear you scream!]

Na, the girl I mentioned is the one we were talking to outside my office the other day - she's totally sound and not mental, a bit of a liberal "ethical" type but properly dead-on and she wanted her kids homeschooled - they arent' like, the eldest just started mainstream primary. Saying that her and her husband are both doing phds so her kids are gonna grow up the kids of Malone rd academics probably wink

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Choccy
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Feb 11 2008 02:56

Thank fuck you came on this thread now I'll look like the sensible critic again. "Really Choccy, we expect this off Revol, but you should know better"
See it's all him.

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Feb 11 2008 09:08

hey Choccy what're your views on de-schooling?

Choccy's picture
Choccy
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Feb 11 2008 09:36

What's de-schooling? Sounds like some hippy shit wink
Tell me a bit about it please my friend.

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Khawaga
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Feb 11 2008 11:28

It is related to homeschooling and alternative schooling so it's a concept IMO you'd find interesting related to this.

The way I used it when I worked for this environmental NGO and in general with regards to education projects I've worked on is that you take education out of the school building and out of just theory. I.e. education is hands-on, inquiry based, out-doors and all that. E.g. this NGO I worked for taught kids science through actually doing stuff in the natural environment. If you're learning about solar energy you build a solar power go-kart e.g. which in turn needs a lot of know how from other disciplines. If it's about flora and fauna, get out of the school and explore it.

It's also been used very effectively amongst street children here in Cairo. A mate is running a project that actually takes the work the children do on the street as its point of departure (practically, not just theoretically). They're garbage collectors and sell recycled materials (or put garbage to different uses) so there's a host of subjects that they get practical experience with.

In a nutshell the argument is that education should be like this, learning by doing and that the institutionalized school of today is shite. I haven't read that much about it, but did so because of work (I was their communication worker so I needed to know the bare essentials to write BS about the NGO to get funding)

Wikpedia has a short entry on deschooling.

Quote:
Philosophically, it refers to the belief that schools and other learning institutions are incapable of providing the best possible education for some or most individuals. Some extend this concept beyond the individual and call for an end to schools in general. This is based on the belief that most people learn better by themselves, outside of an institutional environment, at a self-determined pace. This is the meaning of the term as used by Illich.

Another common criticism is that institutionalized schooling is used as a tool for the engineering of an ignorant, conformist working class through constant schedules and prearranged time blocks and one-size-fits-all teaching methods.

Practical alternatives arising in place of institutionalized learning have been free schools, unschooling at home and forming networks with other deschooling families and individuals.

There's a book by an Ivan Illich called Deschooling Society. Haven't read it, but maybe something for you.

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Feb 11 2008 11:51

Aye that Illich book was in my uni when i was training, never read it.

Of course people should learn by doing, why you need to call that de-schooling I don't know but yeah, sounds good.

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Feb 11 2008 12:10
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Of course people should learn by doing, why you need to call that de-schooling I don't know but yeah, sounds god.

Well, I guess it defines itself in opposition to mainstream schooling, and the fact that they want to get the students out of the school and into the wild. I prefer learning by doing or something like that.,

Randy
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Feb 11 2008 13:17
Choccy wrote:
...Of course people should learn by doing, why you need to call that de-schooling I don't know but yeah, sounds good.

Something similar is practiced in my area under the name unschooling. Most of those in my acquaintance who practice it, I think would not take offense at being called hippies (though they wouldn't label themselves as such, perhaps). Which has nothing to do with anything as far as i can tell, but some of you seem to think it significant.

I am not an advocate of unschooling. I love (earthy, not academic) literature, and calculus at its most abstract. I find theoretical physics engaging, and engineering a crashing bore. (I dropped out of engineering school ages ago--with passing grades, but drugs were killing me--and years later learned some actually useful stuff in technical school.)

On the other hand, there is some merit in the learn-by-doing approach, i just think the unschoolers take it too far, just as public schools don't use it enough. I think the ideal would be a mix of theory and practice, (kinda like a poltical mix of theory and tactical considerations. Come to think of it, that mix was probably why tech school was so beneficial!) I prolly use too much classroom lecture and not enough hands on, simply because of my own educational background. I teach best what i know best.

Disagreement over the right mix, is actually what prompted our withdrawal from the local DIY community school. Too much unschooling to suit our more (but not completely) traditional, academic curriculum.

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Choccy
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Feb 11 2008 13:21

see what you're talking about there sounds kinda cool

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Feb 11 2008 13:31
Quote:
I am not an advocate of unschooling. I love (earthy, not academic) literature, and calculus at its most abstract. I find theoretical physics engaging, and engineering a crashing bore. (I dropped out of engineering school ages ago--with passing grades, but drugs were killing me--and years later learned some actually useful stuff in technical school.)

Of course it depends on what the subject is. Nevertheless, in cases such as literature it is possible to un/deschool (same thing actually) it as well. E.g. if a novel is set in your local town it can be used to tell the wider history of the town through actually visting the places mentioned in the novel. For me, another part of deschooling (not that I am a staunch advocate, I have a fleeting interest in it and don't see it as very realistic under capitalism beyond the more well off folks) is to break down the rather arbitrary boundaries drawn between disciplines.

petey
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Feb 11 2008 14:08
Choccy wrote:
newyawka wrote:
this is from a pro-homeschool site:
http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/default.asp

Dude you might wanna double check that site - right wing christian cunts - the christian book-ad banner top right of the page should have made you a wee bit sceptical
...
etc and so forth
...

so, i take the time to find some kind of statistic, and preface the link by saying "this is from a pro-homeschool site", and you respond with this vomit? go fuck your mother.

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Feb 11 2008 14:10
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puke what parochial shite.

I'd rather stick class up my uretha than read a novel about my home town.

If we can't make literature relevant to kids we should give up now.

Ah, Revol you're so cute when you're trying to troll. You're just full of fuck all as always. I don't know who's worse now - you or Carousel. I think you'd even give Lem a good run for his money with what you're posting nowadays. Did you get a knock on the head so you lost both your intelligence and sense of humor? Your insults disguised as posts at least used to contain one of them before. How sad.

Mike Harman
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Feb 11 2008 14:28

revol, so between sitting in class learning a novel about your home town or walking 'round your home town during school hours, you'd rather be in class?

Do you disagree with visits to nature reserves and shite as well?

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Feb 11 2008 14:33
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eah apologies surely education and learning should be restricted to the immediately practical or local, why should kids be interested in a whole world of great literature when they can read some crap crowbarred in simply on the basis of it's locality or someother parochial aspect.

What about kids in Cairo reading Naguib Mahfouz? The problem with you Revol is exactly that your parochial, one of the more eurocentric posters on libcom. When I learnt about Norwegian children's stories and plays such as Peer Gynt in school in Norway you tend to move beyond your immediate locale. And in case your wee brain didn't get it, it was just an example of a pedagogic method. Again evidence to why your posts are just not fucking interesting anymore, there's just nothing to them, seems like you don't bother thinking anymore. And you're a fucking snob. Plenty of high lit out there that is very navel gazing and fucking crap. Are you some Bourdieuan cunt now?

And if you've read my posts you would see that I am no advocate of deschooling. Only reason I know it is because I worked with an organization that had some pedagogical methods that can be fit into the philosophy of deschooling. I practically know fuck all about it. So before you pass a judgement on it, maybe you should read up on it rather than basing your pathetic views on it on a couple of posts from what developed as a question to conor.

bugbear
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Feb 11 2008 14:34
newyawka wrote:
choccy wrote:
newyawka wrote:
this is from a pro-homeschool site:
http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/default.asp

Dude you might wanna double check that site - right wing christian cunts - the christian book-ad banner top right of the page should have made you a wee bit sceptical
...
etc and so forth
...

so, i take the time to find some kind of statistic, and preface the link by saying "this is from a pro-homeschool site", and you vomit this crap? go fuck your mother.

You realise you've just proven him completely right about quoting his posts out of context? It's like you read the first sentence of his post and steam started shooting out your ears, preventing you from dealing with the rest of his post that explained exactly why the stats you posted are rubbish. I'd like to see some decent stats too, but preferably from somewhere with half a chance of being somewhat impartial or neutral, rather than just nutters.

Why does having an interesting discussion always have to be such a struggle on here?

I was tempted to post a picture of the home schooled kids off that South Park episode, but we seem to have moved past the stereotypes bit of the thread so I'll leave it.

Edit: There's some stuff on studies in the wikipedia entry.

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madashell
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Feb 11 2008 14:37
revol68 wrote:
yeah apologies surely education and learning should be restricted to the immediately practical or local, why should kids be interested in a whole world of great literature when they can read some crap crowbarred in simply on the basis of it's locality or someother parochial aspect.

Nobody said anything like that though.

All that Khawaga said was that if something being taught had some particular relevance to the local area or local history, visits to sites related to the book would be a good idea. After all, if you lived in Salem, and you were teaching the Crucible, it'd be fucking madness to fail to take the opportunity to link the play into local history and sites of interest, surely?

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madashell
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Feb 11 2008 15:05
revol68 wrote:
no shit, except that sort of stuff happens now ffs.

It does indeed. What are you so upset about again?

petey
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Feb 11 2008 15:48
bugbear wrote:
You realise you've just proven him completely right about quoting his posts out of context?

er no, no i don't.

Quote:
It's like you read the first sentence of his post and steam started shooting out your ears, preventing you from dealing with the rest of his post that explained exactly why the stats you posted are rubbish.

trash methodology. all he did was argue that he didn't like the source because he disagrees with their religious attitudes. he made no inroads against the the stats themselves, which could be exactly correct. what he properly should have done is find some other statistics, which if different could, but might not, show that the stuff i linked to is wrong because the source is tendentious. but he didn't move his ass to do that. (btw i got that link from the wiki article in the first place).

i mean

Quote:
That group is run by Patrick Henry College ... it's properly mental shit.

is your idea of argumentation? maybe that's why it's such a struggle to have an interesting discussion here.

Quote:
I'd like to see some decent stats too, but preferably from somewhere with half a chance of being somewhat impartial or neutral, rather than just nutters.

once again, i put a caveat before the link. do you even read my posts, or do you just take what i say out of context?

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jef costello
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Feb 11 2008 16:27

PAtrick Henry College is the college that is explicitly training kids to defend creationism and is trying to get them into positions of authority across the country. It's a sinister institution.

Relevant stuff is great, my history teacher used to tell us loads of stuff about our local area and it was great. I always thought de-schooling was about 'undoing mainstream education'. Kids love learning and the way the school system is run this gets knocked out of them. I do my best as a teacher to try to make my students think and when I have kids I'll do the same for them too as best as is possible. I still think that they need the grounding and socialisation that school provides, as flawed as it might be. Also kids whose parents care about their education tend to get more out of school anyway.

I'd be interested in finding stats but they'd need to be controlled for lots of other factors and it'd be really difficult to measure acheivement unless they are reinserted into the state system at some point.

petey
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Feb 11 2008 16:42
jef costello wrote:
PAtrick Henry College is the college that is explicitly training kids to defend creationism and is trying to get them into positions of authority across the country. It's a sinister institution.

needless to say, i completely agree. that does not in itself make their claims about the rate of acceptance of homeschooled children to colleges inaccurate.

so, in an effort to move this forward, here are three more links i found. warning: one is from the christian science monitor, and another from the wall street journal, which, for some, will be all you need to know. but it's what google gave me.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0323/p12s01-legn.html

http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/20000501homeschoolchart9.asp

http://www.oakmeadow.com/resources/articles/WSJArticle.htm

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Feb 11 2008 16:42
newyawka wrote:
Choccy wrote:
newyawka wrote:
this is from a pro-homeschool site:
http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/default.asp

Dude you might wanna double check that site - right wing christian cunts - the christian book-ad banner top right of the page should have made you a wee bit sceptical
...
etc and so forth
...

so, i take the time to find some kind of statistic, and preface the link by saying "this is from a pro-homeschool site", and you respond with this vomit? go fuck your mother.

AHAHAHAHHA FUCK SAKE
If you knew anything about that group you would not cite their studies, believe me.
It should be fucking obvious that I meant so sort of independent study, oh I dunno maybe by say, an education research group or something - not rightwing christian nuts.
Fuck sake mate all you did was make a mistake, you posted a link (a terrible one mind) but fuck it you tried wink

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Feb 11 2008 16:45

Newyawka - cheers for the other links I'll have a look. Hopefully they won't be appalling non-starters like the first one.
I think you really don't realise how much of a fuck up you made with that first one.

You cannot quote shit statistics from mental groups and claim they're even worthy of anything other than derision.

petey
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Feb 11 2008 16:54
Choccy wrote:
Fuck sake mate all you did was make a mistake, you posted a link (a terrible one mind) but fuck it you tried ;)

talk about blowing hot and cold ... so why the snide response then? OBVIOUSLY i have no truck with the likes of patrick henry college. that was what altavista gave me (so i went to google to get others). ps - every comment i made about your tarring-by-association still stands.

bugbear
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Feb 11 2008 16:54
newyawka wrote:
Quote:
It's like you read the first sentence of his post and steam started shooting out your ears, preventing you from dealing with the rest of his post that explained exactly why the stats you posted are rubbish.

trash methodology. all he did was argue that he didn't like the source because he disagrees with their religious attitudes. he made no inroads against the the stats themselves, which could be exactly correct. what he properly should have done is find some other statistics, which if different could, but might not, show that the stuff i linked to is wrong because the source is tendentious. but he didn't move his ass to do that. (btw i got that link from the wiki article in the first place).

i mean

Quote:
That group is run by Patrick Henry College ... it's properly mental shit.

is your idea of argumentation? maybe that's why it's such a struggle to have an interesting discussion here.

Alright fair do's, I'll have a look at the studies they cite since their stuff does seem to be based on actual independent research rather than just their own views.

Quote:
Quote:
I'd like to see some decent stats too, but preferably from somewhere with half a chance of being somewhat impartial or neutral, rather than just nutters.

once again, i put a caveat before the link. do you even read my posts, or do you just take what i say out of context?

The 'this is from a pro-homeschooling site'? Well, yes it is but they also happen to believe in a lot of other fruity shit as well as homeschooling which understandably puts people off giving them any time at all. Fair's fair though, they do seem to cite proper studies and like I said I'll have to look at them, I agree it's not fair to chuck out independent research just because nutters tailgait on the conclusions. Then again, you could've made it a lot easier and just posted a link directly to the studies and cut out the religious nutter middlemen.

petey
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Feb 11 2008 17:06
bugbear wrote:
they also happen to believe in a lot of other fruity shit as well as homeschooling which understandably puts people off giving them any time at all.

i'm not saying that every factoid can be scrubbed clean of the odors of the source from which it comes. that these numbers come from patrick henry college, or something associated with it, rightly leads to skepticism, since, obviously, they have an interest in broadcasting success stories of homeschooled students, from which many of their cadres will come. but that doesn't mean they cooked the numbers, and it's a fundamental error to reject them out of hand.

Quote:
Then again, you could've made it a lot easier and just posted a link directly to the studies and cut out the religious nutter middlemen.

well excuuuuuuuuuuuse me!

Randy
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Feb 11 2008 18:41
Khawaga wrote:
...Of course (the balance between classroom and hands-on) depends on what the subject is

Absolutely. As I eluded to earlier, i teach language from the book, math from the book also but with applications throughout the day, and science mostly (though not exclusively) in the yard, field, or woods. Art (drawing or music) is mostly hands on, but with some study.

History and economics, i teach from the pulpit. wink

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Feb 13 2008 01:38

On a historical note there's the book The Modern School Movement:Anarchists And Education In The United States by Paul Avrich. It's an in depth look at the Schools that sprang up in the US based on the writings of Fancisco Ferrer after his execution in 1909.